How to record sales to out of state dealer/auction house on FA10?

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

I am going to be putting some long guns and handguns into an out of state auction and they all have FA10's associated with them. I know that the FRB will have me in the chain of custody forever but when I sell guns whether privately or to a Mass dealer I put either the PP's license number or the Dealers Mass License number into the eFA10 and it brings up their info. However it doesn't accept their 01 number only a Mass Dealer Number.
So the question is how do I do an eFA10 to get the chain of custody from me to the new person?

 

[aphextwin11]

I'm not a lawyer but I'm pretty sure that if you sell to a resident or entity domiciled in another state then the transaction needs to go through an FFL according to federal rules.

For the state of MA specifically, e-FA10 has been described to me as a landfill by competent legal counsel. It's a repository of transactions and is not a registry, and the aggregate data integrity is sketchy at best. There are a myriad of ways you could have a 'sold-to-you' transaction and no longer own the firearm with zero risk exposure, none of which would be dubious. All e-FA10 does is say on 'xyz' date there was a transfer between person A and person B. It's akin to a CVS/Walgreens receipt - it tells you what headache medicine you bought at a point in time, it does not serve as a reliable inventory of everything in your medicine cabinet.

It's also worth noting that an unintended consequence of the new law is that there is no longer a requirement to document transfers in e-FA10 anyhow, so it's not worth spending time worrying about. Like I said though, I'm not a lawyer and I'm 95% sure federal law requires FFL transfers between residents of two different states.

Also - I love your profile picture. I day dream about having a backyard observatory some day and it looks like you've got the Cadillac of setups!

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

They why do the auction companies like Amoskeg and Rock Island come here to get guns for the auctions or do they only go to the dealers and you have to meet them at a dealers?

 

[aphextwin11]

They why do the auction companies like Amoskeg and Rock Island come here to get guns for the auctions or do they only go to the dealers and you have to meet them at a dealers?

I have no idea, I've never used or heard of either. I'm sure they're great, I've just never bought/sold at auction before

 

[KMM696]

I am going to be putting some long guns and handguns into an out of state auction and they all have FA10's associated with them. I know that the FRB will have me in the chain of custody forever but when I sell guns whether privately or to a Mass dealer I put either the PP's license number or the Dealers Mass License number into the eFA10 and it brings up their info. However it doesn't accept their 01 number only a Mass Dealer Number.
So the question is how do I do an eFA10 to get the chain of custody from me to the new person?

You don't. The FA-10 system is not designed or intended to accept transfers to out of state entities including 01 FFLs.
If you're concerned about chain of custody, you'll have to use something else to show it than the MA system.

No idea how/why Amoskeeg and RI handles pickups here - they might have an MA dealers license as well as an 01.

 

[TLB]

 

[Kevin_NH]

I'm not a lawyer but I'm pretty sure that if you sell to a resident or entity domiciled in another state then the transaction needs to go through an FFL according to federal rules.
...
It's also worth noting that an unintended consequence of the new law is that there is no longer a requirement to document transfers in e-FA10 anyhow, so it's not worth spending time worrying about. Like I said though, I'm not a lawyer and I'm 95% sure federal law requires FFL transfers between residents of two different states.

Correct. OTOH, under Federal law, an FFL can acquire a firearm directly from a private seller in any state. Mileage may vary in MA.
When I buy from a MA resident, we meet at a FFL in NH, and the transfer is run through the NH dealer's book -- no FA10 involved.

 

[richc]

Correct. OTOH, under Federal law, an FFL can acquire a firearm directly from a private seller in any state. Mileage may vary in MA.
When I buy from a MA resident, we meet at a FFL in NH, and the transfer is run through the NH dealer's book -- no FA10 involved.

But... but... but... how does MA know that gun is no longer in your possession!

They don't. And that's the point of my statement.

A friend recently passed after a tough bout of dementia. PD wanted his guns while he was alive, as he had threatened his wife. They had a list of dozens of guns. Most he didn't have, but had sold off here or there. Because MA has no clue of when you dispose of a gun, but the PD pretends like the person must still have it.

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

I just talked to the FRB and they are sending me 10 paper FA10's to fill out for any guns I sell to an out of state dealer.

