Handgun mag >10 rounds question

[SkydiveGuy]

I am under the impression that any mags manufactured after Sept 1994 that held >10 rounds were banned for sale in MA by MA residents.

If a MA FFL sells you a new mag that holds >10 rounds, who is liable if you have a receipt from the store that sold it to you?

I thought that the person that possesses the "high cap mag" is responsible and not the dealer.

 

[Independence Arms]

It falls on the person in possession of the mag. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

 

[SkydiveGuy]

It falls on the person in possession of the mag. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

That is exactly what I thought.

 

[szaino]

The law bans the "sale or possession"... so either party can be held responsible for violating this law.

 

[Independence Arms]

Unless the mag has a serial number, there Is no way to trace any particular mag to any particular dealer, even with a receipt.
There are plenty of dealers out there passing off post ban mags as preban.

 

[ColdDayInHell]

It falls on the person in possession of the mag. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Yep. Saying "I bought this at a gun show, the guy told me it was preban" won't work.

The last gun show I went to I saw AR Thermold 30 rounders for 12$. I bought two of them and I didn't see a date on them but they are polymer. The only numbers on the bottom of the mag were model numbers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

 

[WPDC13]

Yep. Saying "I bought this at a gun show, the guy told me it was preban" won't work.

The last gun show I went to I saw AR Thermold 30 rounders for 12$. I bought two of them and I didn't see a date on them but they are polymer. The only numbers on the bottom of the mag were model numbers.

Just make sure they dont have the small circle of numbers and an arrow somewhere on it, that is a date code.

 

[Mike-Mike]

Unless the mag has a serial number, there Is no way to trace any particular mag to any particular dealer, even with a receipt.
There are plenty of dealers out there passing off post ban mags as preban.

OK meaning, that the dealer has plausible deny-ability but the person possessing the mag may still be screwed. Don't think YOU are safe possessing such mags due to lack of serial number.

 

[joeendris]

Yep. Saying "I bought this at a gun show, the guy told me it was preban" won't work.

The last gun show I went to I saw AR Thermold 30 rounders for 12$. I bought two of them and I didn't see a date on them but they are polymer. The only numbers on the bottom of the mag were model numbers.

Just make sure they dont have the small circle of numbers and an arrow somewhere on it, that is a date code.

Handgun mag baseplates can be bought today, as the restriction isn't on them, it's on the body of the mag, IIRC. So the date code doesn't mean poo, on the baseplate.

 

[Kevlar]

I am under the impression that any mags manufactured after Sept 1994 that held >10 rounds were banned for sale in MA by MA residents.

If a MA FFL sells you a new mag that holds >10 rounds, who is liable if you have a receipt from the store that sold it to you?

I thought that the person that possesses the "high cap mag" is responsible and not the dealer.

Both are in violation of the law.

The FFL would be in violation of MGL 140-123, Clause 16 (penalty contained in MGL 140-128).

The purchaser would be in violation of MGL 140-131M (penalty contained within).

 

[drgrant]

I am under the impression that any mags manufactured after Sept 1994 that held >10 rounds were banned for sale in MA by MA residents.

If a MA FFL sells you a new mag that holds >10 rounds, who is liable if you have a receipt from the store that sold it to you?

I thought that the person that possesses the "high cap mag" is responsible and not the dealer.

Yes, posessor is always liable in criminal terms.

The dealer can face penalties too, as there is another law they can violate for selling you a postban LCAFD.

In practice prosecution of either is patently rare.

-Mike

 

[johniac7078]

I would like to know a couple of things. First, has the high-cap, I call it normal cap, law ever been enforced? Second, how do you deal with magazines for open guns? Thanks.

 

[ColdDayInHell]

I would like to know a couple of things. First, has the high-cap, I call it normal cap, law ever been enforced? Second, how do you deal with magazines for open guns? Thanks.

Absolutely. The law is backed by a federal offense if you're caught with a post-ban hi capacity magazine. I wouldn't risk having one even if you think a LEO won't know the difference.

I don't understand your question, how do you deal with magazines for open guns? What?

 

[Kevlar]

...has the high-cap, I call it normal cap, law ever been enforced?

Yes.

The law is backed by a federal offense if you're caught with a post-ban hi capacity magazine.

It's not a Federal offense, though a conviction would render one a prohibited person.

I don't understand your question, how do you deal with magazines for open guns? What?

It's a competition gun (a [strike=.]class[/strike] division of USPSA/IPSC, IIRC).

 

[IPSC_DRL]

I believe he is referring to guns specifically designed for the "Open" Division of USPSA/IPSC. (Remember, Divisions relate to equipment, "Class" relates to one's skill)

Most all of the popular "Open" division guns are built on the STI/SVI/Tripp platform which has been around for many years.

Older, pre-ban magazines are easily sourced from states OTHER than MA/NY/NJ/HI, etc where citizens are free to use new stock.

Hope this helps.

