How to reduce standard deviation?

The parts of the process I still fail to fully understand a need for are neck turning and annealing. I used this article for the reference so far:

The neck turning step - is it supposed to be done before neck sizing die? Does new or 1-2 times shot brass really need it?
One old-time champion benchrester characterized all of this in terms of "identity" (his characterization of the highest level of consistency). In theory, if you restrict your thinking to the ammo only (everything from the rifle to the environment to the shooter also affects both precision and accuracy), if you were actually able fire the SAME cartridge over and over again (obviously fantasy), the round SHOULD perform exactly the same way each time. So, the goal is to make every cartridge EXACTLY the same as every other.

Case weights/lengths/volumes/etc. are all approaches to be able to sort brass so you load cartridges that are identical to each other (in the limit). None of these actually achieve "identity" as even small changes in case dimensions affect pressure gradients/flash vortices/burn kinetics/etc. which COULD change when the bullet leaves the case and the dynamics of that departure.

The two techniques you mention (neck turning and annealing) get used to make the cases "more similar" to each other. There are variations in wall thicknesses between cases and at different points around a single case. Variations may lead to less case deformation at one point of the neck than another during firing, and they COULD affect consistency of how the bullet is released at different points around the case neck. Turning removes thicker parts of the neck so that the brass is the same thickness all the way around the area holding the bullet.

Working the brass causes "hardening" of the metal, which also changes the holding/release characteristics of the neck on the bullet. The process of annealing is intended to return the hardened brass to it's initial, softer state. Ideally, every case will have brass of the same thickness/length/dimensions/hardness/etc. so that every case acts as if it is identical to every other one.

Turning is usually only done once (just like flash hole uniforming). The case neck needs to be concentric in order for the turning blade to leave the neck "perfectly" circular, so sizing and mandrel expanding to make the inside of the case neck "perfectly" circular is generally considered to be the starting point. Then, the turning blade running around the outside of the case neck carves off the high points until the brass is all the same thickness.

Every time you fire and size the case you're introducing changes to the shape/thickness/physicial characteristics of the brass. I don't think "rabbit hole" even begins to describe how crazy this gets. The amount of time/effort/money you invest in making your handloads "identical" is probably dependent only on how rich and how nuts you are, and how precise you actually need your ammo to be. If the precision is your hobby, have at it. If "good enough" is good enough, just decide early on which parts of the insanity you're just not willing to endure. [wink]
 
If you intend to get real serious with consistency, A positive step in the right direction of gaining neck tension consistency is to invest in a set of Redding competition bushing dies.
 
Turning is usually only done once (just like flash hole uniforming)
well, i get the idea of the theory, just trying to see how the flow is supposed to go.

the article i posted above does not even consider a practical use case of the used brass that needs to be deprimed first.
they say there to run it through the full body die - but somehow it is not supposed to affect the neck - and there are no such dies, as FL die will squeeze the neck.
so, supposedly we need to deprime and squeeze the body but do not touch the neck.

plus the picture in Step1 shows a neck sizing die, while they speak of some 'Redding Body Die'. confusing.

then we need to run it through the specific k&m expander to get necks to the same internal diameter. but a shot brass neck may be ALREADY larger than that K&M tool.
unless we ran it via usual FL die and smash it all the way in. but that will torture the brass more and removes the purpose of the type S bushing die that is supposed to minimize the neck resizing.

So.
If it gets done only once - then the idea would be to run shot brass via regular FL die, get neck squeezed. then expand it witl K&M uniform expander. then run it through the neck turner to get same metal thickness - and NEVER do it again? is that the idea of neck turning flow?

i somehow understood they do neck turning after each firing - but does it mean then neck needs to be resized 3 times during the flow? it sounds stupid.

PS. article link:

PPS. i am actually quite intrigued about what they speak of in step 11. 'Method: K&M has developed a mandrel that will fit the neck-turning tool. The mandrel’s end is configured to cut excess metal from the neck. A Sinclair length trimming tool can be used to make the heads square with the base.'
I get a feel that if all we want is a uniform internal neck chamber with same diameter - then, is it actually the only required step to be done after the Type S die? to run all shells via that specific mandrel?
I am not that inclined to buy all that, as quick glance shows that the set of all those K&M gizmos seems to run into a $300 minimum, and i do not have a clear enough understanding what all that will actually provide , if anything at all compared to a simple run of a brass brush inside of the shells neck after type s die resizing.

i think, realistically, if i will be able to establish a flow with SD in the area of 40-20 fps - it will be satisfactory enough. i did not like the SD in the 120fps range, so, that is now the issue to be resolved - but i am definitely not going after what those youtubers are showing. it is too insane for me.
 
