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Holy Crap???!!!
- Thread starter Pilgrim
- Start date
See...now that's planning.
In all seriousness and some not, where did you get a price for that and where can we acquire one given we're not on the military hand-me-down list?
the price i have was the replacement cost for it, it varies from time to time. i snagged that one off of wiki.
im sure theres a bunch of them floating around in hands that they arent legaly in.
As an aside why is it that you have a gang problem it's always MS 13?. I bounce around 2
or 3 forums and this is the 3rd time today MS 13 has come up. Me thinks the sheriff has got his smokey hat on just a tad to tight. There are some videos on you tube of various targets being hit with a 50 BMG round. Though they are not first class quality picture wise you can tell that the 50 would be just a little overkill in an urban environment.
or 3 forums and this is the 3rd time today MS 13 has come up. Me thinks the sheriff has got his smokey hat on just a tad to tight. There are some videos on you tube of various targets being hit with a 50 BMG round. Though they are not first class quality picture wise you can tell that the 50 would be just a little overkill in an urban environment.
MS13 is one of the worst gangs (if not the worse) in america.
reasons being, the members have no code of conduct or "honor" like the mafia or other gangs do. they brutally attack, rob, kill and rape people for no reason and for no gain. they do it just to do it and to be feared.
and yes, a M2 would be 100% overkill even for evil groups of people such as MS13.
reasons being, the members have no code of conduct or "honor" like the mafia or other gangs do. they brutally attack, rob, kill and rape people for no reason and for no gain. they do it just to do it and to be feared.
and yes, a M2 would be 100% overkill even for evil groups of people such as MS13.
I would go nuts if my town spent money on something like that contraption. I'd make it my life's mission to get the people responsible fired.
not saying that they aren't vicious thugs,just asking why is it that a community has a "gang" problem it's MS 13?. Could be Crips,Bloods or just a bunch of brain dead teens acting like tough guys.
I don't have a problem with cops getting machine guns.
As long as I'm offered the opportunity to have the same thing, without
having to jump through more hoops and pay more than they do.
Now, I can see a solid argument against police having a machinegun from a
monetary standpoint- you could argue "waste of tax dollars" sure- but Im
not about to go out there and pull the "guns are bad" spiel.
I mean when it gets down to bones, what difference does it make if a
bad cop kills someone with a pistol or slices him in half with an M2? It's a
bad decision/person that lead to the person's death, not the firearm.
-Mike
double +1 and 1/2.
Exactly. Mike, I agree with you in that I don't buy the concept of the weapon as bad per se. But, I do see the weapon as grossly inappropriate for it's intended use in this situation.
icyclefar
NES Member
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2007
- Messages
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- 23
I see no problem with them having the M113. It may not be the perfect urban armored vehicle, but they probably got it cheap as surplus as the Stryker replaces them. No reason a SWAT team can't have an armored vehicle to protect them as the roll up to the building if it's deemed necessary.
The M2 is flat out excessive. I love shooting it, it's great at its intended role, but the county sheriff will never need to shoot down an enemy aircraft or lay down suppressive fire on barricaded hostiles. If the country ever gets that bad, there will probably be plenty of National Guard troops already deployed.
The M2 is flat out excessive. I love shooting it, it's great at its intended role, but the county sheriff will never need to shoot down an enemy aircraft or lay down suppressive fire on barricaded hostiles. If the country ever gets that bad, there will probably be plenty of National Guard troops already deployed.
I can agree, but that also holds true for m any other pistol and rifle cartridges- the .50 BMG is just an order of magnitude or three worse than most of them in terms of overpenetration.
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
I suppose I can agree that in LE there would literally only be a couple of uses where it's remotely practical. Even in a "your town is now a festering dump of looter terrorist insurgent" scenarios an M240, M60, SAW, etc, would probably be more than enough to do the job. It's not like you're going to have to shoot at vehicles with much in the way of armor.
