Has anyone used wolf ammo in an ar15?

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Its the bi metal jacket that causes barrel wear, isnt it?
Barrel wear isnt that much of an issue for non percision shooting...

If bi metal wear was a huge issue why are we not hearing the cry from the M1 garand shooters and the bimetal jackets used on the HXP M2 ball ?
My take is this.... if the bimetal jackets are wearing out barrels on ARs how about AK's ? I have over 6k rounds of 80s Vintage (mostly corrosive) through my mak90 and just as much through my SKS and the bore looks fine and I can shoot about 5 moa with either one. I don't see 10k rounds being much worse.

Now I'm not running my guns super hot all though I have done many mag and drum dumps with the AK and I ran 100 rounds once as fast as I could with the SKS....

So as far as I know the wear is not a issue with bi metal with the garands and AKs so is the AR barrel whimpy or what?

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Well shit, at .24 ppr i guess that is a deal...

Most of my barrels at 700-$1000 each, but i dont care about barrel life

Your running a 700-1000$ barrel on your AR really?
 
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Well shit, at .24 ppr i guess that is a deal...

Most of my barrels at 700-$1000 each, but i dont care about barrel life

Your running a 700-1000$ barrel on your AR really? I know Lilja barrels are running 400plus but really if your shooting a AR with a match barrel at 400$ plus your wasiting money running wolf or any of the M193/m855 common fodder Crap out there... what's the point of a .5 moa barrel on a AR if your shooting 3-5moa ammo.

In the end if you have a AR and want to run steel try it. If it runs in your gun your GTG.
If it doesn't you can twist your brain as to why or try other ammo.
 
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MGnoob

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The ones for my .223 beltfed (which is an AR) are almost 1000 with sights and handle for swapping hot barrels. I have 3 barrels for this.

My HK setup barrels do cost 1000 ea, which should be showing up in about a month and a half
I ordered that one with 6 barrels. (2 for each caliber 5.56,7.62x51,7.62x39)
This rnns either disintegrating or non disintegrateing links.
I plan to run primary wolf steel x39 in the x39 setup with nondisintigrating belts.. no links or brass to pick up

Even with barrels that expensive wear from steel ammo isnt a real concern when you factor the cost of 10s of 1000s of rounds.
 
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MGnoob

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As far as barrel bi metal barrel wear ,6k rounds through a barrel is nothing.

My barrels , full auto belt dump or mag dumps didnt really start showing wear till 20-25k rounds
But these arent your typical pencil profile barrels either..
Would bimetal accelerate this?i have no proof that it will, but a strong gut feeling it will.im sure others have actual data

I only have ever shot out 1 standard ar barrel. It took about 30k rds. Some steel wolf, some factory brass, mostly reloads
No maintaince other than multiple douchings of CLP
 
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Bore wear expectations depend on your needs, usage and therefore the tolerance.

I have rifles that will get between 700 and 1600 rounds usage before being considered "worn out". Obviously, these are high accuracy rifles, and I will say they aren't skinny barrels by anybody's standards. But, coming off, they may actually outperform other people's needs and standards.

In other words, it all depends on what you're doing with them, and how much accuracy you need.

And, yes, it's all a relative situation, not many hard and fast rules here.
 

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Very true, what i found interesting was how much a group opens up from heat. Im definitely not a sub moa guy. But a 2-300 round belt dumps effect on accuracy is pretty dramatic
 
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The ones for my .223 beltfed (which is an AR) are almost 1000 with sights and handle for swapping hot barrels. I have 3 barrels for this.

My HK setup barrels do cost 1000 ea, which should be showing up in about a month and a half
I ordered that one with 6 barrels. (2 for each caliber 5.56,7.62x51,7.62x39)
This rnns either disintegrating or non disintegrateing links.
I plan to run primary wolf steel x39 in the x39 setup with nondisintigrating belts.. no links or brass to pick up

Even with barrels that expensive wear from steel ammo isnt a real concern when you factor the cost of 10s of 1000s of rounds.

So,these are specialty barrels.... would you say other than some added machine work for handles and I assume quick change capabilities that's the reason for cost increase. Not so much "better" barrels ...
I only know a few people personally with full auto M16 and he runs steel cased and seems to have a endless supply of norico 223... it's about all I ever see him shoot.
Although I have not seen him since the machine gun shoots ended the man with the mini gun used what ever he had in the bucket....
It's all good find ammo your guns like and buy as much of it as you can.

