IDPA Defensive Multi Gun

[Knob Creek]

Just got this in a email:

Greetings Members,
We have a very full installment of our e-blast for you. I am sure that you will be discussing this for days to come. The ability to reach out to other members more effectively brings us to the first announcement.

IDPA is very happy to announce the addition of a discussion forum to the IDPA website. This forum has been in existence for several years and hosted by past National Match Director Ted Murphy. Ted's unofficial IDPA forum has consistently been one of the best places to discuss IDPA. After entering into discussions with Ted, we have forged an agreement to add this existing forum to the IDPA website and make it an official part of the IDPA community. You can reach this forum via the IDPA website or www.idpaforum.com. We believe this forum will be of great benefit to our members and guests in exchanging ideas, announcing upcoming local and sanctioned matches as well as discussing rules. This brings us to the second announcement.

We have created an addendum to the IDPA rule book. These rule addendums are an important part in clarifying the rule book and help in keeping IDPA headed in the right direction. Some of what is listed is simple clarifications but there are several rule changes as well. Most of these items will be of real benefit to our members such as increased weight limits for CDP and additions to the inclusive list of permitted modifications. The addendum can be found on the IDPA website or on the new forum. The forum will be a great place to let us know how you feel about this addendum. This rule addendum will go into effect on August 1st.

The last announcement we have for you is also a big one. IDPA is very pleased to announce IDPA Defensive Multi Gun. IDPA was created around the defensive use of a handgun. However, we realize there are a lot of rifles and shotguns placed in closets, trunks, bedsides, etc. as defensive tools as well. In an effort to include the use of these tools, IDPA Defensive Multi Gun (DMG) was created. DMG was not created to replace existing IDPA matches. It is simply another format that clubs can use in addition to their regular IDPA matches. IDPA DMG is a stand alone match format that could be run after regular club matches or on different weekends for an extra challenge and fun. It is designed to be adaptable to the club's capabilities and you can incorporate any combination of pistols, shotguns and rifles.
There are 4 divisions for DMG. There is an iron sight and optic sight division for major caliber rifles and there are iron sight and optic sight divisions for pistol caliber carbines only. We feel that the pistol caliber divisions will bring out a whole new level of challenge and fun to an already exciting format.

These rules are currently provisional. IDPA intends on allowing clubs to look these over and try them out over the course of the next several months. At the end of the year we will make any adjustments that are deemed necessary before finalizing them before the shooting season starts up for next year. The rules can be found at the IDPA website or on the official IDPA forum. We hope that you take the opportunity to give this exciting new sport a try and tell us about it on the IDPA forum.

http://www.idpa.com/

http://idpaforum.yuku.com/topic/6218/t/New-IDPA-Defensive-Multi-Gun-Provisional-Rules.html

 

[jar]

If you put on a match, I'll come shoot it. I'm planning to bring up the possibility of running one at the clubs I SO.

 

[Standby]

Now I need more guns, oh darn. It just goes to prove, sometimes change is GOOD.

 

[Knob Creek]

I'm thinking a Marlin Camp 9 or Camp 45 might work well in the Pistol Cartridge Carbine Class. Or even a Thompson (but heavy).

 

[ChevyGuy91]

I would travel to shoot one of these.

 

[buckhunter]

Funny we were just talking about such a match at the last Harvard Shoot!! This is great look forward to giving it a try!

 

[Cabin Fever]

I got the email too. This is an awesome move by IDPA.

 

[Jose]

Link is dead.

Somewhere I read that IDPA will not allow slings on rifles and carbines.

What a bunch of retards.......

 

[eisenhow]

Link is dead.

Somewhere I read that IDPA will not allow slings on rifles and carbines.

What a bunch of retards.......

I think you are allowed a sling for shooting you're just not allowed to use one to transition on the clock.