 

[bill o]

I would like to know a couple of things. First, has the high-cap, I call it normal cap, law ever been enforced? Second, how do you deal with magazines for open guns? Thanks.

The same way you deal with hi-caps for any gun: get pre-bans. Blasters aren't special in that respect.

 

[Shevchenko]

every time I've seen a shop selling a gun that comes with a >10 rd mag they go in the back to neuter it before allowing the customer to take it, just assumed this was standard practice

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

every time I've seen a shop selling a gun that comes with a >10 rd mag they go in the back to neuter it before allowing the customer to take it, just assumed this was standard practice

Not just one, but two similar thread necros.

 

[DW357]

every time I've seen a shop selling a gun that comes with a >10 rd mag they go in the back to neuter it before allowing the customer to take it, just assumed this was standard practice

How do they neuter the mags? I've got some mags with 3D printed blocks at the base of the mag spring that I purchased from a dealer. No one knows if that will suffice if I were to get jammed up. I've epoxied the floor plate and basepad but even that hasn't be tested in court. It's a crapshoot I guess.

 

[Shevchenko]

Not just one, but two similar thread necros.

no idea how/why i saw this post haha had no idea it was from a decade ago, whoooops

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

Both are in violation of the law.

The FFL would be in violation of MGL 140-123, Clause 16 (penalty contained in MGL 140-128).

The purchaser would be in violation of MGL 140-131M (penalty contained within).

MGL 140-123 says NOTHING about magazines. nothing! not a single sentence regarding magazine capacity.
MGL 140-128 says NOTHING about magazines. All it says is that there will be penalties for selling firearms(not magazines) by an unlicensed dealer/person.
MGL 140-131M talks about large capacity magazines but it says nothing about magazines reworked/modified by a dealer to become a non-large capacity mag. In other words, if a dealer sells you a Magpul AR mag that has been reworked/modified to accept no more than 10 bullets, it is a regular magazine.

The modification question of magazines is no different from the modification of an AR to become Mass-compliant. As long as the dealer can modify the part to be compliant, it is compliant. The most important aspect here is WHO can work on a magazine to make it Mass compliant. The individual must be able to legally possess large-capacity magazines in MA AND manufacturing license. As a non-manufacturer, an individual cannot go to NH, buy a large capacity mag and modify it themselves prior to bringing it back to MA. It must come from a dealer. To protect yourself, keep the purchase receipt to prove that the magazine was indeed sold by a MA FFL.

So yes, you FFL's can turn a large capacity mag into a 10 rounder and re-sell it. They won't get in trouble legally if they do. Not even a little. On the other hand, you as a buyer must be able to prove that the magazine was a 10 rounder since the day you bought it(ie: KEEP THE RECEIPT!)

 

[DW357]

MGL 140-123 says NOTHING about magazines. nothing! not a single sentence regarding magazine capacity.
MGL 140-128 says NOTHING about magazines. All it says is that there will be penalties for selling firearms(not magazines) by an unlicensed dealer/person.
MGL 140-131M talks about large capacity magazines but it says nothing about magazines reworked/modified by a dealer to become a non-large capacity mag. In other words, if a dealer sells you a Magpul AR mag that has been reworked/modified to accept no more than 10 bullets, it is a regular magazine.

The modification question of magazines is no different from the modification of an AR to become Mass-compliant. As long as the dealer can modify the part to be compliant, it is compliant. The most important aspect here is WHO can work on a magazine to make it Mass compliant. The individual must be able to legally possess large-capacity magazines in MA AND manufacturing license. As a non-manufacturer, an individual cannot go to NH, buy a large capacity mag and modify it themselves prior to bringing it back to MA. It must come from a dealer. To protect yourself, keep the purchase receipt to prove that the magazine was indeed sold by a MA FFL.

So yes, you FFL's can turn a large capacity mag into a 10 rounder and re-sell it. They won't get in trouble legally if they do. Not even a little. On the other hand, you as a buyer must be able to prove that the magazine was a 10 rounder since the day you bought it(ie: KEEP THE RECEIPT!)

Paging @CrackPot

 

[CrackPot]

MGL 140-123 says NOTHING about magazines. nothing! not a single sentence regarding magazine capacity.
MGL 140-128 says NOTHING about magazines. All it says is that there will be penalties for selling firearms(not magazines) by an unlicensed dealer/person.
MGL 140-131M talks about large capacity magazines but it says nothing about magazines reworked/modified by a dealer to become a non-large capacity mag. In other words, if a dealer sells you a Magpul AR mag that has been reworked/modified to accept no more than 10 bullets, it is a regular magazine.

The modification question of magazines is no different from the modification of an AR to become Mass-compliant. As long as the dealer can modify the part to be compliant, it is compliant. The most important aspect here is WHO can work on a magazine to make it Mass compliant. The individual must be able to legally possess large-capacity magazines in MA AND manufacturing license. As a non-manufacturer, an individual cannot go to NH, buy a large capacity mag and modify it themselves prior to bringing it back to MA. It must come from a dealer. To protect yourself, keep the purchase receipt to prove that the magazine was indeed sold by a MA FFL.