-Mike
I also can't see why the police should have that kind of excessive force for surburban/urban operations in the US. We don't live in a war zone where every other person could potentially be Al Queda and needs to be mowed down with a .50 cal. If that force is ever needed within the borders we have the military for that and they have been trained to use that kind of equipment. The police need to stick with their Glocks and MP5's.
I can agree, but that also holds true for m any other pistol and rifle cartridges- the .50 BMG is just an order of magnitude or three worse than most of them in terms of overpenetration.
I suppose I can agree that in LE there would literally only be a couple of uses where it's remotely practical. Even in a "your town is now a festering dump of looter terrorist insurgent" scenarios an M240, M60, SAW, etc, would probably be more than enough to do the job. It's not like you're going to have to shoot at vehicles with much in the way of armor.
-Mike
if it gets down to the point were the government has to use light machine guns or "medium" machine guns, the local police should be removed from the situation and the military can do what it does best.
the police are to protect and serve the people, they are not super commandos meant for combat. the more the USA allows the police to get its hands on this sort of weaponry means the more the police are going to act like a military occupying force.
Sounds like a good reason to encourage police departments to buy surplus M133's - and buy .50BMG single shot and semi- auto rifles - and stock up on incendiary and AP rounds if you ask me.
The reason why police are buying these things is because the federal govt. makes funds available for the police to do so, the laws are now written so that police can use money and property confiscated in drug raids to fund themselves, and the feds make surplus equipment - like M113's, available to police departments.
What you are seeing is an outright militarization of the police forces around the country. Like Raoul Duke said - the water is beginning to get hot.
Saying that you need a .50BMG round to take out attacking animals is ridiculous - I am not a hunter, but I am pretty sure there isn't an animal on the face of this planet - outside of maybe blue whales that are going thru some sort of sped up evolutionary time warp that have grown legs and running amuck across the land - that warrant the use of a .50BMG round to take them down. Never mind using an actual machine gun - not just a single shot or semi auto rifle.
Last time I checked even gangs like MS-13 and their ilk have not taken over entire geographical areas in this county to the point where you could legitimately consider all living humans within those areas hostile and drop napalm and use .50BMG full auto fire on them without hurting innnocents.
I like the idea of saying that anything the police can have - civilians can have. I think what stuff like this really points out though - is that police in many jurisdications are trying to play soldier - and they have an underlying urge to have more and bigger firepower to put down us civilians. I think there have been more than enough stories recently about the shennanigans (the next one to say shennanigans gets pistol whipped!) - of SWAT teams across the country to seriously question the intent of police departments towards protecting civilians.
Looks like a Barrett should be on my "to buy" list.
I suppose I can agree that the military is generally better suited for that sort of thing. They already have the firepower, training, vehicles, etc- it is generally dumb for a town or county (or even a state government) to be wasting local money on that kind of thing, it is pretty redundant.
On the other hand I can't agree that merely having a gun means it'll get misused. If we believe in that, then maybe police shouldn't have guns at all. Frankly I think the "badge" or rather the power over others that it
can convey, potentially invites more "abuse" than any firearm ever would.
-Mike
Exactly right. Our first attempt should be to stop the militarization of police. We do not need or want a standing army among us. Failing that, we should make every effort to arm ourselves to the level of that standing army. To do otherwise would be irresponsible.
Just because the gun exists in the hands of the police doesn't mean it will get misused - to say so is treading dangerously close to the logic used by the gun grabbers to say why civilians should not own guns at all.
The real questions to ask are: why are you spending taxpayer money on something that is entirely gratuitous, and if you are going to argue that a .50BMG MACHINE GUN is a needed piece of equipment find me the precedents in law enforcement situations where an APC and a MACHINE GUN in .50BMG - could have been legitimately used.
One thing we should keep in perspective- let's not lose sight of what enables this so-called "police militarization".
IMO legislators have the scope of laws to be enforced so wide now that police are now involved in all kinds of things that they never had to do 30+ years ago. "The war on drugs" and all this other crap has LEOs in more places than they probably should be. Mission creep by inserting crappy laws has created a situation where now the police "serve the government" more often than they actually serve the people.