In the end if your looking to shoot cheap factory ammo with the intention of shooting smaller groups
Wolf gold 55 and 75 grain is very good for the money
PMC has done well by me also.
PPU match was a good buy when I was not reloading.
I also get decent sub 2MOA groups with 223 rem soft points.green and yellow box.
For blasting and close range "hits on target" I run the cheapest shit I can find.
 
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Very true, what i found interesting was how much a group opens up from heat. Im definitely not a sub moa guy. But a 2-300 round belt dumps effect on accuracy is pretty dramatic

That's why you have accuracy by dispersion...little here little there[laugh]

Heat does play games... one of my garands is a real tester when shooting for groups... start right then as she gets hot drops low and walks left and up. It will somewhat settle down by shot 20 shooting a shot every 35 seconds of so.
I know it's not as extreme but my K98 will start to drift up as it gets hot. A good 3-4" depending on how fast I push it...

- - - Updated - - -

Bore wear expectations depend on your needs, usage and therefore the tolerance.

I have rifles that will get between 700 and 1600 rounds usage before being considered "worn out". Obviously, these are high accuracy rifles, and I will say they aren't skinny barrels by anybody's standards. But, coming off, they may actually outperform other people's needs and standards.

In other words, it all depends on what you're doing with them, and how much accuracy you need.

And, yes, it's all a relative situation, not many hard and fast rules here.

Would you run steel cased ammo through your rifle? Do you think steel cased ammo would wear out your rifle faster...
Now why does your barrel loose its or your required accuracy in 7-1600 rounds. Is it do the nature that your loads are on the brink of over pressure, bullets up against the lands pushing the limits of chamber pressure. Really hot burning powder that just eats the throat out?

There is so much that plays into it... but if your going to shoot your guns enough to wear them out its part of the game.

If you want to save wear and tear on your rifles reload some really soft shooting stuff.
I'm working on cast loads for my RRA A2 just because... my goal is to have just enough mmph to cycle and get 2moa accuracy out to 200 yards...just for fun.
Close already with the garand with cast. Accuracy not really there yet.
My guess is I need a bigger dia bullet to fit the thraot/lead a little better? I have full function at 36 grains of H4895 but 5 moa accuracy .

All fun and lots to learn everyday. Have fun
 
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MGnoob

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So,these are specialty barrels.... would you say other than some added machine work for handles and I assume quick change capabilities that's the reason for cost increase. Not so much "better" barrels ...

Being proprietary pretty much always means more expensive. Are they better than regular ar barrel?well ya, but until you own something with quickchange barrels you dont know what your missing.it more than just being able to change hot barrels. If you interested in knowing more details pm me because now im going way way off topic. edit.... the barrels are a 4 position adjustable gaspiston setup
Beyond being quickchange they do seem to be a quality product, not that the barrel that ive ruined (sig516) wasn't...ive got to send it back to sig (propietary barrel nut and rail incompatible with standard barrel nut)Just keep putting it off, its hardly useable at 50 feet..ive kinda been waiting to break my first bolt in it or somthing it pretty much a wall hanger at this point. Or i guess a flash and noise maker.


Whenever i hear about barrels being changed out before 5 or 10k rounds....like by real shooters, it makes me wonder how long id have to practice for me to even be accurate enough that its the gun thats not hitting where i want.
I guess 10k rounds is alot of rounds if your firing them one at a time and trying.

Somone who is doing this isnt plinking at 100 yards or firing steel case bi metal through their gun.



I read on the Internet some people with similar setups to several of mine have a trouble with wolf.
Maybe its because all my guns are setup for lower power reloads wolf runs fine... although 55grains is one of my least favorite weights
 
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MGnoob

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That's why you have accuracy by dispersion...little here little there[laugh]

Heat does play games... one of my garands is a real tester when shooting for groups... start right then as she gets hot drops low and walks left and up. It will somewhat settle down by shot 20 shooting a shot every 35 seconds of so.
I know it's not as extreme but my K98 will start to drift up as it gets hot. A good 3-4" depending on how fast I push it...

