IDPA Defensive Multi Gun

[Steve_P]

You're completely missing the point.


Once again, in IDPA you won't be using your carbine in a low-light stage. You don't need it for IDPA, period.


So then Saigas would completely dominate, even though they are less than 5% of the market. If any one gun completely dominates a certain class, then you've got a broken competition.


Then you don't understand the point of IDPA or where it came from.

How much does it cost to buy a competitive gun for IPSC unlimited? $3000? That's what IDPA is trying to prevent. At one time, IPSC started with average guns. Before too long, however, it turned into an equipment race and if you want to be competitive in IPSC unlimited, you need one of these:

How many folks are carrying something like that or have something like that in your safe?

IDPA wants your average gun owner to be able afford to compete, and not to have to spend $3000 buying one of these two guns and add those twelve widgets in order to be competitive.

If you want to be able to use anything you want on your gun, you can do that -- IPSC unlimited is awaiting your entry.

Like Supermofo said, you don't need the open gun to be competitive in USPSA. I shoot the same gun and rig in IDPA as I do in Production division (well, slightly different holster in USPSA...but everything else is the same). Same with most other shooters who cross over between sports.

If you want to lay down the coin to play with the loud guns in open...go for it (it's addictive ), but it's not a requirement.

 

[M1911]

That airsoft gun is not going to be competitive in USPSA Open division.

Doh! I googled race gun and grabbed the first picture I found, without looking at it carefully.

And if you know where I can get a Competitive Open gun new for $3000 please let me know

Shows how much I know about Open guns. How much do they run these days?

Also there is no equipment race in USPSA, SS, Production, L-10, limited, revolver can all be won with bone stock guns that are also IDPA legal.

Yes. All of which have rules about which go-fast features you can have on the gun, just like IDPA. And I'm sure that there are some folks that want features a, b, and c, in class 1, versus those that want features d, e, and f, in class 2, etc. Same !@!@$ different game. Q.E.D.

Can someone explain how a sling will allow you to shoot and move faster than without one and the short close stages of fire? I can see the need for distance shots, transitions to handguns. but not the up close stuff.

If you figure that out, then explain to me why someone wants a flashlight on his rifle during a daylight stage outdoors.

 

[Supermoto]

Shows how much I know about Open guns. How much do they run these days?

About $3.5K-5K without mags for a new one. You weren't all the far off.

Yes. All of which have rules about which go-fast features you can have on the gun, just like IDPA. And I'm sure that there are some folks that want features a, b, and c, in class 1, versus those that want features d, e, and f, in class 2, etc. Same !@!@$ different game. Q.E.D.

Yep.

If you figure that out, then explain to me why someone wants a flashlight on his rifle during a daylight stage outdoors.

I don't see the benefit of having a light on a rifle for match purposes, but since lights affect how you control the rifle, I can see why people that use matches for extra trigger time would want to keep the same habits. But I suspect that most people want to keep the lights on because they think it makes them more tacticool

 

[TheRoland]

I don't see the benefit of having a light on a rifle for match purposes, but since lights affect how you control the rifle, I can see why people that use matches for extra trigger time would want to keep the same habits. But I suspect that most people want to keep the lights on because they think it makes them more tacticool

Maybe a little from column A, a little from column B?

I just would like a ruleset that bills itself as "defensive Multi-Gun" to allow for two features found on a great number of defensive (multi) guns. I don't think that's an unreasonable position to take. If you want to argue that most people don't have lights or slings on the gun in the closet, fine.


I know I'm just saying that feature A, B, and C should be allowed, but it's the internet, damn it! Someone is wrong on the internet! I must convince them!

 

[Dan S]

Maybe a little from column A, a little from column B?

I just would like a ruleset that bills itself as "defensive Multi-Gun" to allow for two features found on a great number of defensive (multi) guns. I don't think that's an unreasonable position to take. If you want to argue that most people don't have lights or slings on the gun in the closet, fine.


I know I'm just saying that feature A, B, and C should be allowed, but it's the internet, damn it! Someone is wrong on the internet! I must convince them!

