How to Prepare For A Red Flag Confiscation Order At Your House

[whatluck]

I got it! Live on a house boat! A leaky one! They can't raid your domicile if it's on the bottom of the ocean!

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The article misses some things. In some jurisdictions, a red flag order may not grant the police a de-facto search warrant, but just require you surrender your guns. Do not physically resist, but make it clear to the police you will (a) obey their orders and not resist if they enter without your consent; (b) Make it clear you do not consent and (c) Offer to produce the unloaded and cased gun at your doorstep. Sure, this probably won't change any behavior - but the police will be unable to moot any claims about an invalid search because you consented.

 

[Drix]

Do they also take non-firearm items? Muzzleloaders, pellet rifles, other accessories?

So I have a little bit of outrageous experience here, and yes, they'll take everything.

Curious as to what happens legally if you store some out of state. In MA they have a list. If they start asking "where's A,B and C?", what happens if you just shrug your shoulders?

From what I understand their record keeping is a disaster with guns going on your account but not going off if you sell it, so a single firearm may be listed on a dozen peoples sheet.

I know if they give a 129d they'll demand an explanation of where x and y is, but my experience seeing someone go through the process is that nobody actually checks up on the story. Local police just dont have that kind of juristiction.

As for record keeping, I'm no expert but I've seen records. Mircs is supposed to keep the transactions for firearms but it's strange that when you query the database you get a list of your name, ltc, and serial number which is an awful lot like a registry. What might save that fact is that a serial number might come back with 10 owners and therefore not be a "registry". I was very surprised that a mircs data pull lists every gun you have ever had registered to you and not a range of date ownership, serial, and disposition.

This brings up a good question what if you have properties in two different states and some firearms that you bought in Massachusetts are in another state?

Jurisdiction. I've seen locals get pissed and threaten people but they cant pull them, I've heard of MSP making demands and told to pound sand for a out of state hunting rifle, I've never seen a group go out of their way to get a gun. I think basically the answer to this is "more charges and threats" from the police if you dont comply- which to be fair, in MA you're probibly f***ed anyway so theres no good reason to do so, they police are probibly lying to you anyway.

The article misses some things. In some jurisdictions, a red flag order may not grant the police a de-facto search warrant, but just require you surrender your guns. Do not physically resist, but make it clear to the police you will (a) obey their orders and not resist if they enter without your consent; (b) Make it clear you do not consent and (c) Offer to produce the unloaded and cased gun at your doorstep. Sure, this probably won't change any behavior - but the police will be unable to moot any claims about an invalid search because you consented.

I think one of the big ERPO problems is that police can be ERPO petitioners which gives incentive to abuse the system over a standard and more reasonable 129d.

 

[namedpipes]

What are the primary types of RO's in Mass and surrounding states?

And more importantly, to what extent for each can you be lawfully compelled to surrender firearms, even those stored in another location / state?

To what extent can you require police to turn them over to an FFL of your choosing?

There's 209, which is domestic, I think. ERPO and what is 129? Any others?

(I've never been in all that much trouble, surprisingly, so this is all a big mystery to me)

 

[GM-GUY]

I’ve been saying this for years now, if you don’t have some ‘off the books stuff’ stashed in another location you are just being silly.

Remember, this started in New Orleans - they raided (without warrant) and took guns from lawful citizens - the gangs they left alone. Sure it might get sorted out in the court - feel like waiting years? While God knows what happens in the world?

 

[drgrant]

How come ‘start shooting’ isnt an option??

Because you will die, the media can easily cast you only as a "nutbag", and because of the relatively short dialogue, nobody will care. I can think of more productive, less suicidal ways of dealing with this stuff, both with and without violence. Regardless of how you want to deal with it, just know that bringing the fight on your own terms, violent or not, is usually going to pay far better dividends.

See also: stacking cords of wood instead of just settling for a couple logs.....

-Mike

 

[308rifleman]

Decoy safe with old beater guns.

My thoughts exactly! Keep only what you absolutely need at home. Inexpensive pump shotgun for home defense or trap/skeet/hunting, inexpensive .22 rifle for target shooting/plinking if you have FID only. If you have LTC, a good used .38 like a basic S&W Model 10 would work well. Expensive collector's items like HK91s and the Lugers or Walther P38s that great grandpappy brought back from WWII should be stored safely out of state at locations only you know about. If on the receiving end of an ERPO, you will not be out that much money. If a spouse pulled the ERPO, include the value of your lost guns as part of the divorce settlement.

 

[swatgig]

We need a procedure to follow that is specific to Massachusetts.

First step is GTFO of Massachusetts.