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If you intend to get real serious with consistency, A positive step in the right direction of gaining neck tension consistency is to invest in a set of Redding competition bushing dies.
it is redding competition seating die and the redding type s bushing FL die. there is also type S neck only die - if flow presumes separation of the body sizing from neck sizing - i am not clear on that as there is no full body dies i am aware of that would not size the neck as well, plus, i am not sure i am masochistic enough to even consider such a flow.
still, as i keep reading - it is supposedly possible.
 
If it gets done only once - then the idea would be to run shot brass via regular FL die, get neck squeezed. then expand it witl K&M uniform expander. then run it through the neck turner to get same metal thickness - and NEVER do it again? is that the idea of neck turning flow?

i somehow understood they do neck turning after each firing - but does it mean then neck needs to be resized 3 times during the flow? it sounds stupid.

PPS. i am actually quite intrigued about what they speak of in step 11. 'Method: K&M has developed a mandrel that will fit the neck-turning tool. The mandrel’s end is configured to cut excess metal from the neck. A Sinclair length trimming tool can be used to make the heads square with the base.'
I get a feel that if all we want is a uniform internal neck chamber with same diameter - then, is it actually the only required step to be done after the Type S die? to run all shells via that specific mandrel?
I am not that inclined to buy all that, as quick glance shows that the set of all those K&M gizmos seems to run into a $300 minimum, and i do not have a clear enough understanding what all that will actually provide , if anything at all compared to a simple run of a brass brush inside of the shells neck after type s die resizing.

i think, realistically, if i will be able to establish a flow with SD in the area of 40-20 fps - it will be satisfactory enough. i did not like the SD in the 120fps range, so, that is now the issue to be resolved - but i am definitely not going after what those youtubers are showing. it is too insane for me.
You're last sentence probably sets the standard. Most only turn necks one time per case life. This gets you a good "starting point" that addresses some of the manufacturing issues. It is sometimes done on new brass if the neck needs to fit into a tight custom chamber. Some ignore turning in favor of buying high quality brass that has tight manufacturing tolerances (like Lapua).

The article does mention turning necks after each fire forming to address structure changes caused by flow of the brass during firing. They also recommend re-turning of these cases with the tool set exactly as it was during the initial turning (theoretically bringing the neck thickness back to spec). Of course, this only addresses areas of the neck that become THICKER during the fire forming. If brass flows away from a given area leaving a thinner wall area, re-turning to the initial dimension will NOT address that variance.

Part of the step 11-reference tool is to address the "doughnut" that can form in the inside of the case neck. Turning a neck that is not concentric before turning is a fools errand. The turning blade only removed material from the outside of the neck, so if the inside of the neck is not concentric and circular, turning will only make the wall thickness variances around the neck WORSE. We're back to "insane". One can theorize/observe/measure all of the possible ways cases are not "identical" to each other, and then apply tools/processes to remove those variations. (BTW, if you remove the bushing from a type S die it becomes a body die.) Again, theoretically, those efforts should improve precision...theoretically. Everyone makes choices about how far to go with this before calling "NOPE". Even in the article you cite for precision case preparation, you might note that they recommend periodically knocking the powder residue (ash?) out of the fired cases. That residue has mass and dimension (minuscule as it might be). So this author is OK with letting that residue build up inside the cases (changing dimensions/volume) to some extent before addressing it (crudely by knocking it out of the case). If you don't deprime and clean brass, you leave residue in the primer pocket. If you don't trim after EVERY firing/sizing cycle, the length of brass holding the bullet varies, etc., etc., etc. It is all theoretically fascinating (and entertaining to me, obviously) to consider and discuss. We all have to decide where to draw the line. Your goal of establishing a flow producing <40 FPS SD is reasonable. Repetitive neck turning, annealing, inside neck reaming, roll sizing, etc. are NOT required to achieve that goal. Have fun pursuing your objectives, but beyond that (and in the words of Monty Python) RUN AWAY!!
 