The solution is simple. Run your own Multigun or 3 gun match. (There is a difference) Your match, your rules! All the matches that have waiting lists are not sanctioned by any organization, i.e. USPSA. These are matches with over 200 competitors for the most part. Some are "pit" matches....others are "natural terrain".

 

[Lugnut]

If IDPA is all about keeping costs down so there is no equipment race, why the hell are they doing three gun now? I think getting a shotgun and a rifle are much more costly that running a flashlight on my Glock. Oh wait. I already have one of each.

Somehow I missed this thread and wasn't surprised to see Supermoto posting... although he was quite civil.... while at the same time pushing the drug.

 

[TheRoland]

Somehow I missed this thread and wasn't surprised to see Supermoto posting... although he was quite civil.... while at the same time pushing the drug.

They've got WeedWacker, now. It's only a matter of time before the rest of us give in.

 

[eisenhow]

They've got WeedWacker, now. It's only a matter of time before the rest of us give in.

They got Aaron? They've already got Jar signing up for their indoctrination program.

For the record, I've got nothing against USPSA. If I didn't have a standing conflict the 2nd Sunday of the month I'd give it a try at Harvard.

 

[jar]

They've got WeedWacker, now. It's only a matter of time before the rest of us give in.

Try it, you'll like it. It's freeing to reload wherever the hell you want and shoot the targets in whatever order you damn well please. Also it's nice that the walkthroughs take 30 seconds (followed by 5 minutes for everyone to walk through on your own). Seriously, 5 of the six stages had the following walkthrough:

RO: Start in box A, gun loaded and holstered, hands relaxed at sides. Shoot them as you see them.
Competitor: Is the box part of the free fire zone?
RO: Yes.

That's it, no can I do this, can I do that.

 

[TheRoland]

That's it, no can I do this, can I do that.

I don't think I can afford the round-counts, but it does sound like it might be worth a try...

I'd also like to propose a new internet law: as a competition thread on NES progresses, the probability of it turning into a IDPA/USPSA thread approaches 1.

 

[jar]

I don't think I can afford the round-counts, but it does sound like it might be worth a try...

I'd also like to propose a new internet law: as a competition thread on NES progresses, the probability of it turning into a IDPA/USPSA thread approaches 1.

Harvard yesterday was 137 rounds minimum. That's really not that much more than an IDPA match. (Harvard's June match was 99 rounds min).

It turning into IDPA/USPSA wasn't even SuperMofo's fault this time! I shoot and enjoy both. They each have their pluses and minuses, but they're more alike than they are different.

 

[skol]

That's a strawman argument. The IDPA board's reasoning behind the prohibition of a weapon mounted light is to avoid an equipment race. This is explained in the IDPA rule book:



Full text is in the rule book: http://www.idpa.com/Documents/IDPARuleBook2005.pdf

I have no problem with someone disagreeing with IDPA rules. They aren't commandments from the mount. But if you are going to criticize the reasoning behind the rules, then you should actually criticize their reasoning, instead of making !@#$@! up.

Meh, just like 5 inch long G34's and barely power factor ammo aren't a "necessary" modification?

I just flat out disagree with their reasons behind the safety part. They do make holsters which carry the firearm with the light attached. Also who removes the light, ever?

I can live without the rifle sling, as others said in 3gun/multigun no one runs a sling and you always dump the firearm in a dump bucket/tray anyways.

 

[buckhunter]

Oh now I get it, total waste of time dealing with the likes of you! It's a free country well used to be anyways! Good Luck and by the way even though we differ on opinion Thanks for your Service to the country!!

 

[dwarven1]

*cautiously peeks into thread*

Without trying to get into the holy war here about IPSC/IDPA/USPSA, all I have to say is that adding the carbines sounds like it'll be fun. I'd be willing to bet that this will increase sales of stuff like the Keltec Sub2000 - they're pretty short money to get into the fun with.

 

[skol]

Jar, last year they did IDPA rules. I had a blast last year and will go every year!