Slings and Transitioning
Much thought has gone into the idea of permitting shooters to transition from long gun to
handgun by the use of a sling, and of transitioning from hand gun to long gun by the use of a
sling. We decided not to permit this for two reasons. First, there are safety issues with
handling loaded long guns while slung. Second, we believed that an arms race would ensue
over getting the “right” kind of sling for IDPA DMG gun use. Since the typical Home Defense
scenario will involve the immediate and rapid deployment of the arm, IDPA feels that few
scenarios would exist that would have the time required to for the shooter to loop up into a
“tactical” type sling.

 

[Flyer007]

http://www.idpa.com/Documents/IDPA_DMG_rules_07062010.pdf

pp26 and pp27 cover why they feel that no slings are a "good" thing. They figure that a typical user at home wouldn't have time to "loop up" into a tactical sling. Hence no need for it in comp.


EDIT : Too late I see.....

 

[skol]

And when I'm in a carbine class for 3 days with a hot rifle slung it is a "safety issue"? Makes as much sense as not allowing weapon mounted lights for lowlight stages (grabbing a firearm with a mounted light requires more time then grabbing both firearm and a regular flashlight)?

meh..

 

[M1911]

Makes as much sense as not allowing weapon mounted lights for lowlight stages (grabbing a firearm with a mounted light requires more time then grabbing both firearm and a regular flashlight)?

That's a strawman argument. The IDPA board's reasoning behind the prohibition of a weapon mounted light is to avoid an equipment race. This is explained in the IDPA rule book:

IDPA founders hoped to create a practical shooting discipline that will not turn into an equipment race. Pistol barrel porting does enhance recoil control (granted increased muzzle flash is an unwanted byproduct) and thus could offer a competitive
advantage. If the Board of Directors (BoD) allowed ported barrels, then it would be a “necessary modification” to be competitive, thus increasing the cost of participation substantially.

IDPA realizes that a “ported” Springfield or Para ultra compact does not offer a competitive advantage over a non-ported full size pistol, however, once we open the door, where will it end? The present BoD has discussed this issue at length and has no plans to allow ported barrels for IDPA competition.

While IDPA realizes that lights mounted on guns are very useful for self-defense, we would have the same situation with mounted lights that we do with ported pistols if they were allowed. Mounted lights would become another “necessary modification” to be competitive and that is not the purpose of IDPA. Also, the mounting of weapons lights under the stress of competition imposes a dangerous safety hazard.

Full text is in the rule book: http://www.idpa.com/Documents/IDPARuleBook2005.pdf

I have no problem with someone disagreeing with IDPA rules. They aren't commandments from the mount. But if you are going to criticize the reasoning behind the rules, then you should actually criticize their reasoning, instead of making !@#$@! up.

 

[Jose]

IDPA's rulings about what will/can happen in defensive scenarios are ridiculous.

1) It takes but a few seconds to throw a two point sling on. They cost less than $60. Their "realism" and equipment race arguments are bullshit.

2) I can somewhat see the safety aspect of letting a rifle hang off a sling while transitioning to a pistol. That is a skill that the majority of mouth breathers out there have not been trained on.

 

[buckhunter]

Hey Jose,

You got so many issues with IDPA ruling why not vent your comments directly to IDPA maybe they might rethink some of the rules! This being a new type of match for IDPA they had to start somewhere but they are always open to suggestions from members. I do take offense to refering to them as "retards"!!! I have worked with those challenged individuals in the past and your comments are uncalled for! Get a life!!

 

[ScottS]

In fairness, I've never shot at a USPSA 3-gun where anyone used a sling. Maybe they do, but I just haven't seen it. You always had to ground your rifle/shotgun in a specified location before transitioning to the next weapon. Slings are more of a player in tactical training than in competition, in my experience.

 

[Jose]

Hey Jose,

You got so many issues with IDPA ruling why not vent your comments directly to IDPA maybe they might rethink some of the rules! This being a new type of match for IDPA they had to start somewhere but they are always open to suggestions from members. I do take offense to refering to them as "retards"!!! I have worked with those challenged individuals in the past and your comments are uncalled for! Get a life!!

IDPA listens to nobody when it comes to rulemaking. Members have zero input. BTDT.