Waiting for heads to explode when people find out that F Class shooters like Cortina don't clean their brass before reloading it at all, let alone clean primer pockets. Lol.
Wait, are you suggesting that I can't compensate for my shitty trigger technique by making more perfecter ammo in the loading room???? It almost sounds like you're implying that world-class shooters can produce world-class results on target even using "good enough" ammo?? Sacrilege!!![angry2]
 
Waiting for heads to explode when people find out that F Class shooters like Cortina don't clean their brass before reloading it at all, let alone clean primer pockets. Lol.
i would suspect on his behalf it is not his ignorance but a knowledge of what the acceptable boundaries are before it needs work. on my case with absence of any prior knowledge :) all i can do is to follow the instructions and expect some repeatable results, if the routine is maintained.
it kinda gets there, slowly. at least with .223 old brass i got i can see now better what the issues are, and how to attempt fixing them.
it is windy today and cold tomorrow, so, not sure when i will be able to test those loads i`ve made so far, will see.
will try to bake some 6.5CM now, as i think i got the general idea of what to do and how to do it.
 
He's prodding you on whether the gun/ammo is holding you back, or if you're holding them back.

223 is a lot harder to reduce error on as the case volume is low. Bigger cartridges are "more forgiving" because as case volume increases the % deviation of charge goes down plus normally your projectile weight goes up which also "damps" the SD/ES numbers.
 
Different brands of cases will do that. Also a case that's been reloaded once vs a case that's been reloaded a few times will make a difference. Eddie Coyle taught me that.
 
He's prodding you on whether the gun/ammo is holding you back, or if you're holding them back.

223 is a lot harder to reduce error on as the case volume is low. Bigger cartridges are "more forgiving" because as case volume increases the % deviation of charge goes down plus normally your projectile weight goes up which also "damps" the SD/ES numbers.
that is ok. :) i know he was prodding.

so, i just got 8208 xbr and loaded ladder of SMK bullets. then tried to load 73gn ELD hornadys and i do not have a good feel about it.
the youtube i saw was suggesting to use 22.8 max load with it - so, at least with cases i have it seems not to fit to normal prescribed 2.250" depth with 22.8gn of powder.
best that works is 2.263" with compression. the max non compressed load with 8208 and 73gn bullet is 22.4gn at 2.260".

i then measured to ogive sierras, and it seems that even at 2.260" instead of prescribed 2.250" the hornady sits 0.060" or so deeper than SMK.
as you cannot really fit anything longer than 2.260" into the magazine it seems to be placing those hornady bullets into quite a disadvantage, as it seems to be doing a 0.182" jump with COL of 2.260. that makes a 2.250 COL to jump for .190"+.

does it seem as a bit too much? SMK jump to lands at stock 2.260" COL is 0.130".
 
Personally I've never had an issue jumping, meaning the gun always shot better thrn me when benched. 18" BCM Match upper 1:7. Benched it's a 1/2 minute gun.

I would give 5 of them a whirl to see where your primers are at (good, flat, crater, etc) and how it groups. If it's at least as good as the SMKs, then go back and load 3 rounds in .2gr increments up and/or down depending what you see on primers. Then see what load node is best.
 
Personally, I try not to think of numbers too much. You can end up chasing your tail all Winter looking for that "perfect load".
The only thing I care about is results on target.

When using electronic targets that measure velocity at distance, my SD over 20 rds is usually in the mid-20's. That's at 600 yards, Sierra/Nosler 77's OR Berger 82's, 23.2 grains of 8208 DUMPED with a Dillon 650 into factory-primed Wolf 223 cases. Others trickle every charge and have SD's under 10, but their scores aren't any better: if the sights are in the 9- ring when you pull the trigger, it's going to be a 9.
Unless you are in contention for a world-record score, load in quantity and shoot more.
 
One old-time champion benchrester characterized all of this in terms of "identity" (his characterization of the highest level of consistency). In theory, if you restrict your thinking to the ammo only (everything from the rifle to the environment to the shooter also affects both precision and accuracy), if you were actually able fire the SAME cartridge over and over again (obviously fantasy), the round SHOULD perform exactly the same way each time. So, the goal is to make every cartridge EXACTLY the same as every other.