 

[jar]

What I'm wondering about is the decision to put 30 carbine in with the pistol caliber carbines.
M193 is 55gr at 3165fps for a power factor of 174075
30 carbine is 110gr at 1990fps for a power factor of 218900

 

[Dan S]

What I'm wondering about is the decision to put 30 carbine in with the pistol caliber carbines.
M193 is 55gr at 3165fps for a power factor of 174075
30 carbine is 110gr at 1990fps for a power factor of 218900

It may have to do if target distances go long. The power factor has nothing to do with long range performance. A .44 mag has a much higher power factor than a .223.....but try hitting a target at 300 yards with it.

 

[TheRoland]

I'd be willing to bet that this will increase sales of stuff like the Keltec Sub2000 - they're pretty short money to get into the fun with.

Yes; all my disappointment aside, they may have sold me a pistol-caliber carbine, ironically, just for gun-gaming.

What I'm wondering about is the decision to put 30 carbine in with the pistol caliber carbines.
M193 is 55gr at 3165fps for a power factor of 174075
30 carbine is 110gr at 1990fps for a power factor of 218900

My suspicion is that this is because of Bill Wilson's gut feeling that the 30 carbine's kinetic energy (considerably less than .223, no?) isn't really in the 'rifle' category. So-called 'power factor' may not be a fair measure.

 

[dwarven1]

A .44 mag has a much higher power factor than a .223.....but try hitting a target at 300 yards with it.

I can't - they don't allow pistol calibers on the 300 yard range at Harvard. I'd try it otherwise.

 

[TY43215]

You're missing the point completely.

If you want a gun game where you can use all your way cool, high speed, low-drag gun widgets, there is a place to do that. It is called IPSC.

If you want a gun game where you can compete cheaply, there is a place to do that. It is called IDPA.

Actually, I think you missed the point. Any Sunday of the month, I can take a Sig 226 with carry 357SIG ammo and compete in USPSA Production Division. If I change the barrel on the same gun to 40S&W, I can shoot Production or Limited 10. If I lived in a free state and bought 15 round mags, I could compete in Limited Division. If there was no USPSA match and I found an IDPA match, I could use the same gear with less mags on my belt and shoot SSP.

These games are very similar. Production and Single stack divisions in USPSA are SSP and CDP in USPSA. That was done to allow more cross over. IDPA is now going to Multi gun for the same reason and it will be interesting to see if it takes off.

As for IDPA trying to keep this a place for inexpensive shooting (or whatever you called it) I need to call BS on that. IDPA was started as a money making proposition for Bill Wilson and for no other reason. He had a good business idea and he went with it. I applaud his foresight and his business savvy for making it work for as many as he did. He also sold a ton of Wilson Combat 1911s in the mean time and not one of them is inexpensive.

 

[M1911]

Actually, I think you missed the point. Any Sunday of the month, I can take a Sig 226 with carry 357SIG ammo and compete in USPSA Production Division. If I change the barrel on the same gun to 40S&W, I can shoot Production or Limited 10. If I lived in a free state and bought 15 round mags, I could compete in Limited Division. If there was no USPSA match and I found an IDPA match, I could use the same gear with less mags on my belt and shoot SSP.

And USPSA has its own set of rules about which go-fast widgets are allowed in those classes, rules which TheRoland would be bitching about just as he's bitching about IDPA rules.

I'm not that familiar with USPSA history. Was the production division started as a response to IDPA?

As for IDPA trying to keep this a place for inexpensive shooting (or whatever you called it) I need to call BS on that. IDPA was started as a money making proposition for Bill Wilson and for no other reason. He had a good business idea and he went with it. I applaud his foresight and his business savvy for making it work for as many as he did. He also sold a ton of Wilson Combat 1911s in the mean time and not one of them is inexpensive.

You don't need an expensive 1911 to shoot in IDPA. You can shoot your 226 and be competitive in SSP. In fact, the guys running Glocks in SSP will usually beat CDP.

As for IDPA keeping things inexpensive, read the rule book, and the explanations about which things are allowed and why.

 

[TheRoland]

rules which TheRoland would be bitching about just as he's bitching about IDPA rules.

I'm sorry if you're taking offense to this, that's not my intent. I see this sub-forum as more or less the 'bitch about rules' forum when I'm bored.

