HI - Insane Gun Laws - And We Think MA is Bad!!

[Len-2A Training]

For those that think MA is terrible wrt gun laws/2A issues, get a load of this.

This poor guy is required by HI law to provide his medical records to their licensing authority and the fact that his provider refused (HI apparently never heard of HIPAA?) they revoked his existing license and are forcing him to give up all his firearms (that he was licensed to possess).

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_6/1853654_NEED_HELP_ASAP_2A_RIGHTS_BEING_VIOLATED.html

Here's the revocation letter they sent him.

http://i.imgur.com/DoMfuo4.jpg

Hawaii is a great place to visit, but I certainly wouldn't want to live there for a second!

 

[Chevy 2 65]

Why are all the real nice places so ****ed. I hope he gets a really good attorney

 

[greencobra]

the letter said it was looking for a "medical clearence letter" from the doc. this could be as simple as a letter saying the doctor finds no medical reasons that the applicants gun rights should be revolked. where does it say they are looking for medical records? just asking.

 

[browncoat]

I'd like to point out that Hawaii doesn't require a license to possess firearms, so this was not a case of license revocation. This policy by Honolulu requiring letters is a new thing, and I don't think the other islands are doing it.

That is one of the advantages that Hawaii has over MA. The other advantage is that there is no capacity limit on rifle or shotgun magazines and there is no AWB that applies to rifles or shotguns.

The biggest disadvantage relative to Massachusetts is that there is no concealed carry.

 

[falcon123]

the letter said it was looking for a "medical clearence letter" from the doc. this could be as simple as a letter saying the doctor finds no medical reasons that the applicants gun rights should be revolked. where does it say they are looking for medical records? just asking.

You're right but that's not the point. Do they require a medical letter for all constitutional rights?

 

[browncoat]

You're right but that's not the point. Do they require a medical letter for all constitutional rights?

This is in the same federal court as California, so that wouldn't be a stretch.

 

[jhblaze1]

Why are all the real nice places so ****ed. I hope he gets a really good attorney

They don't want the locals to arm up and get any ideas about taking their island back.

 

[robjax]

HI is just a bunch of anti california transplants...But on poster in that other forum had it right...I think. He asked Kaiser and not his doc. Or does the doc work for Kaiser? All he might need to do is make an appt. for his doc and see if the doc. will write the letter.

The thing that is stupid about that is the doc may think he will be held responsible if the guy goes nuts and hurts someone. So because of that potentiality the doc might refuse. Then you get another doc.

stupid, stupid, stupid law/requirement.

 

[browncoat]

Why are all the real nice places so ****ed. I hope he gets a really good attorney

Yes. The law that Honolulu PD is basing their policy on says the following:

No person who (1) Is or has been under treatment or counseling for addiction to, abuse of, or dependence upon any dangerous, harmful, or detrimental drug, intoxicating compound as defined in section 712-1240, or intoxicating liquor;

(2) Has been acquitted of a crime on the grounds of mental disease, disorder, or defect pursuant to section 704-411; or
(3) Is or has been diagnosed as having a significant behavioral, emotional, or mental disorders as defined by the most current diagnostic manual of the American Psychiatric Association or for treatment for organic brain syndromes;
shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor, unless the person has been medically documented to be no longer adversely affected by the addiction, abuse, dependence, mental disease, disorder, or defect.

Essentially, HPD is assuming that everyone on the island is subject to 1, 2, or 3 and must prove that they are not. This policy should be hard to support because it puts the burden of proof on the applicant and not the state.

 

[not new guy]

I imagine the antis with an MD are taking full advantage of the opportunity to screw over gun owners.

 

[Len-2A Training]

the letter said it was looking for a "medical clearence letter" from the doc. this could be as simple as a letter saying the doctor finds no medical reasons that the applicants gun rights should be revolked. where does it say they are looking for medical records? just asking.

Did you read his post, or just what I posted (the revocation letter)? He explains what happened.

HI is just a bunch of anti california transplants...But on poster in that other forum had it right...I think. He asked Kaiser and not his doc. Or does the doc work for Kaiser? All he might need to do is make an appt. for his doc and see if the doc. will write the letter.

The thing that is stupid about that is the doc may think he will be held responsible if the guy goes nuts and hurts someone. So because of that potentiality the doc might refuse. Then you get another doc.

stupid, stupid, stupid law/requirement.

Kaiser is probably an HMO where you see the "doctor of the day" as your PCP, thus he asked Kaiser for the letter and they refused.

Yes, many doctors are scared about liability and will refuse such letters. My former chief required this of all first-time applicants in the town (even if a renewal from another town) and was proud of it.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Why are all the real nice places so ****ed. I hope he gets a really good attorney

Not as nice as you think. My son in Alaska bought some land away from the tourist areas and built a small house to spend the winters in a couple of years ago. Since then the house has been cleaned out twice and now it's for sale. The cops there could care less. Jack.