Case weights/lengths/volumes/etc. are all approaches to be able to sort brass so you load cartridges that are identical to each other (in the limit). None of these actually achieve "identity" as even small changes in case dimensions affect pressure gradients/flash vortices/burn kinetics/etc. which COULD change when the bullet leaves the case and the dynamics of that departure.

The two techniques you mention (neck turning and annealing) get used to make the cases "more similar" to each other. There are variations in wall thicknesses between cases and at different points around a single case. Variations may lead to less case deformation at one point of the neck than another during firing, and they COULD affect consistency of how the bullet is released at different points around the case neck. Turning removes thicker parts of the neck so that the brass is the same thickness all the way around the area holding the bullet.

Working the brass causes "hardening" of the metal, which also changes the holding/release characteristics of the neck on the bullet. The process of annealing is intended to return the hardened brass to it's initial, softer state. Ideally, every case will have brass of the same thickness/length/dimensions/hardness/etc. so that every case acts as if it is identical to every other one.

Turning is usually only done once (just like flash hole uniforming). The case neck needs to be concentric in order for the turning blade to leave the neck "perfectly" circular, so sizing and mandrel expanding to make the inside of the case neck "perfectly" circular is generally considered to be the starting point. Then, the turning blade running around the outside of the case neck carves off the high points until the brass is all the same thickness.

Every time you fire and size the case you're introducing changes to the shape/thickness/physicial characteristics of the brass. I don't think "rabbit hole" even begins to describe how crazy this gets. The amount of time/effort/money you invest in making your handloads "identical" is probably dependent only on how rich and how nuts you are, and how precise you actually need your ammo to be. If the precision is your hobby, have at it. If "good enough" is good enough, just decide early on which parts of the insanity you're just not willing to endure. [wink]
Neck turning
How Concentric is the case/neck to begin with. Are you turning down the “thick” spot or the “high” spot.
Now how concentric is your chamber?
Are you you turning necks to the orientation of the case or the fire formed case…
Oh wait how concentric is your die ?
It can get silly. The level of silly
How far do you go….
Hang out with shooters who are already at the level you want to achieve.
 
All 223 bullet weights under 80 grains are magazine bullets and are meant to tolerate jump.
22.8 of 8208 is a bit light. Competitive shooters have pretty much all agreed that 23.2 is a safe max that pushes them fast enough without popping primers.
You WILL be cruching powder: don't worry about it.

SAFETY NOTICE: work up to that load for peace of mind, but that's where you'll end up.
 
If he wants to learn to love the crunch, get some 4320. You can dip a case to fill it to the top and slam a 55gr bullet down on top. Still not an overcharge. Lol. 4320 is a big stick powder and I think you can have something like 27gr under a 55gr proj if I recall.
 
so, it was a frustrating day today. first of all, who knows how but bergara`s bolt broke off extractor. insane shit, i will need to deal with it. so no 6.5CM work at all.
in .223 - the processed and sorted brass improved max spread and SD quite a bit, i was having like 43fps ES and SD in 12fps in some of best samples.
worst sample was ES at 180fps and SD of 50 - i need to check what was there.

groups i did shot today i will talk of later - but i need a sanity check of what happens with the rifle.
before each test i do a set of 10 control shots with match factory ammo to set a baseline, then do the test.
so, today i did a second baseline at the end of the test and it was abysmal. it was a cold day today, no wind. i take pauses between each shot also, so, nothing overheats.
here is how baseline from 69gr match rounds looked like in the beginning - left upper corner is 6 shots, then was 4 more below. single hole at top is first shot and rest of group was aimed at it - it all on the left below 5 shots. i then adjusted scope and shot the center.
a semi-decent group, i would think.
1637782317962.png

so, here is the story at the end of test today, same ammo:
i did more than 3 groups there - i was just astounded to see what i saw, a 5 inch spread almost - but group 1 was typical of what it did do.
then i cleaned it with brass brush and patch and did group 2 - it gets more compact, it can be seen, but nowhere near good.
after some pause and no cleaning i did group 3 - it can be seen how it spreads apart.
cleaned again - no photo of that, but essentially i can see that it kinda recovers accuracy after a cleaning a bit, but then it is all compete shit.

i then though - damn, may be barrel nut got loose? got home, took it all apart - i cannot move than nut at all, it sits probably on loctite and does not even bulge at 50 lb/ft.

so, what could be concluded here? it was 30 deg outside today, i could touch barrel with hand all the time - it was warm, of course, but nowhere too hot.
i did shot with that rifle quite a bit, of course, but, this is larue stealth, it was supposed to be ok for at least 10k rounds, and i am barely may be 1-2k into it.
WTF?

also, in the beginning i did set scope into the dot. it was hitting fecking dot. in the end - can be seen how whole group went up right and by how much.
so sad. wtf is wrong with it? just heat? or time came to discard the barrel?