 

[dwarven1]

As for IDPA trying to keep this a place for inexpensive shooting (or whatever you called it) I need to call BS on that. IDPA was started as a money making proposition for Bill Wilson and for no other reason. He had a good business idea and he went with it. I applaud his foresight and his business savvy for making it work for as many as he did. He also sold a ton of Wilson Combat 1911s in the mean time and not one of them is inexpensive.

I suppose you could say that he wants to keep it inexpensive to get memberships at $40 (Wow, did they ever go up!! Didn't they use to be $15??) from a lot of people and not just the ones who can afford it a $3500 race gun.

 

[TY43215]

And USPSA has its own set of rules about which go-fast widgets are allowed in those classes, rules which TheRoland would be bitching about just as he's bitching about IDPA rules.

I'm not that familiar with USPSA history. Was the production division started as a response to IDPA?
(SNIP)

As for IDPA keeping things inexpensive, read the rule book, and the explanations about which things are allowed and why.

I would suggest before you make the statements you have made throughout this thread you learn a little more about USPSA, IDPA, and the people posting. I do not need to read the rule book. I have been a very active member of IDPA since 1999 and I am quite familiar with it and the workings. How about you?

I joined USPSA because I wanted more places to shoot and it gave me that . I stayed competitive in SSR, ESR, and USPSA revolver division until my hands gave me problems. I rarely shoot IDPA now because I don't like the way it is now scripted by those running stages. I DO still like the concept of IDPA that was lost some time ago. That of real world situations being solved with normal carry gear. That is how it started. Adding rifles and shotguns to the mix is a great idea and I hope it takes off.

One other thing about USPSA vs IDPA...... I am a "member" of USPSA with voting rights. If I do not like the way my area 7 rep is representing this area, I can run against him or vote against him. IDPA, I have no say at all and I am a customer of a for profit organization.

I don't care what you shoot. USPSA, IDPA, Steel Challenge, NRA Action Pistol, bulls eye, whatever....... There are rules and equipment. If you want to play the game, there is gear you can start with and gear you can grow into. There are divisions in most shooting sports for most things.

You keep throwing darts at USPSA, I suggest you come to the JKelley match and enjoy all the sports. Find me on the USPSA stage and if you want some help understanding it, I will be glad to give you the limited info I have. If you want to try a USPSA type Limited gun, I will have mine there and you can try it after your scored run.

BTW, If I remember correctly, IPSC was started from the Southwest Pistol League in Southern California. If you really want some insight go to Pioneer jn New Hampshire and talk to Mike Briggs. He was their historian at one time and can give you info. He was also at the initial meetings on IDPA so I am sure he can explain some on that process too.

There are also several very low membership numbered USPSA shooters on this forum that can enlighten you on the sport.

Whatever you do, don't short change yourself by continuing attitudes against any shooting sport.


And Yes Ross, the dues have risen significantly. I think my first IDPA card cost me $10. The price of making this affordable has gone up significantly

 

[TheRoland]

I didn't want to turn this into a fight, I just wanted to mount my light!

I'm out. Thanks for your thoughts, M1911.

 

[dwarven1]

Silly question... can't you just remove your light for the IDPA shoots and put it back on after you clean the gun? I mean, it's not like you have to sight it in.

 

[TheRoland]

Silly question... can't you just remove your light for the IDPA shoots and put it back on after you clean the gun? I mean, it's not like you have to sight it in.

Yes. I was just hoping IDPA would allow lights and other attachments, because I think they're really common. They didn't, for reasons M1911 has stated. I'm bummed about it, for reasons I've stated.

 

[jar]

Yes. I was just hoping IDPA would allow lights and other attachments, because I think they're really common. They didn't, for reasons M1911 has stated. I'm bummed about it, for reasons I've stated.

Do you carry with a mounted light?

 

[Knob Creek]

I'm almost sorry I started this thread! Considering how the original purpose of it has crashed & burned!

 

[ChevyGuy91]

I just want to shoot one of these multi-gun match's, and I keep looking back to this fight thread waiting for someone to say hey there is one scheduled.