I feel dumb....antenna install questions

[blindfire]

Ok, so an Elmer built me an 80m OCF dipole a few weeks ago.

It is now up to me to install the silly thing. The issue I just cannot wrap my head around is the order of operations.

He builds his antennas out of 14 gauge THHN wire, a 4:1 current ballun and 4 insulators (2 on each side that are not locked into place by knots or anything.

I've picked two potential trees to be the anchor points.

I've lined up a tree service to come in and take down some trees on my land that are dead/dying. During the meetup with the guy, I asked if he'd be willing to install the pulleys on the trees and help string the antenna.

He said, "You are paying me for a full day's labor around your property. Tell me what you want and I'll do it. Even dishes."

So, how do I hang the antenna?

I've got 500 ft of black dacron 3/16" rope. I'll have 4 pulleys (I already have 2...do I need 2 more?)

What order, step by step, do I follow to raise the antenna?

Do I lay out the antenna and run the rope through all for insulators to hang the antenna and then give the ends to the tree guy and have him loop them into the pulleys? Is there an easier way?

How can I keep the antenna from sliding up and down the length of the rope? Should I put a knot on either side of the insulators?

I feel stupid for having to ask, but I'm not a mechanically inclined person as you can probably tell.

Thanks for any and all advice.

 

[namedpipes]

Ok, so an Elmer built me an 80m OCF dipole a few weeks ago.

It is now up to me to install the silly thing. The issue I just cannot wrap my head around is the order of operations.

He builds his antennas out of 14 gauge THHN wire, a 4:1 current ballun and 4 insulators (2 on each side that are not locked into place by knots or anything.

I've picked two potential trees to be the anchor points.

I've lined up a tree service to come in and take down some trees on my land that are dead/dying. During the meetup with the guy, I asked if he'd be willing to install the pulleys on the trees and help string the antenna.

He said, "You are paying me for a full day's labor around your property. Tell me what you want and I'll do it. Even dishes."

So, how do I hang the antenna?

I've got 500 ft of black dacron 3/16" rope. I'll have 4 pulleys (I already have 2...do I need 2 more?)

What order, step by step, do I follow to raise the antenna?

Do I lay out the antenna and run the rope through all for insulators to hang the antenna and then give the ends to the tree guy and have him loop them into the pulleys? Is there an easier way?

How can I keep the antenna from sliding up and down the length of the rope? Should I put a knot on either side of the insulators?

I feel stupid for having to ask, but I'm not a mechanically inclined person as you can probably tell.

Thanks for any and all advice.

Do you have a quad copter / drone?



Cut the rope to reach from A to B to C.

Bind the antenna to the rope at H, G, F and E such that it will be placed between the trees when lifted.

Attach the H end of the rope to the eye bolt on the right hand tree, then string the free end of the rope through pulley B and pull tight. If you did the math right the antenna will be strung halfway between the trees.

Tie the C end to a rock or bush. Do NOT tie to a car bumper. Don't ask.

D is your radio, conveniently located in the middle of your backyard. Although you could also run the coax inside the house.

Anyway that would be one approach. Although the drone would be more fun.

 

[blindfire]

You KNOW I have to ask about the car bumper comment!

Thanks for the diagram and steps.

 

[AHM]

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View attachment 167435

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Very helpful art.

I'm particularly impressed with paralleling the horizontal elements with a horizontal line to provide intermediate support. Maybe that's very common, but other than a high line to hold the balun's upper screw eye, I don't think I've seen it proposed elsewhere.

However while I haven't done it myself (yet), I disagree about several design features.

You don't want line end A tied to a screw eye up in the RH tree. That's not maintainable - when the guy rope eventually breaks from UV or friction damage, you have no way to tie on a new one besides hiring a guy with a cherry picker (or climbing spikes) again, for more than the antenna is worth.

You might run the guy line through the screw eye down to the ground, if the inside of the screw eye is smooth and not jagged from forming, or galvanizing. Then if you have lots of line you can lower the end of the antenna to the ground periodically to replace the guy line (because it will UV degrade and chafe on the screw eye), and at worst the pulley too..

Similarly, you at least have to consider whether you want the simplicity of fastening the pulley at B directly to its screw eye aloft, or the maintainability (and complexity) of running a line from ground level, through the screw eye, and then tied to the pulley swivel. It may not be worth it, but make the decision deliberately.

I'd try and get quality screw eyes with extra long shanks, so that if the branch diameter increases significantly over the life of the antenna, the wood doesn't grow over the eye itself.

Don't tie end C to a fixed object - attach it to a weight (rumor has it about a dozen pounds is right - whatever will tension the guy system to keep things not too droopy without being overly taut). Some people use a bleach jug full of sand, so you can adjust the weight with precision. But beware the jug getting brittle with UV and dumping the sand...

I absolutely agree with the base design that one end of the wire antenna should be fixed, and the other have tension applied via a weight. Don't float the antenna between two weights - you will never ever get them to balance. You just need the entire system to not tie two trees firmly together, because when they wave apart in the wind, it will snap the guy (and/or antenna).

Absolutely all guy lines should terminate above reach, so that even an adult needs a short ladder to reach. Otherwise some pudding head is going to tug on it and break a line or untie a knot, bring everything down, and you may not even be able to reach the end of a line that has retreated up into the foliage.

Don't tie any antenna element to a support rope with a mere knot - fasten it to a dog bone insulator that is tied to the rope. When ropes get wet, they conduct, and if tied to the wire antenna, will short or detune the system.

Some pragmatics at RadioWorks: Installing Wire Antennas.

