Home FFL In Massachusetts

[Producer]

I apologize in advance. I have searched this, but I have few solid answers. I would like to see a good answer to this. Maybe a sticky here.

I have the C&R but want a Dealer FFL. I could get a storefront, but chances are I would rarely be there, and don't want to store my firearms in some low rent property. I want to keep the investment low. So for having a Dealer FFL;

Is it a federal law that you must have a storefront?
Is it a State law that you must have a storefront?
Is there town regulations?
Can a city/town police chief sponsor you for a home FFL?

I see a ton of websites that promote home FFL's and see it weekly in Shotgun News. I am not paying $15 to hear I can't do it. I have also made previous posts on Manufacturer which tell me I need a storefront. Any straight answers here?

 

[EasyD]

I apologize in advance. I have searched this, but I have few solid answers. I would like to see a good answer to this. Maybe a sticky here.

I have the C&R but want a Dealer FFL. I could get a storefront, but chances are I would rarely be there, and don't want to store my firearms in some low rent property. I want to keep the investment low. So for having a Dealer FFL;

Is it a federal law that you must have a storefront?
Is it a State law that you must have a storefront?
Is there town regulations?
Can a city/town police chief sponsor you for a home FFL?

I see a ton of websites that promote home FFL's and see it weekly in Shotgun News. I am not paying $15 to hear I can't do it. I have also made previous posts on Manufacturer which tell me I need a storefront. Any straight answers here?

As someone who as applied for a FFL from there home address, it ain't gonna happen in MA without a storefront. Its a matter of State law.

The Feds could care less where an FFL is, assuming it meets local law. This includes zoning laws, etc.

When I applied, the examiner checked with my local PD before visiting me. My local PD would not process an application for a state dealer or state gunsmith license, because neither can be licensed at a residence.

I ended up withdrawing my application.

While it is possible to come up with the unique set of circumstances to obtain an FFL at a residence in MA, it's not easy and probably not a good idea anyways. If you are applying for an FFL, you must be actively involved in the business that requires the FFL. So getting a FFL without a State Sales license would not allow you to sell guns, thus you can't make any money, thus your not in the trade and you don't need an FFL. Same deal with gunsmithing. No State license at a residence, no FFL.

If you intend to apply for a manufactures license, the ATF requires more documentation including zoning (is your house zoned for light manufacturing?), and will actually want to see machines (Bridgeport, lathe, etc). If you have no way to manufacture things, you can't really be in the business of making guns. Also, the ATF is getting ticked off at the amount of post-86 machine guns out there in the hands of random FFLs, and is starting to become more stingy with allowing people with no intention of making guns an easy way to get fun guns to blast with their friends.

Even if you go to the effort, jump through the hoops, and get the FFL, if your activity is low enough, there is a good chance your license won't be renewed. Remember, you atleast need to try to make money at it! If all your doing is buying guns for your own consumption or a buddy or two, it will get someone at the ATF upset... It can also lead to tax evasion problems regarding Federal Excise Tax (10% on long guns, 11% on handguns) and NFA taxes, if you end up with NFA weapons you have no intention of selling.

Last reason not to get an FFL out of your house is the inspection problem. By law, the ATF can inspect your inventory and bound book any time during your regular business hours. (You where aware you needed to actually have regular hours, right?) This has major 4th Amendment implications. Your effectively giving up some of your constitutional protections. Also, if you somehow where to be able to do it, and had a State license with your residence as the address, you are subject to inspection once a year by the local licensing authority (your local PD). Same deal... You want a local cop going through your stuff cause you wanted to save a few hundred bucks on a Glock?

--EasyD

 

[vellnueve]

If every NES member tosses in ten bucks, we can get our own FFL and zoned property

 

[Producer]

If every NES member tosses in ten bucks, we can get our own FFL and zoned property

+1

 

[Fooped]

As someone who as applied for a FFL from there home address, it ain't gonna happen in MA without a storefront. Its a matter of State law.