- - - Updated - - -



Would you run steel cased ammo through your rifle? Do you think steel cased ammo would wear out your rifle faster...
Now why does your barrel loose its or your required accuracy in 7-1600 rounds. Is it do the nature that your loads are on the brink of over pressure, bullets up against the lands pushing the limits of chamber pressure. Really hot burning powder that just eats the throat out?

There is so much that plays into it... but if your going to shoot your guns enough to wear them out its part of the game.

If you want to save wear and tear on your rifles reload some really soft shooting stuff.
I'm working on cast loads for my RRA A2 just because... my goal is to have just enough mmph to cycle and get 2moa accuracy out to 200 yards...just for fun.
Close already with the garand with cast. Accuracy not really there yet.
My guess is I need a bigger dia bullet to fit the thraot/lead a little better? I have full function at 36 grains of H4895 but 5 moa accuracy .

All fun and lots to learn everyday. Have fun

I just reread this. I cast and copper plate my own projectiles and i suspect are why im seeing better barrel life
My results have been improving im at pretty much a 4 inch group at 230yards... so 2 moa?
62 grain projectile, 23g ramshot xterminator or ramshot xtac acheives approx 2600-2800fps depending on barrel should put you pretty close if you dont get leading, you can coat the projectiles but will be harder to get to 1 moa.. .223s are a trick to cast and get accurate results that function an ar setup forfactory ammo.

Im looking forward to working up .308
 
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Would you run steel cased ammo through your rifle? Do you think steel cased ammo would wear out your rifle faster...
Now why does your barrel loose its or your required accuracy in 7-1600 rounds. Is it do the nature that your loads are on the brink of over pressure, bullets up against the lands pushing the limits of chamber pressure. Really hot burning powder that just eats the throat out?

There is so much that plays into it... but if your going to shoot your guns enough to wear them out its part of the game.

If you want to save wear and tear on your rifles reload some really soft shooting stuff.
I'm working on cast loads for my RRA A2 just because... my goal is to have just enough mmph to cycle and get 2moa accuracy out to 200 yards...just for fun.
Close already with the garand with cast. Accuracy not really there yet.
My guess is I need a bigger dia bullet to fit the thraot/lead a little better? I have full function at 36 grains of H4895 but 5 moa accuracy .

All fun and lots to learn everyday. Have fun

Which gun?

One of my AR's I have fired steel cased ammo through. Same with the AK and SKS. The other AR's I haven't, but I certainly would.

Now, those rifles aren't the ones that go 700 to 1600 rounds before needing a barrel change.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words. So, here's a pic of some of those rifles. A couple of them have been restocked or scopes added/changed. Most of them run non-standard ammo, so buying ammo for them is basically out. You're just not going to find this stuff, especially with turned necks and therefore special chambers. Some are just special calibers to start with. There's two 222's, a 6x47, a 22 BR, a 219 Donaldson Wasp and either a 6x250 or 30 IHMSA there. There's also a few more similar rifles like those here. Those rifles shoot less than .5 MOA, a few of the around .25 MOA. That's why they wear out fast.

IMAG0042.jpg
 

MGnoob

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After rewatching the torture test and hearing barrels keyholing after 6000 shooting semi.... that sounds awful
I wont be shooting any bimetal from new barrels, but i cant see the harm of blasting cars and pumpkins with worn out barrels.
And im well on my way to having several beater barrels.

I guess i forgot how bad that stuff is.. but for you typical bougth an AR, shot it a couple times and put it away never to be used again gun owner.. i guess it makes no diference.
And for the gun guy who does shoot and can change a barrel without having to go set by step on youtube, regular barrels are cheap.
 
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After rewatching the torture test and hearing barrels keyholing after 6000 shooting semi.... that sounds awful
I wont be shooting any bimetal from new barrels, but i cant see the harm of blasting cars and pumpkins with worn out barrels.
And im well on my way to having several beater barrels.

I guess i forgot how bad that stuff is.. but for you typical bougth an AR, shot it a couple times and put it away never to be used again gun owner.. i guess it makes no diference.
And for the gun guy who does shoot and can change a barrel without having to go set by step on youtube, regular barrels are cheap.

Yup and if you wear it out you should save enough shooting cheap ammo to afford a new barrel...
Think like this even if the barrel cost 200$ after 6k rounds that's only .03 cents per shot...
Now I wonder how well a higher quality barrel would muster.
Something chrome lined with a harder steel. The gunnrunner test uses remington built bushmasters and God really knows how the quality of the barrel really is.
 

