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Holy Crap???!!!
- Thread starter Pilgrim
- Start date
Well I didn't mean brand new. They're the newest 'real' gang in MA.
ya, they're real winners.
wow i find it incredible how you still do not understand the overkill involved with a M2 machine gun.
it matters VERY MUCH if a M2 is misused over a M9, M249 or M240B.
a M2 bullet is far more devastating, and WILL NOT STOP AFTER IT HITS A HOUSE, PERSON, OR CAR. duh! dont even friggen try to compare a .50 BMG round to a 9mm, 5.56 or 7.62. its like comparing a elephant to a mouse - its STUPID.
after it hits that "terrorist" safe house, its going to hit the house behind that and then the one behind that and so on.
misuse of this weapon will cause an incredibly large amount of damage compared to use of a weapon of smaller caliber.
its like using a friggen nuclear bomb to wipe out one building ok? its called OVERKILL
He's a Navy pogue, I believe. Not that it's a less important job, it just explains his experience with Ma.
The same arguments used to advocate bans of .50 BMG for the citizenry.
I know what a .50 BMG does to human bodies. Massive, massive trauma, body parts separating, immediate shock, and usually instant or near-instant death.
It still doesn't make that PD an evil arm of the government any more than it already was.
I think it unlikely that that M2 will ever be used in any situation since the situations it would be appropriate for are unlikely to arise down in that area of the country.
It still doesn't make that PD evil.
I know what a .50 BMG does to human bodies. Massive, massive trauma, body parts separating, immediate shock, and usually instant or near-instant death.
It still doesn't make that PD an evil arm of the government any more than it already was.
I think it unlikely that that M2 will ever be used in any situation since the situations it would be appropriate for are unlikely to arise down in that area of the country.
It still doesn't make that PD evil.
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There is a HUGE difference between citizenry and those we hire to police us. That's the point.
![[popcorn]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/043.gif "Popcorn [popcorn]")
Oh why the hell not mention it is better to use a flash bang.. the most your going to do is burn out a building.
Pepper Pellets.
![[thinking]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/010.gif "Thinking [thinking]")
no, not really.
.50 bmg can be used as a target and sporting round, were the rifle will be fired in a controlled environment and not mow through a neighborhood.
your still missing the point.
.50 rifle, and 50. heavy machine gun are 2 very different beasts.
Pepper Pellets.
True.. adding season to this BBQ?
Yet, instead of indicating that in post #4, you targeted the cartridge, specifically. Changing your story?
The cartridge has uses in law enforcement.
The .50 BMG machine gun is a superfluous expenditure of funds that, with no borders, no threat of a rampage of bears or zombies, and a low probability of terrorist attack in that country, is likely only ever going to be even loaded in an attack on an isolated gang safehouse outside of moderately populated areas.
The APC has legitimate law enforcement uses, albeit limited to extreme high-risk warrants and the like. It gets sometimes like 2 miles to the gallon. I don't expect they'll ever use it as a patrol vehicle.
Would you like to disaree with those statements?
My main point in taking an antagonist position in this thread is to drive home the point that no firearm, or other piece of equipment, makes a police department "bad" anymore than a NFA item makes one of us "bad." That's a distinction that I don't see many people getting.
Oh, and yes, I still believe that MS-13 members deserve .50 BMG justice. Not necessarily from an M2, but I have no problem with police using heavy cartridges against them.
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My point, even when quoted and lumped in with a response to Dench, remains unchanged. An organization established by citizens to police citizens has no need for an automatic .50 caliber machine gun. It goes against the very principles of the organization. Their job is to deliver warrants and bring criminals to the judicial system, not gun them down with superior firepower.
Fine. I will agree with that. However, I stand by my assertion that having an M2 does not turn this department into an abusive arm of the government any more than it already (potentially) was.
Yup.. missed by 100+ years on this one.
im not changing my story at all. infact if it were up to me .50 BMG would be illegal for civilian LE to use due to the danger of the round to the surrounding area.
The m113 is not a good vehicle to serve warrents. in fact, no tracked vehicle is good for LE use. all they do is damage roads. if they wanted to be super cops, they could go find a wheeled APC, but no, they want their tank looking vehicle to subscirbe to the BS shock and awe theory.
its safe to say you have no know-how m113 (not that thats a bad thing, but your trying to tell me about the vehicle when i used to be the operator of it). its not for the civilian police.
i have no idea why your trying to compare the use of .50 BMG for civilians to .50 to LE. a civilian like ive already said would be firing it in a controled and safe enviornment, a LEO would be firing it in the public, putting everyone in front of the weapon in extreme danger of being killed by accident.
everytime a police station gets a new toy like a APC, they make a point to use it as much as possible.
