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How to reduce standard deviation?
- Thread starter paul73
- Start date
Shooting supply has benchmark but no Varget
www.northeastshooters.com
WTS - Shooting Supply Powder Update 11-16-21
Shooting Supply 848 State Rd Westport MA 02790 774-319-5477 Monday to Saturday 10 to 6 Please call the shop if you have any questions at 774-319-5477 Sorry we do not ship powder or primers. Name Price 231 1 LB $47.99 2400 1 LB $43.99 2400 4 LBS $129.99 2400 8 LBS $215.99 244 1 LB...
www.northeastshooters.com
I kinda doubt they have anything at all at that store. Not that I would drive there for 1.5hrs one way to find out. Eventually it has to appear somewhere online.Shooting supply has benchmark but no Varget
WTS - Shooting Supply Powder Update 11-16-21
Shooting Supply 848 State Rd Westport MA 02790 774-319-5477 Monday to Saturday 10 to 6 Please call the shop if you have any questions at 774-319-5477 Sorry we do not ship powder or primers. Name Price 231 1 LB $47.99 2400 1 LB $43.99 2400 4 LBS $129.99 2400 8 LBS $215.99 244 1 LB...
For me, the biggest factor to reduce my numbers was a better scale. When I switched from a magnetic balance scale to a digital scale (that measured to hundredths of a grain) my numbers dropped about 2/3.
Dave
Dave
Yep, and Gene will price according to his cost. If it's something bought before the covid craziness, you'll see a normal price. If the price looks crazy high, it's because his cost was awful but he bought some to have stock.
1903Collector
NES Member
This is the best I’ve done with the 308 since I got a LabRadar. I sorted bullets and cases by weight and runout and checked each charge on two different scales. I don't have access to my notes but the powder was either BLC-2 or 4895.
Hold on!!
So, found my back up notes on a flash drive, the data below was 6.5 Creedmoor, 140gr ELD Match bullet and 40.5gr of Hybrid V100, BR-2 primers, 3.185" from the ogive. Fired out of my Ruger RPR.
Hold on!!
So, found my back up notes on a flash drive, the data below was 6.5 Creedmoor, 140gr ELD Match bullet and 40.5gr of Hybrid V100, BR-2 primers, 3.185" from the ogive. Fired out of my Ruger RPR.
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I can very much relate to that.I actually follow most of what you said.
One thing that bothers me - I highly doubt that creedmoore sports went over even remotely comparable sophistication for factory loads I was plinking today and they were much more consistent speed wise.
I may have to try adjusting neck tension on my 600 yard loads. I can get precision down to 3/4 MOA like you, but also get crazy SDs and ESs in velocity. I didn’t consistently weigh brass or primers, but use only new good quality brass and am extremely fastidious about powder weight and seating depth. My powders were RE15 and Varget.
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There are so many powders for 223 and it seems for everyone who hates X theres someone who loves it.I wait for 8202 to arrive, varget is an unobtainium now online, I cannot scout stores.
TAC was easier to find so far. 8208 I saw only once and was lucky to get 2 cans only.
Yep, I want varget.twist is 1:8.
Old timer at one of the club swears by win 748 for AR 223
Some times you just have to toss what ever tour currently doing aside.
I gave the Hornady 75 grain tipped ammo a run for a while and was never happy with results. 20” 1/8 twist Wylde chamber and then those Hornady 55gn fmjs whould group better at 100 yards.
I raised it enough to make sure nothing gets crimped.
It needs a bit more work, and even if all I get from those reloads will be 3/4 moa with TAC - so be it.
Rifle is fine, I am not going to alter it. I have another LaRue and it shoots comparably.
For my long range 6.5CM precision load I changed to Lawrence case trimmer to improve case length consistency and then added another case cleaning after trim and bevel of case mouth. Powder was from rcbs charge master scale. I get low teens to high single digit SDs with a LabRadar.
I’m going to try same technique with AR loads after hunting season
I’m going to try same technique with AR loads after hunting season
Tallahassee
NES Member
Everyone looses sleep from SD's and directly relates it to powder weights and / or bullet weights because these are the easiest to alter. There's a LOT of variables that factor when attempring to minimise SD's. Neck tension, case capacity , neck wall thickness uniformity. I've documented about 1020 test sessions and i've observed 4 moa accuracy with single digit SD's and .28 moa accuracy with SD's at 20 fps so I don't beat myself up over elevated SD's.
When I get a load that will be 7 out of 10 in 1/2moa from that rifle I will stop checking and will start just stamping them out.
Right now I just cannot get such a load using available components.
May be SMK bullets will be better but I still want to win a fight with 73gn ELD hornady
I run 69 noslers , I have never really tested them for “accuracy” but I can keep them under 3 moa prone,sling, irons
Matches are over so maybe I will bench test some of my better loads I get good scores with
Nos 69 CC's are excellent shooting bullets. I shoot them weekly out to 600 yds from my 223 Savage 110FP and a 24-ish gr Varget or Reloader 15. Even the SPS Blems shoot excellent as well, and you can score good deals when SPS has the blems in stock.
xtry51
NES Member
My input, no particular order.