MGnoob

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I agree about the price per shot, and thats what made me rethink trashing a new barrel on them.
.10 per shot just just doesnt make it practical to me...
 
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And for the gun guy who does shoot and can change a barrel without having to go set by step on youtube, regular barrels are cheap.

I do my own lathe work, and have for a while now. So, final tapering, fitting and chambering only cost me time and a little electricity (and I have a bunch of reamers).

Top quality barrel blanks (bored, rifled and rough tapered) cost around $315 and up, to maybe $500. Most of the better ones are on the lower end of that.

Remember, these are heavy barrels, stainless steel and match grade, as in Hart, Krieger, Chanlynn, Lilja and Bartlien.
 
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Both are wolf. Green one is an old laquered case, but normal size. Right round is newer polyformance. Take a guess when I stopped buying anything wolf. Except for .22 lr match ammo. Somehow they nailed that one
 
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Both are wolf. Green one is an old laquered case, but normal size. Right round is newer polyformance. Take a guess when I stopped buying anything wolf. Except for .22 lr match ammo. Somehow they nailed that one

Have to remember wolf does not make anything they simply contract out to manufactures.
Wolf match extra was made in Germany when I was buying it years ago.
Their ammo can be made anywhere. Thailand, salvia, philipeans, Russian, Ukraine and so on.

Im curious to know if both these rounds would pass a case gauge test ?
Also which one is wrong ?
Also if you have any wolf left over and a receipt they will refund you for the un used portion if your not happy.... Back in 2008 we sent back 3 cases of wolf match because it was aweful... velocity was all over the place. They sent out a prepaid label and all we had to do was call UPS for a pick up. 4 weeks turn around we had the refund.
 
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years ago (maybe ten) I used the Wolf lacquered stuff and goo from those rounds eventually caused the rounds to get stuck so they would not extract in my Bushmaster HBAR AR15 . The polyformance stuff, on the other hand, seems fine.
 
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years ago (maybe ten) I used the Wolf lacquered stuff and goo from those rounds eventually caused the rounds to get stuck so they would not extract in my Bushmaster HBAR AR15 . The polyformance stuff, on the other hand, seems fine.

im not buying the lacquer thing.... I just don't see how the lacquer is only a problem in 223 and not AKs or SKS I put many thousands of rounds through my AK sometimes with in one weekend and never had any gumming of the action or chamber. Brother did a few drum dumps also...we had one case head separation at the tail end of drum 3. That's when we relised what the funny looking thing in the tool kit was
 

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Most AK's have looser tolerances than most AR's and they were designed for steel case ammo. An AK also shoots much cleaner and cooler (in the chamber anyway) being a piston gun.
 
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Most AK's have looser tolerances than most AR's and they were designed for steel case ammo. An AK also shoots much cleaner and cooler (in the chamber anyway) being a piston gun.
Im not buying it even with loose chambers after a few thousand rounds it should have some sort of build up....
Im curious if the ak was indeed designed for steel cased ammo? thinking Russian it was designed for use with anything they could form into a case!

there ae some who claim the poly coatings cause more issues than the laquer
When the plain zinc jacket and plated cartridges start showing up that will be a entire new debate... yeah the zinc will be destroying barrels even quicker


TulAmmo USA recognizes that there is a great deal of confusion and misinformation out there about our transition to a zinc jacketed bullet as opposed to copper. Much of the confusion centers around the benefits of zinc as a metal, and the manufacturing methods used. To put it simply, there are three primary reasons for zinc:



Cost - Zinc is far more cost-effective to produce than copper. With ever-increasing economic pressures, we felt it to be imperative to investigate ways of maintaining costs while also maintaining quality and performance.

Fouling - while our bullets have always traditionally been clad in over a thin steel veneer encasing the lead core, copper has a tendency, especially at rifle velocities to shed residuals into the rifling. This can build up and affect performance. Zinc, on the other hand, is harder than copper, resists shedding of residuals and is also self-lubricating due to its chemical properties.



