Holy Crap???!!!

Pilgrim

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The Richland County, South Carolina Sheriff's Department (that's them above) just obtained an armored personnel carrier, complete with a belt-fed, .50-cal turreted machine gun. Sheriff Leon Lott has charmingly named the vehicle "The Peacemaker," and insists that using a caliber of ammunition that even the U.S. military is reluctant to use against human targets (it's generally reserved for use against armored vehicles) will "save lives."


pic and more at:
http://www.reason.com/blog/show/128482.html
 

Dench

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wow, thats what i would call BULLSHIT.
a .50 cal has no place at all in civilian law enforcement. the round is devastating, tears bodies apart like ragdolls (literaly) and if the gunner were to miss, its sure to go through about 4-5 more buildings before it stops. yeah thats a GREAT idea to stop a bad guy.

whats next, 20mm? 30mm? maybe they should of put a MK.19 on it so they can just mow down entire neighborhoods to flush out the bad guys, no need to do any real police work when you can blow a building up in one shot.

also, they seem to have come across a M113, although i cant tell which type it is from that photo. those things are maintenance intensive and not armored well. and the best part is, when they get to go ride around in america with their big bad APC they get to tear the roads up and ruin them in the process. yeah, its win-win! not only do you get to ride the big vehicle you get to ruin the roads everytime you make a sharp turn! yeah!

talk about ignorant people in charge over there.
one "bad guy" with a .50 sniper rifle could punch a hole right into that son of a bitch.
 

Dench

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the uses for a M2 heavy machine gun compared to the uses of a .50 cal rifle are very different.

if you could explain why they would need the heavy machine gun id be very interested in them.
 
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Well, one of the comments there notes that that parts of that area of SC are overrun by MS-13 gangs. They certainly deserve to get the M2's attention.
 

jar

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the uses for a M2 heavy machine gun compared to the uses of a .50 cal rifle are very different.

if you could explain why they would need the heavy machine gun id be very interested in them.

+1. I don't see any legitimate police use for any machine guns. I think submachine guns might have some limited uses in SWAT and that sort of thing. Automatic rifles would be a damn tough sell for me; machine guns no way.
 

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Well, one of the comments there notes that that parts of that area of SC are overrun by MS-13 gangs. They certainly deserve to get the M2's attention.

ok.... we have El Salvadorian gang members.... and a M2 machine gun.
so the 113 is supposed to drive around town and mow any ms13 down they see? you could do that with a 9mm MP5 if you wanted to be Captain Police State. the round is to powerful to be used against human targets, its going to keep going and going and going destroying everything it touches in the process.

call me crazy, but i dont want to turn america into a war torn dump becuase of some over zealous LEOs
 
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Simple.

Large animal attacks (bears and the like). Rare, but they do happen.

Terrorist attacks.

Border security.

Disabling vehicles.
 

Dench

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Simple.

Large animal attacks (bears and the like). Rare, but they do happen.

Terrorist attacks.

Border security.

Disabling vehicles.

large animals, terrorists and the boarder can be done with a 7.62 NATO round, either from a M240B (or G for the marines here) or a M60E.

disabling vehicles can be done usuing a 7.62 to .50 rifle, not machine gun.
 
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large animals, terrorists and the boarder can be done with a 7.62 NATO round, either from a M240B (or G for the marines here) or a M60E.

disabling vehicles can be done usuing a 7.62 to .50 rifle, not machine gun.

Yes, but you made a blanket statement about .50 BMGs, not the machine gun in particular.

a .50 cal has no place at all in civilian law enforcement. the round is devastating, tears bodies apart like ragdolls (literaly) and if the gunner were to miss, its sure to go through about 4-5 more buildings before it stops. yeah thats a GREAT idea to stop a bad guy.

Nothing in this statement is MG specific. All of it is caliber specific. In fact, these look dangerously like the rationalizations used by the lefties in their .50 bans.

Having it is one thing. With proper training, that MG will likely never get used in any normal situation as they would presumably revert to the proper tools for each specific job.
 

