Has anyone ever modifed a 1911 like this?

[rattletrap1970]

I was thinking the other day about all the tricks that are employed to make a match 1911. There are so many sliding fits and tolerances to take into consideration. I was wondering if anyone had ever modified a 1911 so the sights were directly ON the barrel. It would seem to me you would obviously have to make a custom barrel. I don't think that would be any huge deal. You would also need a small slot in the top of the slide to allow clearance of the rear sight block. An elongated barrel 6" or 7" to allow the attachment of a front sight (and to increase the sight radius due to moving the rear sight forward).
Now I could be wring here, but I would think that this would remove almost all of the influence that the tolerances and fits of the gun have on accuracy. This would of course be a specialized gun for bulls eye or something of that sort. I would love to hear from some folks that have done accuracy work on 1911's if this is do-able.
And please, can we not turn this into an, "Oh god how could you desecrate a 1911" or "Why would you want to do this?" thread.

 

[TBalls]

It would seem to me that having something clamped or otherwise mounted directly to the barrel could cause some issue due to the heat produced. And while it wouldn't be subject to the same type of recoil a slide-mounted sight would, I'd assume the forces experienced by being essentially mounted directly to the chamber could cause accuracy issues without some type of fixed setup.

I'm as far from an expert as you can get, but these were a couple of things that came to mind. I'm sure anyone with more knowledge will agree or disagree as necessary.

 

[M1911]

How are you going to remove the barrel from the slide?

 

[Stef]

What's the supposed upside to this Frankenstein? Any benefit you get from moving the front sight out you negate by moving the rear sight forward.

 

[stencil]

The proposed shroud relief appears at precisely the region where the engagement lugs are placed in a stock 1911. That would require re-engineering the positions of the lugs and the barrel pivot. The mass lost in the shroud relief, and the mass gained by the barrel due to lenthening and the attachment of the sights, will affect slide velocity and that will impact on extraction and feeding.
The acceleration of the barrel will increase the failure rate of the sights (vide "airgun sights.")
Yes, affixing the sights directly to the barrel and lengthening the barrel will result in improved accuracy, but at the expense of from-scratch re-design of the weapon; you probably would end up with a gas-operated handgun.
.

 

[Moderator]

What's the supposed upside to this Frankenstein? Any benefit you get from moving the front sight out you negate by moving the rear sight forward.

With the sights mounted to the barrel, the accuracy of the gun lies in the shooter and the barrel. The eliminates the chance of error of "play" in the action.


Dang I wish I still had Pro-E, I'd love to mark that up a bit.

 

[Kurtz]

In theory the front site should work on the barrel, there would need to be a groove or indent so the site ends up in the same place after disassembly.

 

[rattletrap1970]

Ok, here are a couple things. One, it isn't a frankenstein anything. It would be purpose built for bulls eye. This is just an exercise in seeing whether match accuracy can be attained without going through all the fitting issues normally associated with accurizing a 1911, or at least going about it in a different way.
The barrel can be removed by removing the front sight. A double "D" shape would be cut to locate the front sight without it being mis aligned. The lugs might have to me re-located but remember this is for target shooting so the loads would be light anyway. The velocity difference between the barrel and slide can be adjusted with recoil springs and link timing.

Stef, the reason the front sight was moved forward on a longer barrel was to make up for the sight radius lost my moving the rear sight forward. Essentially your sight radius is the same as before.

I used to work in Pro-E, now I use Solidworks. Much friendlier I think.

The proposed shroud relief appears at precisely the region where the engagement lugs are placed in a stock 1911. That would require re-engineering the positions of the lugs and the barrel pivot. The mass lost in the shroud relief, and the mass gained by the barrel due to lenthening and the attachment of the sights, will affect slide velocity and that will impact on extraction and feeding.
The acceleration of the barrel will increase the failure rate of the sights (vide "airgun sights.")
Yes, affixing the sights directly to the barrel and lengthening the barrel will result in improved accuracy, but at the expense of from-scratch re-design of the weapon; you probably would end up with a gas-operated handgun.
.

 

[M1911]

The barrel can be removed by removing the front sight.

Really? That rear sight looks too big to fit through the ejection port of the slide.

On most 1911s, you push the barrel down a bit, and slide it out through the front of the slide. You can't do this with your design, as the rear sight won't fit. Even after removing the front sight, you can't remove the barrel by pulling it to the rear as the breech face is in the way.

Maybe I'm just confused, but I'm not seeing it.

 

[saltydude]

I was wondering if anyone had ever modified a 1911 so the sights were directly ON the barrel.