So yes, you FFL's can turn a large capacity mag into a 10 rounder and re-sell it. They won't get in trouble legally if they do. Not even a little. On the other hand, you as a buyer must be able to prove that the magazine was a 10 rounder since the day you bought it(ie: KEEP THE RECEIPT!)

Self delusion is a wonderful drug.

MGL 140 121 “Large capacity feeding device”, (i) a fixed or detachable magazine, box, drum, feed strip or similar device capable of accepting, or that can be readily converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition or more than five shotgun shells; or (ii) a large capacity ammunition feeding device as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(31) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994. The term “large capacity feeding device” shall not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber ammunition.

Your absolute certainty is entertaining but ultimately a case of self delusion. The bolded language in the statue is the issue. What does readily converted mean? A ffl declaring it to be modified and compliant does not make it so. I can tell stories for days about FFLs selling unlawful items. I have my opinions on what this language means and as a MA dealer act accordingly. But a feisty DA, activist judge and 12 soccer moms named Karen could feel otherwise and ruin my year.

This is not a topic where absolute certainty is warranted.

 

[Quite_Exasperated]

If it feels good just do it..

 

[drgrant]

MGL 140-123 says NOTHING about magazines. nothing! not a single sentence regarding magazine capacity.
MGL 140-128 says NOTHING about magazines. All it says is that there will be penalties for selling firearms(not magazines) by an unlicensed dealer/person.
MGL 140-131M talks about large capacity magazines but it says nothing about magazines reworked/modified by a dealer to become a non-large capacity mag. In other words, if a dealer sells you a Magpul AR mag that has been reworked/modified to accept no more than 10 bullets, it is a regular magazine.

The modification question of magazines is no different from the modification of an AR to become Mass-compliant. As long as the dealer can modify the part to be compliant, it is compliant. The most important aspect here is WHO can work on a magazine to make it Mass compliant. The individual must be able to legally possess large-capacity magazines in MA AND manufacturing license. As a non-manufacturer, an individual cannot go to NH, buy a large capacity mag and modify it themselves prior to bringing it back to MA. It must come from a dealer. To protect yourself, keep the purchase receipt to prove that the magazine was indeed sold by a MA FFL.

So yes, you FFL's can turn a large capacity mag into a 10 rounder and re-sell it. They won't get in trouble legally if they do. Not even a little. On the other hand, you as a buyer must be able to prove that the magazine was a 10 rounder since the day you bought it(ie: KEEP THE RECEIPT!)

Lol

 

[Rob Boudrie]

A MA dealer may possess banned mags. The exemption is triggered by the MA dealer's license; not the FFL.

There is no "manufacturer license" for magazines. If I am wrong, please correct with specifics. If you only work on mags and do not take guns in for work, it's unlikely to meet the state or federal definition of gunsmithing.

As to the reversibility of conversion back to > 10 rounds ..... nobody knows where the line is. Anyone who claims to is both arrogant and guessing.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

Your absolute certainty is entertaining but ultimately a case of self delusion. The bolded language in the statue is the issue. What does readily converted mean?

So your interpretation of "readily converted" is ok but someone else's is "delusion". Got it!

The way to test your argument is to extrapolate it to other prohibited areas. For example, a full-auto sear can be 3d printed(files are out there, I just haven't bothered to look). From the size of the part, I suspect it will take 2-3 hours on a modern 3D printer. 2 hours to print, and 2 minutes to install and you have a full-auto AR. In other words: every AR in Massachusetts can be readily converted to a machine gun. By your argument, this makes every AR owner a felon! Even the "pre-Healy" or "pre-94" ARs.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

2 3/4" round 4340 bar stock can be readily converted into a wide body 2011 if you have the right tools.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

2 3/4" round 4340 bar stock can be readily converted into a wide body 2011 if you have the right tools.

I am waiting for someone to release 3d models of a 1911 so I can make some aluminum chips on my CNC mill! mine is a basic 3-axis one so I'll have to cut LOTs of jigs for all the operations need to cut a frame but it would be amazing to have cut my own frame from scratch!
Aluminum Glock frame anyone!?

 

[drgrant]

So your interpretation of "readily converted" is ok but someone else's is "delusion". Got it!

The way to test your argument is to extrapolate it to other prohibited areas. For example, a full-auto sear can be 3d printed(files are out there, I just haven't bothered to look). From the size of the part, I suspect it will take 2-3 hours on a modern 3D printer. 2 hours to print, and 2 minutes to install and you have a full-auto AR. In other words: every AR in Massachusetts can be readily converted to a machine gun. By your argument, this makes every AR owner a felon! Even the "pre-Healy" or "pre-94" ARs.

He responded that way because your post was filled with falsehoods and declarations not grounded in reality. People will respond like this when it sounds like some bullshit overheard at a box store.

"It must come from a dealer" Seriously? You really need to stay in your lane.