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Our city will not approve even the M4, "too evil looking" they went with the mini 30.. unreal!
In fact I was at the range the other day and a local officer was there and he pointed down to the Eotech and said they are trying to get them now, but the city will not approve.. I had him fire a few rounds and he was happy that I pointed out to keep both eyes open. He enjoyed it, and so did his son that was with him. I said I can meet them at the local range they use to fire more if he wants to set it up.
In fact I was at the range the other day and a local officer was there and he pointed down to the Eotech and said they are trying to get them now, but the city will not approve.. I had him fire a few rounds and he was happy that I pointed out to keep both eyes open. He enjoyed it, and so did his son that was with him. I said I can meet them at the local range they use to fire more if he wants to set it up.
The M113 was probably the most cost-effective vehicle they could get (aka, the cheapest surplus vehicle they could find). I can't imagine the military has many of the old wheeled APCs left, since they haven't been used in quite a while. If they limit the use and use those street treads on them, then road damage is limited. I don't think the M113 was a great choice either, since it's an absolute fuel hog and is underpowered, but it's armor is more than good enough to stop pistol and rifle fire. But you take what is available when you have the funds. I assume the APC will be transported on a trailer close to its use sites, limiting the street damage.
Sure, the LAV-25 (without the cannon) would have been a better choice. But they're not available as surplus since it's a current production model that's in heavy use. The 113s are cheap, and available. I've seen more than a few on the market. If one of us can get an M-113 in working order for $20K, I'm sure that the PD got a really sweet deal (aka: free) for that one.
I do believe that the .50 BMG, used in a rifle, can be safely employed by properly trained police in specialized situations.
And yes, I will admit that I think the M2 has no place on a LE vehicle in anything but the most extreme situation (think invasion, zombies). My point in making this whole argument is that the gun does not make the user evil or abusive.
Sure, the LAV-25 (without the cannon) would have been a better choice. But they're not available as surplus since it's a current production model that's in heavy use. The 113s are cheap, and available. I've seen more than a few on the market. If one of us can get an M-113 in working order for $20K, I'm sure that the PD got a really sweet deal (aka: free) for that one.
I do believe that the .50 BMG, used in a rifle, can be safely employed by properly trained police in specialized situations.
And yes, I will admit that I think the M2 has no place on a LE vehicle in anything but the most extreme situation (think invasion, zombies). My point in making this whole argument is that the gun does not make the user evil or abusive.
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It's wishful thinking to put an Eotech on a Mini 14.
It would likely be impossible for me to agree with Martlet and Dench more. This is a scary purchase and serves little but to instill a sense of power in the department and fear in the citizens. I for one would not be sleeping better at night knowing a sheriffs department was in possession of such firepower....
The planets must be lining up or something because I'm sitting here agreeing with Dench for once.![[hmmm]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/009.gif "Hmm [hmmm]")
On a related note... maybe they're expecting tropical storm Hanna to become the worst hurricane ever known to man and turn SC into Mad Max wasteland.![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
On a related note... maybe they're expecting tropical storm Hanna to become the worst hurricane ever known to man and turn SC into Mad Max wasteland.
the "newer" M113A3s that came out in the late 80's addressed most of the power issues. i could get mine up to about 45mph on flatroad, which is pretty fast for a tracked vehicle. if your interested in seeing it, i have a video of me dragging a large front end loader out of a mud pit, it demonstrates the improved power over the vietnam era m113's.
the tracks already have rubber pads on them. when you drive straight your fine, when you make slow wide turns your fine, but when you make sharp turns (like trying to turn around) youll gouge up the pavement.
the gas use isnt that bad, the vehicle has a 300 mile range on it for instance. the M113a3's have 2 massive fuel tanks located on the back of the M113a3 externally.
i think a m240b would of been a much better choice over the m2, for a lot of reasons.
(heres that video showing some of its towing power, denchy-poo being the driver http://s112.photobucket.com/albums/n167/discodench/The Army years/?action=view¤t=DSCN1051.flv )
On a related note... maybe they're expecting tropical storm Hanna to become the worst hurricane ever known to man and turn SC into Mad Max wasteland.
I love those movies. The Road Warrior: Feel-good movie of the year.
![[grin]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/041.gif "Grin [grin]")
i liked the volvo. i used it to put a culvert in, its controls are excellent. i havent ever driven a cat thou
heres a cool pic i took of both of them together when i was usuing them.
the 113 was acting as a giant traffic cone heh
heres a cool pic i took of both of them together when i was usuing them.
the 113 was acting as a giant traffic cone heh
I'm with Dench on this. I wouldn't be surprised if this was a case of some redneck sheriff trying to "get as much gun as he could".
It would be a different story if it was Detroit....
It would be a different story if it was Detroit....