Yes. The Sight Tracker from Infinity firearms. It's on the Mass approved target roster. I wanted to pick one up last year but can't justify the $ right now. Not sure exactly when they came out but I remember seeing one for the first time about 8 years ago. There are also some custom pistol smiths building these now.

 

[rattletrap1970]

You are correct, with the dovetailed sights you wouldn't be able to remove the barrel.I have given it more thought and I think a removable rib (kinda like that old Bo-Mar one) but it would attach to the barrel itself. Kinda like that infinity in the picture above, but the rib would attach to that raised area on the barrel. I'm just wondering how much inherent accuracy that takes care of.

 

[marvelshooter]

I am not sure what level of accuracy you are looking for but I can see what you are trying to accomplish. In Bullseye pistol most people who mount a red dot scope use a slide mount over a frame mount for the very reason you want to mount the sights directly on the barrel. With the slide mount the scope stays lined up with the barrel even if the frame to slide fit is less than optimal. With a frame mount the fit is critical to accuracy. For most people, a gun with a slide mount scope and reasonably well fitted barrel bushing will shoot better than they can.
My two cents,
Dan

 

[saltydude]

The concept on having the sight mounted on the barrel is more about speed than accuracy.
The theory is to limit the movement of the front sight (even if it's only mili seconds). In competitive shooting (not bulls eye) front sight & target acquisition go hand & hand. This small advantage IMO only comes into play for an advanced shooter. Another reason I have'nt got one yet LOL.

 

[rattletrap1970]

I have actually shot a Marvel conversion. A guy at the range let me borrow one and I have to say, I was astounded at how accurate it was. Very impressed indeed.
I don't currently have a .22 Bulls Eye gun and am holding out for a pardini (As I don't have a really good 1911 frame to throw a marvel conversion on).
I never shot .45 bulls eye because I never had a gun I thought was good enough to be competitive so the idea of making a 1911 with barrel mounted sights has simply been an interest of mine for a very long time.

 

[TheRoland]

I don't see why this would improve accuracy. I guess the theory is to see if the barrel isn't returning to the same place every time, the front sight would now reflect the new point of impact? Because of the obvious trigonometry problems, that's only going to work if the rear sight is also on the barrel, which... I guess you've done?

Weird. I think you may have issues with the slide deforming under repeated pressure, given a cutout like that.

I also think it might mess up the timing of the recoil. The 1911 is pretty sensitive to changes in timing, and increasing the mass of the barrel that much might not go over well without messing with springs, the barrel link, etc.

 

[rattletrap1970]

I will supply a new model when I have some time. The original drawing did not take into consideration the loss of material from the locking lugs. I think a setup like the Infinity shown above would be a better direction to go in as it has a nice heavy bull barrel and the raised section of barrel (which interlocks with a slot in the FRONT of the slide). So I guess my question would be: "If you bolted a long rib with front and rear sights on it to the top of that barrel would it "most likely" be more inherently accurate even with less accuracy work done to the rest of the pistol?"

But yes, it has always been my understanding that much of the cost, labor and time required to make a 1911 into a "Target Grade" pistol is spent tightening up fits and clearances to assure that the slide and barrel always return to the exact same locations because the sights are not located ON the barrel. So a good deal of your accuracy is lost when they don't return to their exact locations.

 

[Greg Derr]

The sight you are thinking is very old school, look up BoMar rib and you will see it. Accuracy is a combination of a number of factors, like barrel quality,frame to slide fit,ammo quality. All are related to accuracy.The initial OP image is a nice cad drawing, but not workable in the real world due to stresses in recoil vs mass of the sight. Keep working on it though, you may find the next hot mod for the -1911.

 

[rattletrap1970]

The sight you are thinking is very old school, look up BoMar rib and you will see it. Accuracy is a combination of a number of factors, like barrel quality,frame to slide fit,ammo quality. All are related to accuracy.The initial OP image is a nice cad drawing, but not workable in the real world due to stresses in recoil vs mass of the sight. Keep working on it though, you may find the next hot mod for the -1911.

Accuracy is not dependent on frame to slide fit if you no longer require the barrel to return to the same place. This reduces the variables to ammo consistency, barrel quality, and trigger. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Greg Derr]

A few have tried a blowback action with a fixed barrel, the issues is still the amount of recoil you produce. Search "Dragon gun" by Ed Masaki, he was working on a fixed barrel blow back, which shot a few years ago. Remington Mae a blow back .45 80 years ago in prototype form. Keep at it though.

 

[rattletrap1970]

I'm not necessarily looking for a blowback action, I do think there are ways sights can be mounted directly to the barrel though.