1637782540424.png

with all that said - here is the best group i got today:
1637783131685.png

it was 22.8gn of 8208 powder and SMK bullets at 2.260 COL. and it was a powder change, so it means i cleaned the barrel before this group.
so does it mean it only shoots OK for several shots now while whistle clean? wtf, really... :(
 
So, the summary of test is - SMK bullets worked good with :
23.6gn TAC - 2725fps picture #4 below
24.3gn AA2520 2663fps - picture #10
22.8gn 8208 - 2642fps it is #11 picture in post above.

That is what I needed, to get working under 1 moa groups with components I have.

23.2gn 8208 gave worse group than 22.8.

ELD bullet gave 1 good group only with 22.8gn 8208. I returned them all and bought 500 more of SMK.

PS. I am still concerned about the rifle but will keep doing those loads and test them in both ARs I have. Will see.04C9AEC4-93E3-4C9F-B583-610E1D8D8C48.png
6CC74032-6527-4C4F-8312-499D0FD1E60A.png
 
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So, the summary of test is - SMK bullets worked good with :
23.6gn TAC - 2725fps
24.3gn AA2520 2663fps
22.8gn 8208 - 2642fps

That is what I needed, to get working under 1 moa groups with components I have.

23.2gn 8208 gave worse group than 22.8.

ELD bullet gave 1 good group only with 22.8gn 8208. I returned them all and bought 500 more of SMK.

PS. I am still concerned about the rifle but will keep doing those loads and test them in both ARs I have. Will see.
At what range are you measuring groups, and at what range do you want to see the tightest groups? I say this because the tightest group at 100 is not necessarily the tightest group at 600.
I can probably get some 50 gr bullets to group 3/8" at 100, but they won't be within 6moa at 600. A good 80 might not shoot under an inch at 100, but will still shoot moa at 600.
 
At what range are you measuring groups, and at what range do you want to see the tightest groups? I say this because the tightest group at 100 is not necessarily the tightest group at 600.
I can probably get some 50 gr bullets to group 3/8" at 100, but they won't be within 6moa at 600. A good 80 might not shoot under an inch at 100, but will still shoot moa at 600.
Right now all tests are at 100, I will move next to 300.

First I need to sort out what is with the rifle and why groups open up so crazy. It was not doing it before and I cannot see anything wrong so far with the upper. But I suspect I used different batch of match ammo before, those last CMP match boxes can be their reloads.
 
that is ok. :) i know he was prodding.

so, i just got 8208 xbr and loaded ladder of SMK bullets. then tried to load 73gn ELD hornadys and i do not have a good feel about it.
the youtube i saw was suggesting to use 22.8 max load with it - so, at least with cases i have it seems not to fit to normal prescribed 2.250" depth with 22.8gn of powder.
best that works is 2.263" with compression. the max non compressed load with 8208 and 73gn bullet is 22.4gn at 2.260".

i then measured to ogive sierras, and it seems that even at 2.260" instead of prescribed 2.250" the hornady sits 0.060" or so deeper than SMK.
as you cannot really fit anything longer than 2.260" into the magazine it seems to be placing those hornady bullets into quite a disadvantage, as it seems to be doing a 0.182" jump with COL of 2.260. that makes a 2.250 COL to jump for .190"+.

does it seem as a bit too much? SMK jump to lands at stock 2.260" COL is 0.130".
read a while back about .223 chambers and remember reading about the Wylde chamber.
The designer said something to the likes when asked about the "longer lead/throat"
Those 223 bullets love to jump.
 
so, it was a frustrating day today. first of all, who knows how but bergara`s bolt broke off extractor. insane shit, i will need to deal with it. so no 6.5CM work at all.
in .223 - the processed and sorted brass improved max spread and SD quite a bit, i was having like 43fps ES and SD in 12fps in some of best samples.
worst sample was ES at 180fps and SD of 50 - i need to check what was there.