 

[robjax]

Did you read his post, or just what I posted (the revocation letter)? He explains what happened.




Kaiser is probably an HMO where you see the "doctor of the day" as your PCP, thus he asked Kaiser for the letter and they refused.

Yes, many doctors are scared about liability and will refuse such letters. My former chief required this of all first-time applicants in the town (even if a renewal from another town) and was proud of it.

I can't remember what part of the island I was on. Might have been near diamond head can't really remember now it's been so long. But I did see people shooting there. He should talk to a few of them. They probably had to do the same thing. Then get that doc and see if you can't get the letter...

 

[Len-2A Training]

I can't remember what part of the island I was on. Might have been near diamond head can't really remember now it's been so long. But I did see people shooting there. He should talk to a few of them. They probably had to do the same thing. Then get that doc and see if you can't get the letter...

If you have an HMO, you can't just go to whoever you want for medical services unless you pay out of pocket. And many docs won't sign off after only meeting you one time (they have no history about you).

 

[Chevy 2 65]

Yes. The law that Honolulu PD is basing their policy on says the following:



Essentially, HPD is assuming that everyone on the island is subject to 1, 2, or 3 and must prove that they are not. This policy should be hard to support because it puts the burden of proof on the applicant and not the state.

They should require the same free speech

- - - Updated - - -

Not as nice as you think. My son in Alaska bought some land away from the tourist areas and built a small house to spend the winters in a couple of years ago. Since then the house has been cleaned out twice and now it's for sale. The cops there could care less. Jack.

I meant nice like in weather and views. That really sucks about what happened to your son.

 

[robjax]

If you have an HMO, you can't just go to whoever you want for medical services unless you pay out of pocket. And many docs won't sign off after only meeting you one time (they have no history about you).

Very true on both counts. But staying and doing nothing he'll never get it back. The new doc can request the medical history on this guy so maybe in about a year he can get that permit. But yes, he would have to pay out of pocket...a somewhat monumental task for most in HI.

 

[browncoat]

Kaiser is probably an HMO where you see the "doctor of the day" as your PCP, thus he asked Kaiser for the letter and they refused.

Yes, many doctors are scared about liability and will refuse such letters. My former chief required this of all first-time applicants in the town (even if a renewal from another town) and was proud of it.

This is exactly how Kaiser works. My parents live in Hawaii and have Kaiser. You get to see whichever doctor is available, so all requests like this go through Kaiser and not a doctor.

Kaiser and the HPD will probably eventually work out some protocol for how their patients can fulfill this requirement (unless it gets struck down in court). A ton of people in Hawaii are on Kaiser, so this isn't a small thing.

 

[browncoat]

Not as nice as you think. My son in Alaska bought some land away from the tourist areas and built a small house to spend the winters in a couple of years ago. Since then the house has been cleaned out twice and now it's for sale. The cops there could care less. Jack.

Would this land be on the southeast side of the Big Island? You cannot leave property unattended there. You gotta have people checking on your property, or it will get stripped. The isolated areas on the island do not have regular police patrols. Violent crime in Hawaii is very low, but property crime (theft) is relatively high to support drug habits, especially in that part of the island. Since these areas don't get a lot of traffic, the chances of police being able to catch these sorts of thieves is really low anyway, because there probably weren't any witnesses - that's why the police don't care.

Lots of people in the remote areas also squat on property, so you basically have to have someone either living on the property or regularly checking on it, or it will get trashed.

- - - Updated - - -

Very true on both counts. But staying and doing nothing he'll never get it back. The new doc can request the medical history on this guy so maybe in about a year he can get that permit. But yes, he would have to pay out of pocket...a somewhat monumental task for most in HI.

If you read the thread, he attempted to go to another doctor and HPD wouldn't accept it - they wanted a letter from his main healthcare provider.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Not as nice as you think. My son in Alaska bought some land away from the tourist areas and built a small house to spend the winters in a couple of years ago. Since then the house has been cleaned out twice and now it's for sale. The cops there could care less. Jack.

Do I read this correctly - you son built a house in Alaska to spend the WINTERS in? Am I missing something?

 

[robjax]

If you read the thread, he attempted to go to another doctor and HPD wouldn't accept it - they wanted a letter from his main healthcare provider.

I thought I read all the post. I probably did miss a couple. totally sucks...

 

[browncoat]

Do I read this correctly - you son built a house in Alaska to spend the WINTERS in? Am I missing something?

In Hawaii. It's actually pretty common for Alaska people to winter in Hawaii.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Do I read this correctly - you son built a house in Alaska to spend the WINTERS in? Am I missing something?

My bad. Son in Alaska built the house in Hi. Southeast part of the big island. Jack.