TAC sucks for precision .223. I have a lot of it. Like 24lbs or so. It's great for plinking/training ammo.
55gr bullets suck for precision .223 compared to 69-77gr offerings that are also mag length capable and use less powder.
Almost all my accurate loads for .223 are high on the load values. Your load is light for 55gr w TAC, which ball powders don't like.
Varget and Reloader 15 are better powders for accurate 223, especially over wider temp ranges.
You have to measure bullet seating from ogive and have a die with a correct stem for the bullet you're using.
Are you up against, or right at the lands if not loading to mag length? This can cause high ES/SD.
Are you loading mag length or hand loading into chamber? Is your gun altering OAL when the round is chambered? (I.e. are your feed ramps jacked or neck tension too low?)
I'm hoping your brass is all from same batch, same firings and same trim length.
Neck tension is very important. Too much and SD will go up. Too little and your bullets will change OAL before they are fired. Most of the precision guys I watch like Eric Cortina are using .002"
Annealing is important to neck tension and SD. Cortina has some videos showing even different annealing machine produce different ES/SD numbers. He's using an AMP now.
TAC sucks for precision .223. I have a lot of it. Like 24lbs or so. It's great for plinking/training ammo.
55gr bullets suck for precision .223 compared to 69-77gr offerings that are also mag length capable and use less powder.
Almost all my accurate loads for .223 are high on the load values. Your load is light for 55gr w TAC, which ball powders don't like.
Varget and Reloader 15 are better powders for accurate 223, especially over wider temp ranges.
You have to measure bullet seating from ogive and have a die with a correct stem for the bullet you're using.
Are you up against, or right at the lands if not loading to mag length? This can cause high ES/SD.
Are you loading mag length or hand loading into chamber? Is your gun altering OAL when the round is chambered? (I.e. are your feed ramps jacked or neck tension too low?)
I'm hoping your brass is all from same batch, same firings and same trim length.
Neck tension is very important. Too much and SD will go up. Too little and your bullets will change OAL before they are fired. Most of the precision guys I watch like Eric Cortina are using .002"
Annealing is important to neck tension and SD. Cortina has some videos showing even different annealing machine produce different ES/SD numbers. He's using an AMP now.
I am loading to mag length. SMK I loaded now to 2.260”.
Brass was from same batch, but I did not yet got type s die nor tools for neck turning - I am only reading about it so far.
Brass was once shot, ran through FL die to shorten by 0.002”, trimmed to same size. As I works press more I can tell now by feel if neck tension is uniform- probably was not enough.
Thx for the response and advice.
xtry51
NES Member
If you want to see how insane things make big neck tension differences, watch this video by F-Class John. You can watch whole thing or jump to 27:07 where he shows the force required to seat for Giraud vs Henderson. Rest of his brass prep is exactly the same.
You can go insanely deep on reloading and F-Class and Benchrest are all over the minutea.
View: https://youtu.be/cAp9a5-f04I
You can go insanely deep on reloading and F-Class and Benchrest are all over the minutea.
View: https://youtu.be/cAp9a5-f04I
I am using this trimmer now and it seems to be adequate- easy to setup and accurate.
Frankford Arsenal Universal Precision Case Trimmer with HSS Construction, Drill Press or Hand Drill Functionality and Storage Case for Reloading Amazon product ASIN B07KT8D31QView: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07KT8D31Q/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_JK3TQ4KB57YXRPVYXYVD?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
The parts of the process I still fail to fully understand a need for are neck turning and annealing. I used this article for the reference so far:
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www.accurateshooter.com
The neck turning step - is it supposed to be done before neck sizing die? Does new or 1-2 times shot brass really need it?
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greencobra
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didn't read the whole thread so this may have been mentioned...case volume. check the volume of each case, cull them out in groups that measure the same and shoot them for your individual string(s). i think the case in question here is .223/5.56. the smaller the case, the greater the velocity/sd difference if there is any significant difference in case volume. when me and my buddies were living and dying by the chronograph and standard deviation this is what the bench rest guys advised. and it goes without saying all the other stuff mentioned in the thread have to be the same as well, case length, seating depth and on and on and on.
oh, we measured case capacity by water volume. everyone checks the outside of the case, no one pays attention to the inside. did it help? yes, if the planets were aligned that day.
oh, we measured case capacity by water volume. everyone checks the outside of the case, no one pays attention to the inside. did it help? yes, if the planets were aligned that day.
i tried to do it this time, a bit, but i still see a diff in cases weight - it is all same batch - to be in area of up to 5gn. the article i postwd above says to set them within a .5gn - i do not think i have a single pair of cases there in .223 usual set that was that close, consistently.
actually, the IMI brass i processed was much closer weight wise one to another, and overall much lighter than creedmoor sports - latter was in the 105gn area, IMI was more like 96gn.
i am still trying to absorb all that neck prep thing. will try reading more today about it all.
ps. i really get to a point here where i start feeling how fun turns into a masochism
- so it will be some point to stop and just try to maintain some minimally acceptable level of quality, as an absolute perfection is unachievable here. and i am already at the point of saturation from buying more and more and more tools. time to use that i already got.
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