Accuracy - another characteristic of copper is that its softness allows for more deformation of the jacket before exiting the muzzle. This can affect point-of-impact and consistency. Zinc resists this deformation and contributes to more reliable shot placement.

now the zinc plated case like silver bear and colt branded stuff is another story and debate also

I think if steel cased ammo was a problem hornady would not waste time making it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21iqJ3GA9bs

 
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Most AK's have looser tolerances than most AR's and they were designed for steel case ammo. An AK also shoots much cleaner and cooler (in the chamber anyway) being a piston gun.

I've had zero dirty chamber issues in my AK, with steel or brass cased ammo, including lacquered.

I have had to clean AR chambers, using lacquered steel cased ammo, but that wasn't the gun's or the ammo's fault. I was seeing how much abuse it would take before needing cleaning. The answer is a LOT. Well in excess of 1000 rounds, in my case. Truth be known, the AR wasn't designed for lacquered steel cased ammo, or not cleaning it periodically. And, yes, so you know, I run brass cased ammo through them (I have several) these days.
 
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Im not buying it even with loose chambers after a few thousand rounds it should have some sort of build up....
Im curious if the ak was indeed designed for steel cased ammo? .

More like the other way to. The AK came out originally before the bulk of steel cased ammo, I think you'll find. If so, then steel cased 7.62x39 was designed to run in the AK.
 

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Every time you fire that AR it's shitting hot, dirty soot right where it eats. Adding coated cases to that hot, dirty mess is less than ideal. AK does not shit where it eats. Also the AK case is tapered, aiding extraction. Further the AK design includes a more robust extractor and the piston extracts rounds more forcefully. Really no comparison. AR is designed for brass case ammo. Steel is fine for plinking.
 
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Every time you fire that AR it's shitting hot, dirty soot right where it eats. Adding coated cases to that hot, dirty mess is less than ideal. AK does not shit where it eats. Also the AK case is tapered, aiding extraction. Further the AK design includes a more robust extractor and the piston extracts rounds more forcefully. Really no comparison. AR is designed for brass case ammo. Steel is fine for plinking.

Yes it sure does and I wish I had a digital camera when I had my first AR and put 3500 rounds of any steel cased stuff I could find before a cleaning.
STAG H2 bought in Oct 2008 and grabbed 5k rounds of assorted steel case ammo just before Obama sale 1.
It's all fun if it works run it. If you like it run it.
 
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Have to remember wolf does not make anything they simply contract out to manufactures.
Wolf match extra was made in Germany when I was buying it years ago.
Their ammo can be made anywhere. Thailand, salvia, philipeans, Russian, Ukraine and so on.

Im curious to know if both these rounds would pass a case gauge test ?
Also which one is wrong ?
Also if you have any wolf left over and a receipt they will refund you for the un used portion if your not happy.... Back in 2008 we sent back 3 cases of wolf match because it was aweful... velocity was all over the place. They sent out a prepaid label and all we had to do was call UPS for a pick up. 4 weeks turn around we had the refund.

The round on the right is out of spec. Thanks for the info about returns. I may try that.
On another note, my mini 14 never had any problems with wolf steel. My AR's both shot it well but eventually had empty shells glued into the chamber (YHM and windham bushmaster). It must be a DI vs piston thing
 
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The round on the right is out of spec. Thanks for the info about returns. I may try that.
On another note, my mini 14 never had any problems with wolf steel. My AR's both shot it well but eventually had empty shells glued into the chamber (YHM and windham bushmaster). It must be a DI vs piston thing

Will that round chamber? I see the difference I'm just wonder if the cases would both pass a case gauge?

I'm guessing Stoner was well aware of the DI system and it's potential to have some build up of crud from its design. Although I'm thinking he had the foresight to see it being used with out maintenance for extended periods of time.
Any how I have seen enough ARs eat steel with out issues.

Now if your spending 2k plus on a fancy AR that's supposed to be something special then maybe steel is not the best thing for you.

What I have found is that steel cased ammo can run on the slow side vs 5.56 m193/855 specs.

Tula was the slowest I ever put over the crony. 20" barrel never exceeded 2850fps.. 55 grain. Yet the 200 rounds I shot did with out issue. Accuracy was horrible though 6moa average.

I run a mix of steel and brass through my RRA A2 1/9 5.56 chamber chromemoly steal barrel. Have about 600 rounds through it( I don't shoot this one much) no issues yet. I run a oil patch down the bore when I get home and a quick wipe...
What's silly is I have been more disappointed with more expensive ammo than cheap shit
 
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