groups i did shot today i will talk of later - but i need a sanity check of what happens with the rifle.
before each test i do a set of 10 control shots with match factory ammo to set a baseline, then do the test.
so, today i did a second baseline at the end of the test and it was abysmal. it was a cold day today, no wind. i take pauses between each shot also, so, nothing overheats.
here is how baseline from 69gr match rounds looked like in the beginning - left upper corner is 6 shots, then was 4 more below. single hole at top is first shot and rest of group was aimed at it - it all on the left below 5 shots. i then adjusted scope and shot the center.
a semi-decent group, i would think.
View attachment 545478

so, here is the story at the end of test today, same ammo:
i did more than 3 groups there - i was just astounded to see what i saw, a 5 inch spread almost - but group 1 was typical of what it did do.
then i cleaned it with brass brush and patch and did group 2 - it gets more compact, it can be seen, but nowhere near good.
after some pause and no cleaning i did group 3 - it can be seen how it spreads apart.
cleaned again - no photo of that, but essentially i can see that it kinda recovers accuracy after a cleaning a bit, but then it is all compete shit.

i then though - damn, may be barrel nut got loose? got home, took it all apart - i cannot move than nut at all, it sits probably on loctite and does not even bulge at 50 lb/ft.

so, what could be concluded here? it was 30 deg outside today, i could touch barrel with hand all the time - it was warm, of course, but nowhere too hot.
i did shot with that rifle quite a bit, of course, but, this is larue stealth, it was supposed to be ok for at least 10k rounds, and i am barely may be 1-2k into it.
WTF?

also, in the beginning i did set scope into the dot. it was hitting fecking dot. in the end - can be seen how whole group went up right and by how much.
so sad. wtf is wrong with it? just heat? or time came to discard the barrel?


View attachment 545479

with all that said - here is the best group i got today:
View attachment 545480

it was 22.8gn of 8208 powder and SMK bullets at 2.260 COL. and it was a powder change, so it means i cleaned the barrel before this group.
so does it mean it only shoots OK for several shots now while whistle clean? wtf, really... :(

Im not a pro but maybe a few things.
1. Pick a target style and use only that target style
2. Do not adjust your scope. Re torque your rings and mount and as long as your impacts are "close" to your aim point .....leave it alone. Your shooting for groups
3. Maybe im missing it BUT it seems like your shot testing method changes each trip.

For example you started with 10 rounds of A ammo then shot groups of B,CD ammo then cleaned for groups E,F ?
Do some round round robin testing.
Say 5 test loads 3-5 shots each.
5 aiming points
Shoot 1 shot of each test load at each target then rotate through remaining shots
Same time between shots.
IDK , I read your post and it seems like "to much to fast" and all over the place.

Oh and i believe Pat( apology if not) gave me this advice some years ago.
Dont test different bullets in the same testing batch.
i was frustrated that a "known" good load was "falling apart" on me . After some testing of a "new bullet" i did zero check on my "known good rounds" and was dismal....
Pat picked u p on this and said
Something like this
Clean your bore and throat and try again.
Sure enough cleaned it up and after a few "fouling" shots the known good load fell right back into place and scope was on zero .
That rifle 223/wylde 20" heavy 1 /8 will go 500 rounds with out needing a deep cleaning if I push it 500 plus i will start to have flyers.
Since then I,have settled on nozler 77s , for "service" rifle and recently been shooting cmp games with 69s and if I can deliver its a 1moa or less load. Problem is my best groups tend to be in the “wrong” score ring. Now i dont get to crazy im shooting at a 3 moa 10 ring with irons---- last out it was 287/7x or 285/4x i shot the M1a also. Just forget which score was shot with what.
 
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I agree that you definitely should mentally and data segregate diff bullets.
Agree with both posts/points above.
Like anything else in life it is a work in progress and it moves along, may be slower than anticipated, but, steady enough.
 
Im not a pro but maybe a few things.
1. Pick a target style and use only that target style
2. Do not adjust your scope. Re torque your rings and mount and as long as your impacts are "close" to your aim point .....leave it alone.
3. Maybe im missing it BUT it seems like your shot testing method changes each trip.

For example you started with 10 rounds of A ammo then shot groups of B,CD ammo then cleaned for groups E,F ?
Do some round round robin testing.
Say 5 test loads 3-5 shots each.
5 aiming points
Shoot 1 shot of each test load at each target then rotate through remaining shots
Same time between shots.
IDK , I read your post and it seems like "to much to fast" and all over the place.