Dench

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If they do that, I won't shed a tear.

An M2 is overkill, but some people merit that overkill.

how about we use the correct tools for the job, and not the biggest, most asinine guns we can get our hands on.

you obviously have no idea what the .50 is capable of, never mind the M2.
 
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With proper training, it doesn't matter what caliber, or type of firearm they use. I'll trust a well trained SWAT team with a .50 cal over an untrained team with MP5s firing frangible bullets.

I'm not a fan of the militarization of police that is occurring in many places, but I'm more concerned with proper training of the police, than with the equipment they use. Training, and the knowledge of when that force is necessary and justified.
 
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Christ on a crutch that's obscene. It's just obscene.

Large animals, in Richland County SC, would be?

Second, as someone pointed out in the comments section, with a round capable of penetrating several of the common solid surfaces Cars, Homes, Brick and Wood Walls etc, where could it possibly be safe to fire it? How can it be justified? Hell, we have to be careful where our 9mm's and 5.56's go. What kind of backstop does that particular .50 cal require? Really, I'm not being rhetorical, I'm being literal.

f***ing disgusting. Sorry but that's it. Guess Appleseed better shift from centermass and start focusing on headshots.

I look at that and I don't see power. I see a powerful gun in the service of weak men.

Water's getting warmer men...can you feel it? Which side will you be on?
 
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Dench

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With proper training, it doesn't matter what caliber, or type of firearm they use. I'll trust a well trained SWAT team with a .50 cal over an untrained team with MP5s firing frangible bullets.

I'm not a fan of the militarization of police that is occurring in many places, but I'm more concerned with proper training of the police, than with the equipment they use. Training, and the knowledge of when that force is necessary and justified.


with "proper training" that .50 round is still going to damage any human it hits beyond recognition, and then continue to travel and damage anything in the area behind the orginal target.

lets lay it down in simple terms here;
the .50 round is not made to shoot and kill individual people. its made to devastate the target and whatever it happens hit while it continues on past the original target.

if the M2 was used in a residential area (or any other part of an american city or town), there would be a incredibly high risk of the round hitting people who are far away from the original target, not to mention massive infrastructure damage everytime the round was fired.

a 7.62, 30-06, or even a 5.56 can be used for the same applications with far less risk of ridiculous amounts of damage and the killing of people not involved in the altercation.
 
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Ummm., I'm going to have to agree with Dench here. I can see absolutely no good reason a LEO department would need a weapon system of that nature. The round is absolutely devastating on human targets and , as already pointed out, will chop down houses. Can any one tell me why I should be comfortable with this type of firepower in the hands of LOE's??? Drug raids? Gang bangers? Holy crap indeed!!
 
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With proper training, it doesn't matter what caliber, or type of firearm they use. I'll trust a well trained SWAT team with a .50 cal over an untrained team with MP5s firing frangible bullets.

I'm not a fan of the militarization of police that is occurring in many places, but I'm more concerned with proper training of the police, than with the equipment they use. Training, and the knowledge of when that force is necessary and justified.

I'm generally opposed to giving more and more power to the police and moving toward a police state. They can have all the training they want, but when we innevitably move from the soft police state we live in now to a hard, oppressive police state this is one more extremely powerful weapon that they'll have and we mere peasants won't.

I think this is a gross misuse of taxpayer money. That tank will sit in a garage for 99.999% of it's useful life. It will only be used for parades and when the police decide to drastically overexecute a warrant.
 
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a .50 cal has no place at all in civilian law enforcement. the round is devastating, tears bodies apart like ragdolls (literaly) and if the gunner were to miss, its sure to go through about 4-5 more buildings before it stops. yeah thats a GREAT idea to stop a bad guy.

Nothing in this statement is MG specific. All of it is caliber specific. In fact, these look dangerously like the rationalizations used by the lefties in their .50 bans.

And if you'd bothered to read the very next post....

the uses for a M2 heavy machine gun compared to the uses of a .50 cal rifle are very different.

if you could explain why they would need the heavy machine gun id be very interested in them.