Curious as to what happens legally if you store some out of state. In MA they have a list. If they start asking "where's A,B and C?", what happens if you just shrug your shoulders?

They'll charge you with failure to report a lost or stolen gun. Then, even if your somehow you get your license back, they'll turn around and take it back because you're unsuitable. The judge will write "The respondent's failure to maintain control over his firearms or have any knowledge as to their whereabouts suggests the the respondent could potentially create a risk to the public"

 

[Racenet]

I'm guessing that's a case of "tough titty said the kitty but the milks still good", as far as Mass.cops are concerned. they can't take what's not there. Nothing illegal with regards to your firearm being loaned to a legally, authorized friend out of state. I don't imagine that they want to, or are legally authorized, to drive to the Canadian border, for your Ruger 10/22. Ma. Doesn't a court order has to specify a specific address, in the first place?

It doesn't even need to be a friend at all. Nothing illegal with regards to your firearm being taken out of state and just being left there, somewhere.

 

[wiryone1]

All I have to add to this thread is that the SCOTUS needs to slap this sh*t down right now. I don’t have confidence that will happen. Right now the Constitution is in the place of law when they want it to be and not when they don’t. Rights are not a referendum consideration at each state level.

I know the link and some discussion here is attempting to address the practical reality of the situation at hand. But really? Are we all going to give up this (2A) or any other protected individual right that easily? Look at the states saying they will basically ignore the electoral college in this next election cycle. I get that it is not smart to resist when they show up at your door, but if not now, when? At what point do we say no more to all of this crap (all Constitutional trampling)? If we don’t, and we never take a stand, then we have already lost. It is too late when they show up at 3am.

I want to say we need our own resist movement. But I wonder if it would fan the flames of civil war. We will be painted as alt-right nazis by the hard left. I don’t have an answer, but I do know our founders would be very disappointed in us if they could see what we have allowed to happen.

 

[JayMcB]

What happens when there are multiple firearm owners in a residence? My LTC, Wife, LTC, kids FIDs....

Some in NH, some in RI, most in MA, here and there. I know where they all are, they are stored with accordance with the actual state laws. Who owns what?

Fugly trying to 'comply'

Also, my brother has a rifle 'here' and shotgun(s) in NH. What are they going to do about that. How do they take an AR and mags illegal in MA out of NH, and when they're returned after the hearing, does that make you an insta-felon when they're released from Village Vault?

 

[wiryone1]

What happens when there are multiple firearm owners in a residence? My LTC, Wife, LTC, kids FIDs....

Some in NH, some in RI, most in MA. I know where they all are, they are stored with accordance with the actual state laws. Who owns what?

Fugly trying to 'comply'

And does one state with RF get to tell another state without to enforce its “law”?

ETA: kind of like state income tax with MA getting to tax you if you live or work in the state? I guess not all states are equal. Some have more power. Obvious example is the AG with guns trying to bully companies shipping things in.

 

[falcon123]

The article should be titled “How to react...” because there is no prepare. Unless it involves a shovel...

 

[LoginName]

This kind of shit is at least one reason why it might be a good idea to make sure all your firearms are
MA legal... no post-ban 'EBR's', no post-bans in pre-ban configuration, no post ban mags, etc.

Yeah, I know, we all laugh and scoff about pinned stocks and muzzle brakes, buying Pmags from out of state, etc.
Under normal circumstances the man and the twat in the AG's office might not give a f***
and not press charges for having illegal mags, and/or an illegally configured rifle (or they just might... you never
know).

One thing that is guaranteed though is good luck ever getting those items back even if you win big time at the ERPO hearing.
Try making an issue of it and it'll come down to 'are you really sure you want to go down this road. Fine, we'll just charge you
with illegal possession. Now try getting them back'.

 

[308rifleman]

Actually a thought. House designs these days make the engineer in me cringe.

But it seems the best preparation is isolating our weapons storage from our space. While still maintaining the ability to leverage that defensive cache in time of requirement.

Think about a kitchen. Putting it inside the proper house airspace is stupid if one wishes to , say, cook bacon or hamburgers.

Concrete bunker built in a garage? Isolated space from home?

One up that. Put the whole concrete bunker inside a 20 ft shipping container. Just tell them to take the shipping container.

What says you have to open it? Just have them hire a truck and a fork lift and snag it I'd they want it so bad.

At that point you have surrendered your cache. They have to figure out how to deal with it.

The (late) Jeff Cooper wrote about fortified/defensive home designs and his family home at Gunsite in Arizona was his personal design. Cooper was also a fairly wealthy man and could afford things that many of us can't.