Note that they sell overpriced boat pulleys at even higher prices than overpriced boat stores. They're nice guys, but don't assume they're cutting you a special deal on common hardware items.

Another example: a cheesy clothes line tightener costs four bucks at a hardware store, but it's seven bucks plus shipping when it's a Buckmaster Line-Grip. Give me a freaking break.


Anyhow, 'Pipes, you're welcome to call any or all of this overengineered. And it'd be awesome if you can simplify any of the counterproposals. But if he only gets one cheap shot at placing hardware dozens of feet up in a tree, he doesn't want to fasten anything in a fixed place that may need replacement.

 

[cockpitbob]

Use rocks or bricks for tension. Trees grow and move around a lot. I set the tension so the bricks set on the ground, but if things get windy they may hop up and down a bit. When the trees have a load of snow the wire gets slack since the weight is already on the ground.

I rig the pulley with a halyard line (loop). Once the rope is over a branch I tie both ends to the pulley so it is in a loop. Then I can hoist the pulley up into the tree like raising a flag. Having the pulley on a loop has 2 key features: 1) I can lower the pulley to the ground to thread a different line through it(or add a 2nd pulley a few feet down). 2) I can change the rope from the ground.

I have a weight holding the halyard line tight and a 2nd weight for the antenna's line that goes through the pulley.

This may use a bit more rope than other approaches, but I like its flexibility.

 

[namedpipes]

Both good mods to my sketch.

Using the rope as a suspension line is mainly a function of I couldn't tell how structure the actual antenna wire was, and nylon or cloth route won't interfere with the signal.

Using weights to tension in particular, solves the tree waving issue.

Sent from my chimney using smoke signals

 

[AHM]

... I rig the pulley with a halyard line (loop). Once the rope is over a branch I tie both ends to the pulley so it is in a loop. Then I can hoist the pulley up into the tree like raising a flag. ...

This may use a bit more rope than other approaches, but I like its flexibility.

Nice implementation, sounds good to me.

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Both good mods to my sketch.

Glad the hive mind is refining things.

Using the rope as a suspension line is mainly a function of I couldn't tell how structure the actual antenna wire was, and nylon or cloth route won't interfere with the signal.

Yeah, I've worried about how well my CW160 would support itself without even something pulling up on the balun, and I will see if the parallel suspension guy works.

Using weights to tension in particular, solves the tree waving issue.

And I have indeed heard from people who had their antenna shredded when trees finally waved out of phase in the wind, so it's a real problem.

 

[namedpipes]

Nice implementation, sounds good to me.

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Glad the hive mind is refining things.

I'm sure I read something like it in an article or book. I won't take credit, especially if it goes poorly for Blindfire

 

[blindfire]

I'm sure I read something like it in an article or book. I won't take credit, especially if it goes poorly for Blindfire

LOL...nope...your idea...you own it...and YOU will pay for it if my antenna EVER fails.

I like the halyard idea.

I've got two pulleys. http://www.amazon.com/BQLZR-Swivel-...&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s02

What halyard would you suggest? How would tie my pulley to the tree if I went that route? Lag bolt? Hook?

Thanks!

 

[namedpipes]

LOL...nope...your idea...you own it...and YOU will pay for it if my antenna EVER fails.

I like the halyard idea.

I've got two pulleys. http://www.amazon.com/BQLZR-Swivel-...&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s02

What halyard would you suggest? How would tie my pulley to the tree if I went that route? Lag bolt? Hook?

Thanks!

I kind of like the mods that suggested tying off *one* end at ground level, and hanging a weight at the *other* end close to ground level. Assuming the pulleys never fail you be able to do all the maintenance and even replace the guy wire/rope from the ground.

I think I would use a lag eye-bolt and a caribiner at each end.

http://www.amazon.com/Stanley-Natio...UTF8&qid=1463502738&sr=1-13&keywords=lag+hook

http://www.amazon.com/LeBeila-Carab...UTF8&qid=1463502942&sr=1-6&keywords=caribiner

Not necessarily THESE part numbers, but something like them.

 

[cockpitbob]

Using a sling-shot and fishing reel, my line just goes over whatever random branch. I used to worry about the line wearing through on the branch, but in 4 years that hasn't happened. I do adjust the lines from time to time as the tree grows or the branch stiffens or droops with seasons, so I suppose the line hasn't been wearing in the same spot for 4 years. At about 6' above ground I have an eye bolt in the tree that the lines pass through, then I have a hook in the tree to hang the excess rope.

One of my lines is actually just black 550 para cord. It's getting a little hard, but after 3 years (I think) it's still useable.

 

[Realtor MA]

I have a couple of long wire antennas that have been up for 6 years or so. I've had a break or two along the way but it's easy enough to just shoot another line into the tree.
I've used a kids' compound bow, a lacrosse ball and stick, and a golf ball(swing it around and let it fly), all tied to fishing mono filament(use something you can break if need be) which then becomes the means to pull up the para cord or whatever you're using to hold the antenna. One of my antenna's is some 250' long so I have another line running perpendicular to support the center

 

[AHM]

... it's easy enough to just shoot another line into the tree.
I've used a kids' compound bow, a lacrosse ball and stick, and a golf ball(swing it around and let it fly), all tied to fishing mono filament(use something you can break if need be) which then becomes the means to pull up the para cord or whatever you're using to hold the antenna.

Using a succession of thinner lines to hoist thicker lines has a long enough history - the first bridge over the Niagara River started with a kite string and ended with suspension cables:

The Kite that Bridged a River

One of my antenna's is some 250' long so I have another line running perpendicular to support the center

Nice.