I some what miss running heavy equipment, then again when your father is an operating engineer for over 35 years.. you get to learn and use a lot of equipment. Just keep me away from blasting rigs.. I hated running them, I only enjoyed working on a blasting crew the days we shook the earth ![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
Dench, just so we're clear, I respect your knowledge and experience as much as anyone else and really have no desire to get in a pissing contest with anyone here. We're all on the same side. You know way more about the M113 than I'll ever know, and of course have combat experience with the M2 that I do not.
My main point in jumping into this thread is that I firmly do not believe that any one piece of equipment will turn a PD or Sheriff's dept. from the good public service model into an entity that abuses its power and terrorizes the citizenry. Gemme would still be an asshat if all WPD had were service revolvers.
Perhaps this acquisition may reflect on the inclinations of this particular department or sheriff, but without any knowledge of abuses they may have committed in the past, I'm not going to go and paint them that way.
My question is, where do you draw the line on LE equipment? I think most patrol officers should be qualified with patrol carbines in addition to their sidearms. Should they be select-fire or semi-auto? I don't know, although I think S/A is probably all that would ever be needed anyway.
To be honest, I don't think LE has any use for a belt-fed GPMG like the M240 either. Gotta remember that even the chance of one stray bullet hitting a bystander is something that makes the average lawmaker piss themselves (and I'm not that happy about that sort of incident either), so I have to imagine that the local gov't will watch the use of this thing very closely. Again, my belief is that although the practical uses for such a firearm are limited, in the hands of a responsible police department I don't think they'll ever be misused (read: they'll never come out of the armory except for photo-ops).
Again on the APC, I've seen some of the APCs/armored cars used by other departments, and I have to think that there are few if any of those left in the DOD's inventory for sale to LE agencies, hence the M113. I could be wrong, and he might be going for the shock effect, like you said, but I'm not going to accuse them of that until I know for sure.
Even though an entire thread was started up to pretty much mock me, I think I've gotten my point across.
Anyways, my views are as follows.
Guns aren't evil.
Guns don't make people evil.
Big guns don't make police evil.
Police have almost zero use for big guns.
M113s are cheap.
M113s are readily available.
I want an M2 (semi-auto)
Now, let's all have a drink, and then set up a group buy for these
AND these
My main point in jumping into this thread is that I firmly do not believe that any one piece of equipment will turn a PD or Sheriff's dept. from the good public service model into an entity that abuses its power and terrorizes the citizenry. Gemme would still be an asshat if all WPD had were service revolvers.
Perhaps this acquisition may reflect on the inclinations of this particular department or sheriff, but without any knowledge of abuses they may have committed in the past, I'm not going to go and paint them that way.
My question is, where do you draw the line on LE equipment? I think most patrol officers should be qualified with patrol carbines in addition to their sidearms. Should they be select-fire or semi-auto? I don't know, although I think S/A is probably all that would ever be needed anyway.
To be honest, I don't think LE has any use for a belt-fed GPMG like the M240 either. Gotta remember that even the chance of one stray bullet hitting a bystander is something that makes the average lawmaker piss themselves (and I'm not that happy about that sort of incident either), so I have to imagine that the local gov't will watch the use of this thing very closely. Again, my belief is that although the practical uses for such a firearm are limited, in the hands of a responsible police department I don't think they'll ever be misused (read: they'll never come out of the armory except for photo-ops).
Again on the APC, I've seen some of the APCs/armored cars used by other departments, and I have to think that there are few if any of those left in the DOD's inventory for sale to LE agencies, hence the M113. I could be wrong, and he might be going for the shock effect, like you said, but I'm not going to accuse them of that until I know for sure.
Even though an entire thread was started up to pretty much mock me, I think I've gotten my point across.
Anyways, my views are as follows.
Guns aren't evil.
Guns don't make people evil.
Big guns don't make police evil.
Police have almost zero use for big guns.
M113s are cheap.
M113s are readily available.
I want an M2 (semi-auto)
Now, let's all have a drink, and then set up a group buy for these
AND these
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Apologies.
One of my co-workers, who's in the Guard, went over to Iraq as an MP. He used the .50 as they often had him riding a Humvee turret and has on more than one occasion described the effects to me. He thinks the same thing, but that's because he's spent most of his time in artillery (and is going to Afghanistan in that capacity down the road)
So, what does everyone think? M113 and M2 buy? I'm sure that between us we could afford a few 113s.
One of my co-workers, who's in the Guard, went over to Iraq as an MP. He used the .50 as they often had him riding a Humvee turret and has on more than one occasion described the effects to me. He thinks the same thing, but that's because he's spent most of his time in artillery (and is going to Afghanistan in that capacity down the road)
So, what does everyone think? M113 and M2 buy? I'm sure that between us we could afford a few 113s.