Oh and i believe Pat( apology if not) gave me this advice some years ago.
Dont test different bullets in the same testing batch.
i was frustrated that a "known" good load was "falling apart" on me . After some testing of a "new bullet" i did zero check on my "known good rounds" and was dismal....
Pat picked u p on this and said
Something like this
Clean your bore and throat and try again.
Sure enough cleaned it up and after a few "fouling" shots the known good load fell right back into place and scope was on zero .
That rifle 223/wylde 20" heavy 1 /8 will go 500 rounds with out needing a deep cleaning if I push it 500 plus i will start to have flyers.
Since then I,have settled on nozler 77s , for "service" rifle and recently been shooting cmp games with 69s and if I can deliver its a 1moa or less load. Now i dont get to crazy im shooting at a 3 moa 10 ring with irons---- last out it was 287/7x or 285/4x i shot the M1a also. Just forget which score was shot with what.
The reason for that is that the jacket materials from different brand bullets sometimes take a long time to overlay the gilding from last batch before they will show their best.
Sometimes it doesn't make a difference at all. I shoot Nosler 77's and then Bergers right after them with no problem.

And then some powders don't play well with others.

Its a never-ending hole if you let it become that.
 
The reason for that is that the jacket materials from different brand bullets sometimes take a long time to overlay the gilding from last batch before they will show their best.
Sometimes it doesn't make a difference at all. I shoot Nosler 77's and then Bergers right after them with no problem.

And then some powders don't play well with others.

Its a never-ending hole if you let it become that.
Well if it was you then thank you for that it helped if not thank you again
Its funny how things work or dont
I have a shit ton of the 55 fmj from hornady bought when you can buy them 6k to a box for a nickel each. Those do darn well in my beater AR no matter the powder and minimum barrel “care”.
24 grains of something in the AR family of powders it will shoot as well as you can
Currently i use surplus 846 powder for those plinkers. If I put it on a rest they will do moa .
My friend runs the same bullet and load on his old 223 rifle with 1/12 twist and get under 1” often. Although we tend to shoot at anything and everything with those plinkers vs shooting small groups.
Some day O might have time to set up and do some more better testing. Right now if I find time to shoot its either a “match” of some type or just fun plinking.

My next fun project is to load some light 223 that will just function enough in a 200 yard match for fun.
I do this often and its probably hurt my scores but I do like to play around with “unconventional” loadings
Like my 308 loads for my 308 mauser
135 gn TNT 15 grains trail boss 100-200 yard paper puncher.
Recoil is like a 20lb 32cal pistol.
 
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The reason for that is that the jacket materials from different brand bullets sometimes take a long time to overlay the gilding from last batch before they will show their best.
Sometimes it doesn't make a difference at all. I shoot Nosler 77's and then Bergers right after them with no problem.

And then some powders don't play well with others.

Its a never-ending hole if you let it become that.
Not long after that recommendation
I was up Reading Rifle and was chatting Maureen/charlie Trickket said to me , load 75-77 to mag length run them on the hot side when your “loosing” because of X count you can move forward…. Then this tid bit is stuck in my head.
You will loose more points to missed wind calls than powder drops. Im not sure if that was maureen or one of the others talking around the club house.
I hope to get to reading next year its been several years since I did a straight up service rifle XTC. Last time up was 2018 for a 600 yard any rifle and sight. I did not do well
 
Not long after that recommendation
I was up Reading Rifle and was chatting Maureen/charlie Trickket said to me , load 75-77 to mag length run them on the hot side when your “loosing” because of X count you can move forward…. Then this tid bit is stuck in my head.
You will loose more points to missed wind calls than powder drops. Im not sure if that was maureen or one of the others talking around the club house.
I hope to get to reading next year its been several years since I did a straight up service rifle XTC. Last time up was 2018 for a 600 yard any rifle and sight. I did not do well
If I'm reading you correctly, the Tricketts are saying the 80-82's take wind better, but the 77's are generally a more accurate bullet. Meaning, a good wind reader may score higher with the lighter bullets. I 100% agree with that. Especially here in New England where we rarely ever see more than 2 minutes of wind.
I know several High Masters who run mag-length 77's all the way.
 
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