The Feds could care less where an FFL is, assuming it meets local law. This includes zoning laws, etc.

When I applied, the examiner checked with my local PD before visiting me. My local PD would not process an application for a state dealer or state gunsmith license, because neither can be licensed at a residence.

I ended up withdrawing my application.

While it is possible to come up with the unique set of circumstances to obtain an FFL at a residence in MA, it's not easy and probably not a good idea anyways. If you are applying for an FFL, you must be actively involved in the business that requires the FFL. So getting a FFL without a State Sales license would not allow you to sell guns, thus you can't make any money, thus your not in the trade and you don't need an FFL. Same deal with gunsmithing. No State license at a residence, no FFL.

If you intend to apply for a manufactures license, the ATF requires more documentation including zoning (is your house zoned for light manufacturing?), and will actually want to see machines (Bridgeport, lathe, etc). If you have no way to manufacture things, you can't really be in the business of making guns. Also, the ATF is getting ticked off at the amount of post-86 machine guns out there in the hands of random FFLs, and is starting to become more stingy with allowing people with no intention of making guns an easy way to get fun guns to blast with their friends.

Even if you go to the effort, jump through the hoops, and get the FFL, if your activity is low enough, there is a good chance your license won't be renewed. Remember, you atleast need to try to make money at it! If all your doing is buying guns for your own consumption or a buddy or two, it will get someone at the ATF upset... It can also lead to tax evasion problems regarding Federal Excise Tax (10% on long guns, 11% on handguns) and NFA taxes, if you end up with NFA weapons you have no intention of selling.

Last reason not to get an FFL out of your house is the inspection problem. By law, the ATF can inspect your inventory and bound book any time during your regular business hours. (You where aware you needed to actually have regular hours, right?) This has major 4th Amendment implications. Your effectively giving up some of your constitutional protections. Also, if you somehow where to be able to do it, and had a State license with your residence as the address, you are subject to inspection once a year by the local licensing authority (your local PD). Same deal... You want a local cop going through your stuff cause you wanted to save a few hundred bucks on a Glock?

--EasyD

Well thought and detailed post. Thanks for your knowledge.

 

[Wildweasel]

The big thing is it needs to be a separate address than your residence. Uncle freds gunshop that used to exist in southampton was affected by this, the town helped out some by setting the shop and house (the shop was the front part of the house with established hours etc) up with separate addresses like a duplex. they where able to stay in operation till health issues caused them to close a few years ago.

I have heard of using an outbuilding with a separate street address is ok, but of course the zoning and town would have to match up to the intended use.

 

[drgrant]

I agree with what EasyD says.

Basically BATFE will go to great measures to try to DENY anyone
who tries to apply for one. If all your ducks are not perfectly in
a row- Zoning, profit motive (eg, business and NOT hobby, saying
the h-word in front of a BATFE person is bad juju, dropping a loud
fart at church pales in comparison) local
regs/licenses/permits, you -will- be denied.

And MA is worse than almost anywhere else, because of the
two tiers of licensing involved- so the amount of back and forth
tattling between the state and feds with your license is easily
double what it is compared to the free states.

I'm not saying its impossible, it's just that the challenges are
considerable. As others have mentioned, the guys on the dual
use property have it easiest. One of the FFLs close to me has
a small shack set up in his front yard, and that is his FFL
location...

-Mike

 

[Producer]

Yes EasyD, Thank you.

I sent him a PM thank you, but never thanked you in public.

 

[mac1911]

A friend of mine has the zoneing and busness front. opperates a business out of his home. Now he wanted to suppliment his income with transfers and fire arms sales on a small scale say 10 to 20 guns a month along with stocking some everyday items. From what he says, the state denied him for lack of sufficiant reliabilty on income from operating a FFL??? WTF so ok, you aint makeing enough so no go.

When I thought about it a few years back the Local officer in charge of permits said he has no problem with it, "its the state and their business license crap you gotta get through"

 

[Rob Boudrie]

It can also lead to tax evasion problems regarding Federal Excise Tax (10% on long guns, 11% on handguns)

This is not an issue for an FFL that is not a manufacturer, as the excise tax is collected from, and paid by, the manufacturer.