 

[spt_1955]

I'd like to point out that Hawaii doesn't require a license to possess firearms, so this was not a case of license revocation. This policy by Honolulu requiring letters is a new thing, and I don't think the other islands are doing it.

That is one of the advantages that Hawaii has over MA. The other advantage is that there is no capacity limit on rifle or shotgun magazines and there is no AWB that applies to rifles or shotguns.

The biggest disadvantage relative to Massachusetts is that there is no concealed carry.

If this is true then what "permit" is being revoked per the letter?

 

[one-eyed Jack]

If this is true then what "permit" is being revoked per the letter?

I think that you can carry with a permit, but they don't issue any. Jack.

 

[spt_1955]

Sorry but this does not pass the smell test. The person is lying about the circumstances. They can ask for a doctors statement to buy a gun but they cannot revoke his purchase permit without court action having taken place >>>>


Hawaii statute 134-7 ===>

§134-7 Ownership or possession prohibited, when; penalty. (a) No person who is a fugitive from justice or is a person prohibited from possessing firearms or ammunition under federal law shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor.

(b) No person who is under indictment for, or has waived indictment for, or has been bound over to the circuit court for, or has been convicted in this State or elsewhere of having committed a felony, or any crime of violence, or an illegal sale of any drug shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor.
(c) No person who:
(1) Is or has been under treatment or counseling for addiction to, abuse of, or dependence upon any dangerous, harmful, or detrimental drug, intoxicating compound as defined in section 712-1240, or intoxicating liquor;
(2) Has been acquitted of a crime on the grounds of mental disease, disorder, or defect pursuant to section 704-411; or
(3) Is or has been diagnosed as having a significant behavioral, emotional, or mental disorders as defined by the most current diagnostic manual of the American Psychiatric Association or for treatment for organic brain syndromes;

 

[AmmoAddict]

More hoops to jump through for the law abiding citizen. I'm sure most doctors would be very reluctant to take on that kind of liability. I hope this gets challenged in court.

Full disclosure: I didn't read any of the post that was linked to .

 

[browncoat]

Sorry but this does not pass the smell test. The person is lying about the circumstances. They can ask for a doctors statement to buy a gun but they cannot revoke his purchase permit without court action having taken place >>>>


Hawaii statute 134-7 ===>

§134-7 Ownership or possession prohibited, when; penalty. (a) No person who is a fugitive from justice or is a person prohibited from possessing firearms or ammunition under federal law shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor.

(b) No person who is under indictment for, or has waived indictment for, or has been bound over to the circuit court for, or has been convicted in this State or elsewhere of having committed a felony, or any crime of violence, or an illegal sale of any drug shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor.
(c) No person who:
(1) Is or has been under treatment or counseling for addiction to, abuse of, or dependence upon any dangerous, harmful, or detrimental drug, intoxicating compound as defined in section 712-1240, or intoxicating liquor;
(2) Has been acquitted of a crime on the grounds of mental disease, disorder, or defect pursuant to section 704-411; or
(3) Is or has been diagnosed as having a significant behavioral, emotional, or mental disorders as defined by the most current diagnostic manual of the American Psychiatric Association or for treatment for organic brain syndromes;

Part c doesn't require court action. There is case law on this.

 

[peterthefish]

Sorry but this does not pass the smell test. The person is lying about the circumstances. They can ask for a doctors statement to buy a gun but they cannot revoke his purchase permit without court action having taken place >>>>


Hawaii statute 134-7 ===>

§134-7 Ownership or possession prohibited, when; penalty. (a) No person who is a fugitive from justice or is a person prohibited from possessing firearms or ammunition under federal law shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor.

(b) No person who is under indictment for, or has waived indictment for, or has been bound over to the circuit court for, or has been convicted in this State or elsewhere of having committed a felony, or any crime of violence, or an illegal sale of any drug shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor.
(c) No person who:
(1) Is or has been under treatment or counseling for addiction to, abuse of, or dependence upon any dangerous, harmful, or detrimental drug, intoxicating compound as defined in section 712-1240, or intoxicating liquor;
(2) Has been acquitted of a crime on the grounds of mental disease, disorder, or defect pursuant to section 704-411; or
(3) Is or has been diagnosed as having a significant behavioral, emotional, or mental disorders as defined by the most current diagnostic manual of the American Psychiatric Association or for treatment for organic brain syndromes;

Right... Because a licensing official would never take a position contrary to the law.

 

[browncoat]

If this is true then what "permit" is being revoked per the letter?

Permit to purchase. Possession is unlicensed. Purchases, unless made out of state, require permits. Long gun permits are good for a year, so many gun guys in Hawaii reapply for one every year so they always have one approved.

 

[browncoat]

My bad. Son in Alaska built the house in Hi. Southeast part of the big island. Jack.

I knew it. It's one of the last affordable places to buy land in the islands.