 

[308rifleman]

Having something worth living for is a weakness in a way. Wife, kids, house, career, money in the bank, etc. You have to be pretty dedicated to trade that in for the defense of an idea.

But that also goes for the police too. After youve lost a buddy or two going after people who have never hurt a fly prior to this, you might ask yourself if its worth taking a bullet instead of an early retirement. People in command might start asking if its worth sending their guys into a meat grinder on the say so of some POS politician.

Cops' families might be targeted as well. Pablo Escobar and Joaquin "El Chapo" Guzman were notorious for this. The cops will experience the horror of having their wives and children kidnapped or killed. If that is not a deterrent, then show me what is.

 

[Rat187]

Is this 'National Out Yourself' Day ?

 

[M1911]

We need a procedure to follow that is specific to Massachusetts.

Great advice though!

I don’t see how advice could be any different in MA. Don’t resist them. Don’t engage them. Ask to call your lawyer and STFU.

 

[M1911]

I read the article and all I took from it was: comply and hire a lawyer.

That's some keen insight!

And STFU. Don’t ask them who made the complaint.

 

[M1911]

Curious as to what happens legally if you store some out of state. In MA they have a list. If they start asking "where's A,B and C?", what happens if you just shrug your shoulders.

Don’t even do that. Tell them that you will answer all their questions, but first you need to talk to your lawyer. Your lawyer will then tell you to STFU.

 

[drgrant]

What happens when there are multiple firearm owners in a residence? My LTC, Wife, LTC, kids FIDs....

Some in NH, some in RI, most in MA, here and there. I know where they all are, they are stored with accordance with the actual state laws. Who owns what?

Fugly trying to 'comply'

Also, my brother has a rifle 'here' and shotgun(s) in NH. What are they going to do about that. How do they take an AR and mags illegal in MA out of NH, and when they're returned after the hearing, does that make you an insta-felon when they're released from Village Vault?

They don't care, they will just steal everything and then force you and your attorney to push back on the details. The system never gets punished for going full retard, overcharging, or confiscating too many things. Look at what happened in VT recently where they stole guns from some kid's uncle because he made noises about stealing his uncles shit and using it in a school shooting! The Uncle wasn't even the subject of the ERPO per se but somehow the piece of shit judge wrote up the order so it was valid enough for the police to go take the guy's shit.

-Mike

 

[MGnoob]

The article misses some things. In some jurisdictions, a red flag order may not grant the police a de-facto search warrant, but just require you surrender your guns. Do not physically resist, but make it clear to the police you will (a) obey their orders and not resist if they enter without your consent; (b) Make it clear you do not consent and (c) Offer to produce the unloaded and cased gun at your doorstep. Sure, this probably won't change any behavior - but the police will be unable to moot any claims about an invalid search because you consented.

I’m no expert but I would think offering to produce items to be seized to your door step would green light entering your home without a warrant...and may hold up....(not that it really matters)

I probably just would even answer the door in the firstplace if this was even a concern to me....

I’d like to think my local police would know it’s all bullshit... allow me to produce my NFA stuff that isn’t in a trust and can’t be possessed by anyone else. And allow the rest of my stuff to be held by other LTC holders....
I don’t expect black helicopters, hell i don’t even expect the ATF to show up.... but would likely cause me to have to go to them at some point...

While these orders will be used/abused to inconvenience (ruin) a lot of good people.... even if it inconveniences one nutjob it won’t stop one act of violence and if anything it may just push a couple nitjobs over the edge judging by what I’ve read in this thread.... I post some pretty dumb shit,but all the shoot first type posts are likely the people who will expience these ordered first hand.... I guess then we’ll be able to see what’s, what.

 

[Boris]

A good start would be to dox every single piece of shit who let this pass.

I can't even believe how many states have passed this bullshit. It seems like we were talking about it yesterday. Good luck now organizing rallies. Attend a rally and guess what? You are a crazed lunatic, just like in commie China where you got social score and certain behavior makes you less "reliable". These laws will be wielded against gun activists with prejudice.

I just hope that people realize that other gun owners are pretty much in the same boat no matter what and supporting other poor bastards in your clan should take priority. Enough of this fracturing and excuses, if we don't back each other no matter what, it will be easy pickings for .gov.

As to what to do when they come ... you are f***ed, as simple as that. No amount of vaseline will help you if you have been a gun owner for a while and don't have sales slips for every gun on your list. Try to prove otherwise.

 

[enbloc]

At least we know where they will be stored...for a fee.