Having it is one thing. With proper training, that MG will likely never get used in any normal situation as they would presumably revert to the proper tools for each specific job.

Dench is arguing that there is no civilian LE situation in which the M2 is the proper tool for a specific job. You have stated that there is, but I don't consider the 4 you mentioned to be compelling examples (Large animal attacks, terrorist attacks, border security, disabling vehicles). If you've got more I'd like to hear them.
 
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Christ on a crutch that's obscene. It's just obscene.

Large animals, in Richland County SC, would be?

Second, as someone pointed out in the comments section, with a round capable of penetrating several of the common solid surfaces Cars, Homes, Brick and Wood Walls etc, where could it possibly be safe to fire it? How can it be justified? Hell, we have to be careful where our 9mm's and 5.56's go. What kind of backstop does that particular .50 cal require? Really, I not be rhetorical, I'm being literal.

f***ing disgusting. Sorry but that's it. Guess Appleseed better shift from centermass and start focusing on headshots.

I look at that and I don't see power. I see a powerful gun in the service of weak men.

Water's getting warmer men...can you feel it? Which side will you be on?

+1

I'm not surprised to see the same people supporting it, too.
 
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Here is how we stop this nonsense: Enact law saying that any citizen is free to own any weapon in the hands of domestic police. There are good reasons for this on its own merits, and it acts as an excellent deterrent to this sort of ridiculous militarization of domestic law enforcement.
 

Dench

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Here is how we stop this nonsense: Enact law saying that any citizen is free to own any weapon in the hands of domestic police. There are good reasons for this on its own merits, and it acts as an excellent deterrent to this sort of ridiculous militarization of domestic law enforcement.

in all seriousness, the turret gunner on that police 113 doesnt even have a shield on front of the gun, hes a incredibly easy target to hit. if they did a raid on a well organized and decently trained group of people, the .50 gunner would be dead before he got a shot off.

also, that vehicle has a lot of vulnerabilities that can easily be exploited. the things more of a bullet magnet with a bunch of moron police trapped inside of it.

the m113 was not made to conduct raids, it was made to put 11 + 2 people in it and to get them around a dangerous area with some form of armor to protect them from small arms fire. nothing more. i have hundreds of miles of driving one of these things, i know all about them. the police arent using it for reasons that its good for. their using it under the incorrect assumption that they will be intimidating and badass. in reality, like my hunter S. thompson friend said, its nothing more then weak men with big toys.
 
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I'm not surprised to see the same people supporting it, too.

You know, I don't even notice anymore when people accuse my of being "anti-leo." It's watter of a ducks back. But the thought that I just can't shake is this.

1. There is a percentage of the folks reading this that have no issue with this.


2. There is also a percentage of the folks who read this board who swear up and down "from my cold dead hands." and the like.

3. If you fall into both categories, I have to ask.

3.1 Just what do you think they will use when it's time to strip you of your rights? Do you think the JBT will "go easy" on you since you've been an internet apologist all these years? Do you honestly believe that you'd never end up at the wrong end of this? IF so, why? Examine that belief. Really challenge yourself and tell me that you still believe this is a good thing.
 
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Dench

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Group buy? [smile]

3. Just what do you think they will use when it's time to strip you of your rights? Do you think the JBT will "go easy" on you since you've been an internet apologist all these years? Do you honestly believe that you'd never end up at the wrong end of this? IF so, why? Examine that belief. Really challenge yourself and tell me that you still believe this is a good thing.


alright boys, lets get down to brass tacks;
AT4 group buy.
$1,480 each
dont miss, make sure no ones standing behind you when you fire it, and dont fire it in doors.
 

seanc

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This is just a end run around Posse Comitatus.. Just dress up the army in blue and there is no issue right?

Isn't that pretty much what a swat team is already? A "special forces" team in a police uniform using military ordnance against civilians?

Ihren Papieren, Bitte?
 
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