Dealer name in last name field, no DOB and add address, full description of gun as before. So they are still accepting paper FA10's for these cases.

Correct. OTOH, under Federal law, an FFL can acquire a firearm directly from a private seller in any state. Mileage may vary in MA.
When I buy from a MA resident, we meet at a FFL in NH, and the transfer is run through the NH dealer's book -- no FA10 involved.

That leaves the gun still in the sellers record as being the current owner. They need to do a paper FA10 per FRB or they may not care, most people don't and aren't as anal as me.

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

You don't. The FA-10 system is not designed or intended to accept transfers to out of state entities including 01 FFLs.
If you're concerned about chain of custody, you'll have to use something else to show it than the MA system.

No idea how/why Amoskeeg and RI handles pickups here - they might have an MA dealers license as well as an 01.

FRB says to fill out a paper FA10 they are sending me 10.

 

[KMM696]

FRB says to fill out a paper FA10 they are sending me 10.

Not laughing at you Ben, laughing at the FRB. The same FRB that told us paper FA-10s can't be used anymore, but has just realized they are going to miss out of state firearms transactions under the new law because their registration database doesn't exist yet, just told you to use paper FA-10s, which they still have and are sending to you.

f*** the Commonwealth.

 

[Lefty38-55]

Off-topic, but be VERY cautious dealing with auction houses!

They will promise you the world, but in the end, they are just out to make money (off BOTH the Seller & the Buyer) and they don’t care one whit how much $$$ you eventually get … which will be taxed in case you weren’t aware of that.

A friend, an ‘adopted’ Uncle had a collection of over 50 Mausers. I tried to convince the family to have them sold via Noah Motors as he is well connected to the Mauser and milsurp community, as most were either as issued or looked like they just came from the Armory.

In the end, the family got screwed, the auction house put them out in lots of 4 to 5 rifles out in the same auction, where 4 Swedish Mausers went for $800. His collection was probably worth $80K in our estimate and they were lucky to get not even $30K before taxes …

One other example was a 1903 Springfield, where you know the value is depending on which model and the serial number. They just treat them as a generic 1903, where the one he had sold for only $600 and our estimate was worth 4 to 5 times that much due to condition, model and serialization.

 

[Rick O'Shea]

I'll sleep soundly knowing this extra paperwork is available to fill out even thought it's not the law!

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

Off-topic, but be VERY cautious dealing with auction houses!

They will promise you the world, but in the end, they are just out to make money (off BOTH the Seller & the Buyer) and they don’t care one whit how much $$$ you eventually get … which will be taxed in case you weren’t aware of that.

A friend, an ‘adopted’ Uncle had a collection of over 50 Mausers. I tried to convince the family to have them sold via Noah Motors as he is well connected to the Mauser and milsurp community, as most were either as issued or looked like they just came from the Armory.

In the end, the family got screwed, the auction house put them out in lots of 4 to 5 rifles out in the same auction, where 4 Swedish Mausers went for $800. His collection was probably worth $80K in our estimate and they were lucky to get not even $30K before taxes …

One other example was a 1903 Springfield, where you know the value is depending on which model and the serial number. They just treat them as a generic 1903, where the one he had sold for only $600 and our estimate was worth 4 to 5 times that much due to condition, model and serialization.

My dealer I usually use is in N. Dartmouth which is an hour drive and due to health issues and a couple problems with the car the hour drive is too much right now. Also he didn't like the headspacing on a Enfield No 1, just an average gun. Just have a few so so guns, couple of 10-22's and a 15-22 and the Enfield No 1 and an old 1917 30.06 with a dark bore.
A friend had used the auction house and recommended them to me.

 

[drgrant]

Why? It's none of their business

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

Why? It's none of their business

have you ever told that to the police/FBI/BATFE? Just wondering what their reaction would be...

 

[drgrant]

have you ever told that to the police/FBI/BATFE? Just wondering what their reaction would be...

I would cross that bridge when I got to it if necessary.... but there's no up front obligation to report an event that's literally way outside the states jurisdiction. Keep a record of the FFL that the guns were disposed to and that's literally all you would ever possibly need. This is literally no different than every other dealer-based transaction. I've never used an fa10 to report an outbound to any dealer regardless of their location it's simply not necessary.