As to your other comments, IDGAS.

 

[TheRoland]

IDPA's rulings about what will/can happen in defensive scenarios are ridiculous.

1) It takes but a few seconds to throw a two point sling on. They cost less than $60. Their "realism" and equipment race arguments are bullshit.

I agree. I know many people that have a two-point sling on their defensive rifle. I don't, because I'm not educated in shooting well with a sling, but many do. If they are concerned that people, in a real scenario, not having time to get into their sling, make them sling on the clock. Problem solved. This might lead to a some actual innovation and knowledge-building on what is and isn't good to have on a defensive carbine (which I thought is supposed to be the point of IDPA).

Lights

A mounted light is a "necessary modification", not in the game, but in reality. It should be allowed in any serious simulation of defensive carbine use. I'm tempted to say I don't see any point in a defensive carbine without a light, but that might be too extreme.


EDIT: I think it's clear this is just another long-gun-game, and even less about defensive situations than regular IDPA. Thumbs down.

 

[ScottS]

I agree. I know many people that have a two-point sling on their defensive rifle. I don't, because I'm not educated in shooting well with a sling, but many do. If they are concerned that people, in a real scenario, not having time to get into their sling, make them sling on the clock. Problem solved. This might lead to a some actual innovation and knowledge-building on what is and isn't good to have on a defensive carbine (which I thought is supposed to be the point of IDPA).



A mounted light is a "necessary modification", not in the game, but in reality. It should be allowed in any serious simulation of defensive carbine use. I'm tempted to say I don't see any point in a defensive carbine without a light, but that might be too extreme.


EDIT: I think it's clear this is just another long-gun-game, and even less about defensive situations than regular IDPA. Thumbs down.

IDPA is a "short-gun-game." Why shouldn't IDPA Defensive Multi-gun be a "long-gun-game?" I'm thoroughly confused.

 

[M1911]

A mounted light is a "necessary modification", not in the game, but in reality. It should be allowed in any serious simulation of defensive carbine use. I'm tempted to say I don't see any point in a defensive carbine without a light, but that might be too extreme.

Almost all the long gun stages will be outside, during the day, as very few clubs have indoor ranges that can handle rifle cartridges. So you simply wouldn't need a light on your carbine for such competitions. Personally, I think learning to shoot quickly and accurately with a carbine during such competitions would be helpful in a defensive situation.

As for lights on pistols in IDPA, the concept of IDPA is to have a low barrier to entry. That is, Joe Random Gunowner should be able to go to a gunshop in Friday, but a service pistol, an extra mag or two, a holster and mag holders, and be all set for equipment. And it should be the equipment that he'll normally be carrying concealed.
There are very few holsters for handguns with mounted lights, and even fewer that are concealable (Raven is the only one that comes to mind). Furthermore, that such lights are relatively hard to get (you won't find them in most gun stores) and expensive -- typically over $200. You can disagree with their logic on this, but their reasoning is consistent.

 

[jar]

EDIT: I think it's clear this is just another long-gun-game, and even less about defensive situations than regular IDPA. Thumbs down.

As I said in another thread, if there's a guy with a timer and scoresheets, it's a game. IDPA provides a different set of challenges than other gun games. That, and the excellent community of shooters are why I shoot it. IDPA multigun shares one of the advantages of IDPA, namely low barrier to entry. You can put together a competitive setup for SSG for under $1300. ($500 glock/m&p/etc, $150 worth of holsters/carriers, $250 mossberg 500, $600 basic AR) Also those are guns that pretty much everyone has one or more of already. If you buy used, you can get that down even further.

 

[Pyano]

From the Connecticut Shooters site. http://www.matchreg.com/

2010 Connecticut Sport Shooters 3 Gun Match
for the benefit of the U.S. Coast Guard Academy Combat Arms Team
October 23 & 24 at the Hartford Gun Club (info to follow)

 

[M1911]

IDPA multigun shares one of the advantages of IDPA, namely low barrier to entry.