Give the police stupid, not really important, laws to enforce (thanks to dumb lawmakers) and pretty soon you end up with a shitstorm sandwich, machine guns or not, or just spatulas... bad shit happens under these
circumstances.
-Mike
IMO legislators have the scope of laws to be enforced so wide now that police are now involved in all kinds of things that they never had to do 30+ years ago. "The war on drugs" and all this other crap has LEOs in more places than they probably should be. Mission creep by inserting crappy laws has created a situation where now the police "serve the government" more often than they actually serve the people.
Give the police stupid, not really important, laws to enforce (thanks to dumb lawmakers) and pretty soon you end up with a shitstorm sandwich, machine guns or not, or just spatulas... bad shit happens under these
circumstances.
-Mike
Twigg
NES Member
I really want to think you are joking but after reading more of your posts in this thread I believe you think this has a legitimate use.
The potential for misuse boggles my mind.
![[frown]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/003.gif "Frown [frown]")
I'll refrain from making this personal and state ; People who think like this are nothing less than frogs in a pot.
This is but one of the many ways liberty is lost.
![[sad]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/004.gif "Sad [sad]")
The 4th of July parade!![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
And that's about it !
I agree. If I had the job of storming into people's houses and fighting gangs of illegals then I would want to be well armed (the system discussed here is still over the top). Poor border control and anti-drug laws have spawned so much crime that our police are asked to do way more than is fair, or even necessary, for a civil society. Legal drugs at fair market prices and decent border control would solve a lot of this, and those of us who don't use illegal drugs (or hire illegals) would be much better off.
MS-13 is the new extra-bad super gang. Based on all the Nat Geo shows I've seen on gangs including blood, crips, and MS-13 the only real difference I see is the MS-13 is international and very rapidly proliferating. They also seem more likely use blades than guns when murdering people so they appear more gruesome. They definately are something to fear as they have absolutely no respect for human life. They also make money in ways that more closely resemble mafia style organized crime than the other "street gangs" including imposing protection taxes and "rights" taxes on street vendors, taxing other drug dealers for rights to sell in certain areas (reducing their own exposure to LE), organized money laundering, etc.
I guess to answer your question, the reason you hear about them so much now is that they have been spreading across country and a relatively new to Mass.
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THIS IS EXACTLY THE POINT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO MAKE
Having an M2 machine gun won't turn good cops into bad cops. It's all about the mentality of the department that has the equipment. If they're going to misuse their equipment, does it really matter if they're using service revolvers or machine guns? If they're going to use their automatic weapons on limited targets like terrorist safe houses and the like, isn't that a legit use?
The fear of police from some people here is absolutely hilarious. Any time the police do anything, they get railed upon by someone. Are there bad cops? Yes. Are there bad raids? Definitely. Do police screw up? Absolutely.
Does that mean that all cops will abuse the equipment given to them in a manner that suppresses the rights of those they serve? NO!
The same way that the actions of a small minority of gun owners has painted the rest of us with a bad brush.
The equipment doesn't make the police evil any more than an EBR makes one of us evil. If an officer abuses his power, he'll do it with or without the .50 caliber machine gun. If you believe that an M2 will cause a department to become a teeming, festering mass of totalitarian abuse, you're perpetuating the lie that the liberal media has successfully cast on "assault weapons."
It's not always an us vs. them issue.
And don't tell me that it's about the gun. Many here would be making the same noise if it was a SAW on the pintle mount. Surplus APCs have been used by many, many departments all over the country. Again, occasionally used in a badly conceived raid, but usually used when needed.
I also love the attempts to paint me as some sort of "police sympathizer." Anyone who thinks that LE isn't becoming a tyrannical, disgusting example of government abuse of power gets nailed constantly here. Again, some departments (Worcester PD, NYPD come to mind) are like that. I don't support them. But I do support the original, limited role that police and sheriffs departments were intended to play.
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