 

[MAJoe]

have you ever told that to the police/FBI/BATFE? Just wondering what their reaction would be...

How does it work in the 40+ states that have no state firearm transaction reporting requirements?

 

[M1911]

You had no obligation to tell the FRB about the out of state sale. And dollars to donuts, in six months if you ask the FRB for the list of guns associated with your LTC, the guns that you just told them that you sold out of state will still be there.

 

[EJFudd]

You had no obligation to tell the FRB about the out of state sale. And dollars to donuts, in six months if you ask the FRB for the list of guns associated with your LTC, the guns that you just told them that you sold out of state will still be there.

... and that bothers some members who have read the various threads about cops going around confiscating guns. It didn't have to be that way, but stupidity led to that option (i.e., legal transfer/sales to out-of-state FFLs) being left out of the eFA-10 transfers registration system. We all hate it, but if the state expected us to use it, the state should at least have recognized all legal transfer possibilities.

Yes, I know. The system is in limbo... some would say dead. But the state expects it to rise again in a new, much uglier and unconstitutional form unless we start winning some 2A court battles.

 

[M1911]

... and that bothers some members who have read the various threads about cops going around confiscating guns. It didn't have to be that way, but stupidity led to that option (i.e., legal transfer/sales to out-of-state FFLs) being left out of the eFA-10 transfers registration system. We all hate it, but if the state expected us to use it, the state should at least have recognized all legal transfer possibilities.

Yes, I know. The system is in limbo... some would say dead. But the state expects it to rise again in a new, much uglier and unconstitutional form unless we start winning some court battles.

But even if you somehow report the transaction to the FRB, the guns stay on your record. No matter what you do, if the cops come knocking on your door, they are going to ask for guns that you sold. If you sell a gun through a MA dealer, you don’t get an fa-10 for the sale.

No matter what you do, the guns still appear in the FRB’s database as though you own them. So I don’t see how jumping through these hoops has achieved a damn thing.

 

[EJFudd]

But even if you somehow report the transaction to the FRB, the guns stay on your record. No matter what you do, if the cops come knocking on your door, they are going to ask for guns that you sold. If you sell a gun through a MA dealer, you don’t get an fa-10 for the sale.

No matter what you do, the guns still appear in the FRB’s database as though you own them. So I don’t see how jumping through these hoops has achieved a damn thing.

I think we all know that the transfers registration system is a "write only" database. But unless the FRB is grossly stupid & incompetent, they can run the database to see what you owned that was subsequently transferred or re-sold to a different person or a MA FFL (everything legal but a foreign FFL, unfortunately).

Things have changed over time, but the current expectation of the state is that a seller register a transfer/sale to a MA dealer or to an individual using the eFA-10 system... or at least that was the expectation until the new law passed putting everything in limbo.

 

[M1911]

I think we all know that the transfers registration system is a "write only" database. But unless the FRB is grossly stupid & incompetent, they can run the database to see what you owned that was subsequently transferred or re-sold to a different person or a MA FFL (everything but a foreign FFL, unfortunately).

It is my understanding that if you ask the FRB for a report of your guns, it still includes guns subsequently sold for which there are fa-10 records. So it is my understanding that when cops come looking, they come looking for guns that you sold and reported to the FRB.

So, yes, the FRB is grossly stupid and incompetent.

 

[jakeroub]

So what do the cops do when they come for your guns and you say, “I sold them all out of state.”?

 

[M1911]

So what do the cops do when they come for your guns and you say, “I sold them all out of state.”?

They threaten.

 

[DW357]

Why? It's none of their business

This. Jesus Christ people why are you so concerned with the state knowing what you no longer have. You can’t “unregister” guns.

 

[67ray]

So what do the cops do when they come for your guns and you say, “I sold them all out of state.”?

You get a lawyer.

 

[67ray]

FRB says to fill out a paper FA10 they are sending me 10.

You don't need to do that. If you sell them out state, get a receipt from the FFL with the gun's serial number on it. If Commiewealth comes asking you can show them the receipt. Or, tell them the FFL and tell them to check his bound book. It's not your responsibility.