There is a specific MA law banning the holding of a MA gun dealer's license with a residential address as the storefront.

 

[KMaurer]

A good friend of mine (who used to work for Treasury) held an FFL for years. He had his garage converted and used strictly for business, including a separate address. He'd been given a zoning waiver from his town. He basically sold to and did transfers for LEOs and people he knew well. The last time he went to renew, the AG told ATF that he was operating in violation of zoning laws. (I know. Since when does the AG's Office enforce zoning laws?) His town came back that he was and always had been in complete compliance with their zoning. None of it mattered. They ended up putting him through so much shit that he finally said the hell with it. And this is somebody who used to work for Treasury and still had a lot of friends both there and at FBI.

Ken

 

[WILDCATT]

???????

one of my friends who has sold out of his house,and was granted the zoning,just lost his fire arms license but can still sell ammo.
I still say where are the gun owners they must be voting for the dem.as there are /were 1,800,000 licensed gun ownerers in mass,260,000 now where did they go.they all did not go like me.but I had the opertunity to get 90 acres for $70,000.

 

[drgrant]

Whats preventing you from saying you want to sell guns on the internet?

Cant you apply for a license to run a business from your home and then get the FFL for purposes of selling online?

I cant see anyone being able to deny you from wanting to buy guns from dealers and sell them via a website or gunbroker.

More than likely it's possible to get a Type 01 this way... but still, bear in mind that it has all the legal trappings of a regular store front FFL.

-Zoning laws will still apply. Most homes will fail this test. Residential zoning = forget it.

-If in MA, you will still need an MA dealer license. (Which must be approved by the local PD. )

The above two are huge. In MA the feds will try to use zoning or local regulations to squeeze you out of a license,.

-Even if you manage to get a license you will still have to show profit motive. If you get inspected by BATFE and your BB has no commercial activity on it (read, people paying you to do transfers, selling/buying guns with the intent of making a profit, etc. ) they will take your license away, as typically Type-01s are issued for commercial purposes only.

Many moons ago the feds used to hand out Type 01 FFLs like candy to virtually anyone who signed up for one. After the clinton administration
came through, (and perhaps even ealier than that) things started to change and they started to do their best to eliminate as many licensees as s
possible. A lot of the "Kitchen Table" type guys got gutted back then and had licenses stripped away because they could not show profit
motive.

-Mike

 

[Palladin]

Many moons ago the feds used to hand out Type 01 FFLs like candy to virtually anyone who signed up for one. After the clinton administration
came through, (and perhaps even ealier than that) things started to change and they started to do their best to eliminate as many licensees as s
possible. A lot of the "Kitchen Table" type guys got gutted back then and had licenses stripped away because they could not show profit
motive.

-Mike

I had an FFL 01 back then..'91-94 I think.
Didn't even bother to renew with all the bullshit.

The Violence Policy Committee is reporting what they term a "little noticed
victory" for gun prohibitionists in a 78% drop in the number gun dealers
over the past decade. According to a VPC press release, which has been
picked up by several mainstream news outlets (ttp://tinyurl.com/jlg2a),
the number of Type 1 Federal Firearms License holders dropped from 245,628
in 1994 to 54,902 in 2005.

The drop in the number of licensees is a direct result of Clinton-era
policies that included raising the fee for a Type 1 license from $30 to
$200 coupled with concentrated "enforcement" (read "auditing") of
provisions of the '60 Gun Control Act.

 

[jdubois]

If you do have a dealers license, are you allowed to buy non-ma complaint gun to sell to states where they are complaint?

Yes.

If so, are you allowed to "test fire" them at the range to know the product your selling?

Yes.

 

[jdubois]

Could you order a non-compliant "Assault Weapon" like a post ban Colt LE6920 and sell it to people in texas?

If so, could you "Test fire it" as well?