A lot of folks seem to have a hard time understanding this. Part of the motivation for IDPA is to keep the costs down and prevent it from turning into an equipment race.

 

[jar]

From the Connecticut Shooters site. http://www.matchreg.com/

2010 Connecticut Sport Shooters 3 Gun Match
for the benefit of the U.S. Coast Guard Academy Combat Arms Team
October 23 & 24 at the Hartford Gun Club (info to follow)

I put this on my calendar. Do you know what rules they use?

 

[TheRoland]

IDPA is a "short-gun-game." Why shouldn't IDPA Defensive Multi-gun be a "long-gun-game?" I'm thoroughly confused.

I'm not arguing that IDPA isn't a game. I'm saying that if IDPA is 'X' away from reality, then these multi-gun rules are 'X+1' or greater away from reality, which isn't a step a like. I'd rather it allow slings, lights, and all the things people have in reality be allowed. It would still be a game, but one with slings and lights.

As I said in another thread, if there's a guy with a timer and scoresheets, it's a game.

Sure, but games can be more or less relevant to reality. IDPA is more relevant that silhouette, for example. I think these rules are "less".

A lot of folks seem to have a hard time understanding this. Part of the motivation for IDPA is to keep the costs down and prevent it from turning into an equipment race.

Yes, and that's all well and good (see their pistol-caliber carbine category, for example) but some equipment is just better than others, and IDPA shouldn't pretend it isn't. For example, magazine fed shotguns seem to be banned in muti-gun (I think?). I presume it's because they'd win, and that's a BS rule, even though I don't own one. That's like banning M&P45s because they've started to beat 1911s in CDP.

 

[M1911]

Yes, and that's all well and good (see their pistol-caliber carbine category, for example) but some equipment is just better than others, and IDPA shouldn't pretend it isn't.

You're missing the point completely.

For example, magazine fed shotguns seem to be banned in muti-gun (I think?). I presume it's because they'd win, and that's a BS rule, even though I don't own one. That's like banning M&P45s because they've started to beat 1911s in CDP.

Once again, they are trying to keep costs down to prevent it from turning into an equipment race.

Are red-dot sights faster than iron sights? Sure they are. That's why IPSC unlimited shooters all use them. And if IDPA allowed them, then red-dot sights would be a must-have in order to win. The same is true for all the stuff you want to use.

If you want a gun game where you can use all your way cool, high speed, low-drag gun widgets, there is a place to do that. It is called IPSC.

If you want a gun game where you can compete cheaply, there is a place to do that. It is called IDPA.

If you want a place to whine about gun games, there's a place to do that -- the interwebs

 

[TheRoland]

Are red-dot sights faster than iron sights? Sure they are. That's why IPSC unlimited shooters all use them. And if IDPA allowed them, then red-dot sights would be a must-have in order to win.

See, that's not how I see it at all. It shouldn't be about what's cheap, it should be about what's a reasonable defensive setups. That's why the game is called IDPA and not El-cheapo-USPSA Production.

So the question should be "Are red dots reasonable and common sights on defensive handguns?" Right now, that's clearly no. I think that 20 or 30 years in the future the answer may be "yes" (there are now tiny red-dots that co-witness with iron sights, for example), and if/when you can find a good amount of people using red-dots for CCW, I'd expect IDPA to change the rules.

With carbines, the question "Are slings/lights reasonable and common attachments on defensive carbines" is, I submit, answered clearly yes. The question "are magazine-fed shotguns reasonable and common defensive shotguns" should be answered likewise (unless they're really uncommon, but I see Saigas all the time).

I disagree with the premise that IDPA rules should be meant to keep things cheap, although that's a nice-to-have. They should be to keep things within 'X' of defensive.

And when I'm chairman of the board, my opinion on should will matter.

 

[M1911]

See, that's not how I see it at all. It shouldn't be about what's cheap, it should be about what's a reasonable defensive setups. That's why the game is called IDPA and not El-cheapo-USPSA Production.

You're completely missing the point.