7 Belmont Street (Route 9) Northboro, MA 01532 508-898-9100
Eliminate the cost, liability and space requirements of 209A gun storage. Let Village Vault take the headache out of gun storage for:

• 209A (restraining order/domestic violence) guns and ammunition
  
  • Storage guns
  • Donated guns
  • Abandoned guns
  • Red Flagged guns
  • Grandpa's WWII war trophy bring-back
  • Grandma's 1902 Scoffield

We are a State and Federally licensed firearms dealer operating a fully insured and bonded public warehouse at our licensed premises. We are centrally located on Route 9 at Route 20 on the Westborough/Northboro line just minutes from the Massachusetts Turnpike and Route 495.

We provide:

• FREE PICKUP at your department.
  
  • On-Site inventory, description and receipt at your department.
  • Certified written notice to the owner of record concerning a formal firearms inventory and storage terms.
  • Legal and proper firearms transfers in compliance with State and Federal law.
  • Analysis of items that are inoperable, unsafe and should be destroyed.
  • All firearms are individually boxed, coded and securely stored in our bonded, climate controlled, fully licensed firearms facility in accordance with standards set by the Executive Office of Public Safety.
    
    "We do it right... by the book, Screw Legal Gun-Owners"

 

[Chevy 2 65]

And STFU. Don’t ask them who made the complaint.

Thats the lawyers job.

 

[Dadstoys]

What happens when there are multiple firearm owners in a residence? My LTC, Wife, LTC, kids FIDs....

Some in NH, some in RI, most in MA, here and there. I know where they all are, they are stored with accordance with the actual state laws. Who owns what?

Fugly trying to 'comply'

Also, my brother has a rifle 'here' and shotgun(s) in NH. What are they going to do about that. How do they take an AR and mags illegal in MA out of NH, and when they're returned after the hearing, does that make you an insta-felon when they're released from Village Vault?

Moot point .
By the time this gets squared away your not getting them back from the village vault.
The "Storage fees " will be far higher than the value of the guns.

 

[308rifleman]

Because you will die, the media can easily cast you only as a "nutbag", and because of the relatively short dialogue, nobody will care. I can think of more productive, less suicidal ways of dealing with this stuff, both with and without violence. Regardless of how you want to deal with it, just know that bringing the fight on your own terms, violent or not, is usually going to pay far better dividends.

See also: stacking cords of wood instead of just settling for a couple logs.....

-Mike

You have to wait until the odds are in your favor. The IRA told their British overlords that they have to be lucky at all times while the IRA volunteers have to be lucky only once. They got Lord Mountbatten among their many kills of British enemies.

 

[10thSFFD]

A good start would be to dox every single piece of shit who let this pass.

I can't even believe how many states have passed this bullshit. It seems like we were talking about it yesterday. Good luck now organizing rallies. Attend a rally and guess what? You are a crazed lunatic, just like in commie China where you got social score and certain behavior makes you less "reliable". These laws will be wielded against gun activists with prejudice.

I just hope that people realize that other gun owners are pretty much in the same boat no matter what and supporting other poor bastards in your clan should take priority. Enough of this fracturing and excuses, if we don't back each other no matter what, it will be easy pickings for .gov.

As to what to do when they come ... you are f***ed, as simple as that. No amount of vaseline will help you if you have been a gun owner for a while and don't have sales slips for every gun on your list. Try to prove otherwise.

Boris, why do I have that nagging feeling that we have been in this movie before?

View: https://youtu.be/_TLiRxwFCk0

 

[Chevy 2 65]

A good start would be to dox every single piece of shit who let this pass.

I can't even believe how many states have passed this bullshit. It seems like we were talking about it yesterday. Good luck now organizing rallies. Attend a rally and guess what? You are a crazed lunatic, just like in commie China where you got social score and certain behavior makes you less "reliable". These laws will be wielded against gun activists with prejudice.

I just hope that people realize that other gun owners are pretty much in the same boat no matter what and supporting other poor bastards in your clan should take priority. Enough of this fracturing and excuses, if we don't back each other no matter what, it will be easy pickings for .gov.

As to what to do when they come ... you are f***ed, as simple as that. No amount of vaseline will help you if you have been a gun owner for a while and don't have sales slips for every gun on your list. Try to prove otherwise.

This says it best about how gun owners are organized. Great movie too.


View: https://youtu.be/qFLUoA0nLLs

 

[Rob Boudrie]

m no expert but I would think offering to produce items to be seized to your door step would green light entering your home without a warrant...and may hold up....(not that it really matters)

The order is to seize all guns, not a search warrant. By offering to produce the guns in a non-threatening manner you remove the "we had to enter because he refused to turn over the guns" and have a much stronger case if there is a warrantless search.

Refusing to produce guns when ordered to surrender such provides a stronger basis for a search than cooperating with the order but not consenting to search or entry.