Yes. You don't even have to be sneaky about "out of state sales" and "test firing" and what not. With a MA dealer's license, you can possess post-ban "Assault Weapons," period. Unless you really intend to be a real honest to goodness open to the public dealer, however, you have no chance of getting a license.

 

[Acme.Armament]

Is it a federal law that you must have a storefront?
Is it a State law that you must have a storefront?
Is there town regulations?
Can a city/town police chief sponsor you for a home FFL?

I see a ton of websites that promote home FFL's and see it weekly in Shotgun News. I am not paying $15 to hear I can't do it. I have also made previous posts on Manufacturer which tell me I need a storefront. Any straight answers here?

Damn, there is a lot to read on NES. I just saw & read this thread and most of the replies to the OP are BS! This thread was started 7 months after I started doing business above my garage.

Is it a federal law that you must have a storefront?

No. They require you to have a "seperate entrance" to your store. At Acme you come in the side door to the garage and up the stairs in the back to the shop.

Is it a State law that you must have a storefront?

No. MA wants you to be in compliance with local zoning bylaws (so check with them first) and the BATFE will check with your CLEO and with your town/city hall to make sure you are good with everything.

Is there town regulations?

Maybe. Check with your CLEO, building dept., zoning office, town clerk, etc. I did and my homwork paid off.

Can a city/town police chief sponsor you for a home FFL?

Doubtful. I can't think of a reason as to why a CLEO would want to stick their neck out for somebody wanting a FFL license.

 

[Rapid Fire]

I did apply for an FFL to open a home based business, although the town and local police supported it the State would not, your FFL license now has to be at a different address than your home.

Having a storefront gun shop in small communities typically are not profitable.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

It's possible under limited circumstances. You need to be applying for a purpose that:

- Does not violate local zoning

- Does not require a MA dealer's or gunsmith license

Until recently, this was pretty much impossible. Then the BATFE issued a ruling that consultants, gunwriters, photographers, etc. could no longer receive guns via interstate shipment without either holding, or going through, an FFL unless there were W2 employees of the manufacturer shipping the guns. It was formerly legal, and common practice, to ship guns to such consultants without use of an FFL. The BATFE ruling states that W2 employee status is required because of the greater degree of control and supervision an employer exercises over a W2 employee than a 1099 or volunteer consultant. (yes, the BATFE ruling mentions both paid and volunteer consultants). The ruling goes on to state that such persons may be granted an FFL for such purposes.

So, that leaves some obstacles:

1. Local zoning. I check my town and a home based business is limited to 25% of the floor space, and I must be able to document it will not create a traffic or parking problem.

2. Limited to selling 4 guns per calendar year without a state dealer's license (MGL).

3. Proving you are actually a consultant to the industry. I doubt the BATFE would accept a statement that you "plan to consult" or "will be starting a gun blog" as proof. My guess (and it's only a guess) is that you would probably need to demonstrate that there are actually firms that will be using your services.

4. BATFE record keeping requirements, including the requirement that you specifically label all of your "non-inventory" personal guns kept at the licensed premise.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

There are other ways to do this. Get the 07 FFL (manufacturer). Rent a closet in an industrial zone where you keep you paperwork. You can keep your inventory anywhere including at your home. I use my office in a mill building in an industrial zone, so the zoning issue goes away (manufacturing fits the zoning). You should be able to get the state dealer's license ok because the "residence" issue goes away along with the store front issue since retail is not allowed in most industrial zones. With the 07 FFL you can do what you could do with the 01 and more. Don't know why anyone gets the 01. Jack.

 

[Tommy Gun]

Jack, I have some questions. I pm'd you.

Thanks

Tom

 

[denrobare]

I own and operate Western Mass Firearms out of my home in MA. I have my FFL. Massachusetts requires a dealer to be in a detached or seperate building from a primary place of residence and said building needs to be zoned for business, not residential. The Feds could care less about location, zoning laws, etc. It is a MA law. If I had a detached garage, and got my town to give me a special zoning permit, I could then apply for a state dealer's license.