With carbines, the question "Are slings/lights reasonable and common attachments on defensive carbines" is, I submit, answered clearly yes.

Once again, in IDPA you won't be using your carbine in a low-light stage. You don't need it for IDPA, period.

The question "are magazine-fed shotguns reasonable and common defensive shotguns" should be answered likewise (unless they're really uncommon, but I see Saigas all the time).

So then Saigas would completely dominate, even though they are less than 5% of the market. If any one gun completely dominates a certain class, then you've got a broken competition.

I disagree with the premise that IDPA rules should be meant to keep things cheap, although that's a nice-to-have.

Then you don't understand the point of IDPA or where it came from.

How much does it cost to buy a competitive gun for IPSC unlimited? $3000? That's what IDPA is trying to prevent. At one time, IPSC started with average guns. Before too long, however, it turned into an equipment race and if you want to be competitive in IPSC unlimited, you need one of these:

How many folks are carrying something like that or have something like that in your safe?

IDPA wants your average gun owner to be able afford to compete, and not to have to spend $3000 buying one of these two guns and add those twelve widgets in order to be competitive.

If you want to be able to use anything you want on your gun, you can do that -- IPSC unlimited is awaiting your entry.

 

[TheRoland]

If you want to be able to use anything you want on your gun, you can do that -- IPSC unlimited is awaiting your entry.

I wrote out a whole reply, but the bottom line is this: I don't want to be able to use anything I want on my gun. I want to be able to use the things I, and many (most?) others, already have on their guns: A small length of webbing, and a friggen flashlight. I understand it's not dark out, but there's a friggen flashlight on many, many defensive carbines, and I'd very much like to just leave it.

Totally separately, I don't like the use of "because it would win all the time" as a reason to ban magazine-fed shotguns. If they're so good, maybe tube-fed shotguns are just antiquated and inferior which should be replaced for defensive use; I don't know, I don't know much about shotguns.


EDIT: Some research indicates mag-fed shotguns tend to be tricked-out and only appear in Open/Unlimited type of matches.

I guess my point is that when many people have an off the shelf mag-fed shotgun for defensive purposes, it should be allowed. Likewise, I think many already have a sling and a mounted light for defensive purposes, and likewise it should be allowed.

EDIT2: If I grab the average defensive handgun, I can use it in IDPA. If I grab the average defensive carbine, there's a very good chance I have to take things off before I can use it.

EDIT3: But this is moot; how I'd design it doesn't really matter. As you say, it's the internet!

 

[M1911]

You want to be able to use a, b, and c. J. Random Gunner wants to be able to use d, e, and f. I want to be able to use g, h, and I, ad nauseum. Rules are someone's judgment. You won't always agree with them.

 

[Supermoto]

You're completely missing the point.


Once again, in IDPA you won't be using your carbine in a low-light stage. You don't need it for IDPA, period.


So then Saigas would completely dominate, even though they are less than 5% of the market. If any one gun completely dominates a certain class, then you've got a broken competition.


Then you don't understand the point of IDPA or where it came from.

How much does it cost to buy a competitive gun for IPSC unlimited? $3000? That's what IDPA is trying to prevent. At one time, IPSC started with average guns. Before too long, however, it turned into an equipment race and if you want to be competitive in IPSC unlimited, you need one of these:

How many folks are carrying something like that or have something like that in your safe?

IDPA wants your average gun owner to be able afford to compete, and not to have to spend $3000 buying one of these two guns and add those twelve widgets in order to be competitive.

If you want to be able to use anything you want on your gun, you can do that -- IPSC unlimited is awaiting your entry.

That airsoft gun is not going to be competitive in USPSA Open division. And if you know where I can get a Competitive Open gun new for $3000 please let me know

Also there is no equipment race in USPSA, SS, Production, L-10, limited, revolver can all be won with bone stock guns that are also IDPA legal.

Can someone explain how a sling will allow you to shoot and move faster than without one and the short close stages of fire? I can see the need for distance shots, transitions to handguns. but not the up close stuff.