I conduct business strictly online. Orders are placed through my site, and then an state licensed dealer is selected to ship too for transfer. All my transactions are technically "FFL to FFL" since I do not transfer any firearms to actual customers, non-FFL licensees.

This takes some, if not all, of the liability off my hands. The transferring dealer would be held accountable for transferring an unapproved or illegal firearm to a resident of MA. That being said, I still do my homework and make sure to not sell illegal or non-compliant firearms to MA residents. Its actually my goal to sell MA compliant AKs and ARs to allow residents of MA to enjoy these rifles.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

I own and operate Western Mass Firearms out of my home in MA. I have my FFL. Massachusetts requires a dealer to be in a detached or seperate building from a primary place of residence and said building needs to be zoned for business, not residential. The Feds could care less about location, zoning laws, etc. It is a MA law. If I had a detached garage, and got my town to give me a special zoning permit, I could then apply for a state dealer's license.

I conduct business strictly online. Orders are placed through my site, and then an state licensed dealer is selected to ship too for transfer. All my transactions are technically "FFL to FFL" since I do not transfer any firearms to actual customers, non-FFL licensees.

This takes some, if not all, of the liability off my hands. The transferring dealer would be held accountable for transferring an unapproved or illegal firearm to a resident of MA. That being said, I still do my homework and make sure to not sell illegal or non-compliant firearms to MA residents. Its actually my goal to sell MA compliant AKs and ARs to allow residents of MA to enjoy these rifles.

Your situation is unique since ATF requires FFLs in Mass to have the state license. It's right there on the form 7. Jack.

 

[Tommy Gun]

That separate building should also have a different address than your home if it is a detached garage. It was said in the seminar that they would be checking everyone when they come up for renewal and the state will shut them down if they consider it a dwelling.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

That separate building should also have a different address than your home if it is a detached garage. It was said in the seminar that they would be checking everyone when they come up for renewal and the state will shut them down if they consider it a dwelling.

I don't think that level of ambition exists. Anyway, who said that? ATF or state? Jack.

 

[denrobare]

The state said that about needing to have a seperate place of business. The ATF was very aware of my not having a state license and issued my FFL without any hiccups. This was in late 2010.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

The state said that about needing to have a seperate place of business. The ATF was very aware of my not having a state license and issued my FFL without any hiccups. This was in late 2010.

I suppose. Still, the application (form 7) states that you must aquire the state license within 30 days after you have the FFL. This is not realistic in this state. My latest state license renewal took two months. I applied early enough but it still ran out. However I kept a copy of the app. that the PD did on MIRCS and didn't get kicked out of the system. What a state. Son Lance in NH moves from one town to another and simply tells the selectmen that he is moving his FFL and asks for a letter OKing a home occupation which he gets and this keeps the ATF happy. Jack.

 

[dcmdon]

The state said that about needing to have a seperate place of business. The ATF was very aware of my not having a state license and issued my FFL without any hiccups. This was in late 2010.

This is consistent with my experience in CT.
The ATF was VERY thorough in making sure that I was in compliance with all Zoning regs, but simply told me to make sure that I got my CT license to sell before I did any retail sales. The CT license is only for retail sales of handguns. Its not necessary for interstate transfers or even face to face sales of long guns or receivers.

The agent who I met with before being issued my 07 told me that a huge number of applicants do little to no face to face sales. That's why they've pretty much dropped their Business Hours requirements. You still have to list business hours, but its solely for the ATF's use for them to do a surprise compliance inspection.

My business hours listed on my application are one day a week from 7 to 9 pm. During those hours, either I or a representative of mine needs to be able to show any inspectors my paperwork. One interesting thing is that you are not required by law to show them your physical inventory during a routine compliance inspection.

Don

 

[MisterHappy]

Can you say, "Hours by appointment only"?

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Can you say, "Hours by appointment only"?

No. At least it didn't work for me. They sent a letter saying that they needed hours to make audits. You don't have to have many hours. Jack.