IDPA, plates, practical. Do you know of any groups who run a hot range?

[TrashcanDan]

I'm gonna pour a little gas on this one.

Just like everything else in life, you get out of it what you put into it.

If all you can see about the games is points and score times, you're 100% incorrect.
All games are an offshoot of Jeff Coppers Thunder Ranch training programs. Bianchi cup I think was the first one. "They took my training programs and turned into a game with prizes"
Its about speed and accuracy under the guise of friendly competition, and is also a way to introduce the casual gunowner to other aspects of shooting other than their once a year range trip, or doing combat rolls around their house.

Even bowling pin matches have a hidden training aspect. You're trying to put a bullet in a small hit zone at a distance while under duress. Repeatedly. Prove me wrong.

Cold range, Hot range, whatever.

Any range is a hot range when theres no events. Find a pit. Stack some barrels. Bang away.

 

[hedgehound]

To what end? There simply is no advantage or reason to run a hot range in a game. It's not like the Taliban is going to make a sudden attack from over the next berm.

I think, you missed the point.
Are hot range games common? No.
Is there an advantage? No.
Is there a disadvantage? No.
Can hot range game be done? Yes.
Why people want hot range games? I don't care. People want strange things sometime.

PS. Funny, I would have said mujahideen or dushman. Probably even less likely to jump over the berm.

 

[allen-1]

I just got home from shooting a USPSA match at my local club.

We had 9 people in my squad:
For Dustin, Octavia, Josh and Nate this was their first match.
Bill has shot a few matches and I showed him how to run the nook today, he was a tremendous help.
Nebraska shoots PCC and does it competently, but he's not an RO and he fat fingers the nook, so he doesn't get to score.
Bob, Tony & I are USPSA RO's; Tony was a MD at Fort Campbell in Kentucky, Bob's been an RO for probably 10 years.

So, we've got 3 RO's and 4 brand new shooters.
6 stages in 90plus degree heat.

Josh is my neighbor, he came over last night so we could talk about what he should expect. He's retired military, he was brought up with guns, it's just USPSA/IDPA that's new to him. He did fine.

Everyone had fun, nobody got DQ'd or hurt, and we've got four new shooters who are coming back to shoot again.
That's part of what USPSA/IDPA is all about at the club level; it's not NASCAR, it's the local modified track - the entry bar is low, but we don't want wrecks.

 

[hedgehound]

90 degrees? This is a hot range!

 

[allen-1]

90 degrees? This is a hot range!

When I got in my truck after the match, the gauge said that it was 96 degrees outside. Five minutes down the road, it read 92 degrees.
It felt hotter than that. I drank half a gallon of Bio-Lyte/water. We stock coolers and sell water for .25 a bottle, dehydration is dangerous.

 

[Supermoto]

I'm gonna pour a little gas on this one.

Just like everything else in life, you get out of it what you put into it.

If all you can see about the games is points and score times, you're 100% incorrect.
All games are an offshoot of Jeff Coppers Thunder Ranch training programs. Bianchi cup I think was the first one. "They took my training programs and turned into a game with prizes"
Its about speed and accuracy under the guise of friendly competition, and is also a way to introduce the casual gunowner to other aspects of shooting other than their once a year range trip, or doing combat rolls around their house.

Even bowling pin matches have a hidden training aspect. You're trying to put a bullet in a small hit zone at a distance while under duress. Repeatedly. Prove me wrong.

Training is what you do before the match. You compete at the match

 

[ThePreBanMan]

Because someone walking/moving around with a loaded, cocked and locked tricked out 1911 race gun chambered for super 38 with a 1/2 pound trigger pull in a quick draw holster seems perfectly safe to me.......



I can see why op would be upset if that weren't allowed.

 

[xtry51]

Because someone walking/moving around with a loaded, cocked and locked tricked out 1911 race gun chambered for super 38 with a 1/2 pound trigger pull in a quick draw holster seems perfectly safe to me.......



I can see why op would be upset if that weren't allowed.

My counter to this would be no one would be forcing you to carry a hot gun. But right now they forcing you to carry a cold one.

 

[BrianWilson]

My counter to this would be no one would be forcing you to carry a hot gun. But right now they forcing you to carry a cold one.

Nobody is forcing you to do anything.

 

[xtry51]

Nobody is forcing you to do anything.

Lol, now that is quite the side stepping. Thats like saying the government doesn't force me to pay taxes, I choose to work.

When you have a monopoly, it basically is force.

 

[BrianWilson]

Lol, now that is quite the side stepping. Thats like saying the government doesn't force me to pay taxes, I choose to work.

When you have a monopoly, it basically is force.

Well..... I don't remember the tax cops showing up at my house for the matches I didn't go........Monopoly is another game...and guess what? It has rules as well......

 

[allen-1]

My counter to this would be no one would be forcing you to carry a hot gun. But right now they forcing you to carry a cold one.

um, no.

If you choose to participate in a sanctioned IDPA/USPSA/etc match, you agree to play by the match rules.
If you don't like the match rules, don't play.

I've got a couple of friends who won't shoot IDPA, they say it's too structured for them, they like the free form of USPSA, (if you can see it, you can shoot it).

If you want to run a hot range, run it. I've got friends who do it almost every weekend. Sometime I shoot with them. I know those guys, and I'm not worried about some noob or hotshot putting a round in me because he doesn't know what he's doing.

 

[xtry51]

I'm not here saying I have a problem with IDPA/etc. I clearly stated I already choose not to compete in these leagues based on experience going to matches and it leaving a bad taste in my mouth.

I'm simply providing my opinion and feedback. Training is not an issue as I can shoot on my own land and have friends who also have home ranges and we organize our own shooting events. I also do at least one private instruction class a year and I give my money to people who don't run cold ranges.

 

[ThePreBanMan]

My counter to this would be no one would be forcing you to carry a hot gun. But right now they forcing you to carry a cold one.

Their property, their rules. Don't like them you're FREE to shoot somewhere else more accommodating to your preferences... Or you could always cough up the bucks to build your own match range... You're free to do that too. You're not being deprived of any rights here. You're just being asked to respect the rights of others to make their own rules governing how others use their own properties...

You're not ENTITLED to do as you please on SOMEONE ELSE'S land. But if you don;t think that's true I would like to come take a shit on your kitchen table.... But something tells me you may have some "rules" about that in your home.... Damn those rules on your own property.... Imagine that..... I think there's a word that applies here.... It's coming to me.... I can smell it....
Hiprocracy....

 

[Supermoto]

I think this is being blown out of proportion here. Xtry51 doesn't like to shoot on a cold range, so he doesn't. He's not telling others to stop

 

[KBCraig]

Did anyone cite examples of bad things happening on hot ranges? Could be, but if so I missed them.

The examples of NDs were at cold ranges during sanctioned events with tons of rules. Did the rules prevent the NDs?

 

[Supermoto]

Did anyone cite examples of bad things happening on hot ranges? Could be, but if so I missed them.

The examples of NDs were at cold ranges during sanctioned events with tons of rules. Did the rules prevent the NDs?

I'm not sure you understand what a cold range is if you think a cold range would have prevented the examples....the shooters were supposed to have their guns loaded then. Its not a range issue, it's a shooter issue.

 

[Matt_SERE]

Tangent alert.
This thread has me thinking of the a**h*** who was downrange during one of the stages.

 

[TheRoland]

I think this is being blown out of proportion here. Xtry51 doesn't like to shoot on a cold range, so he doesn't. He's not telling others to stop

If we don't get mad that people on the internet like things we don't like (or don't like things we do like), what would we get mad about?

 

[TheRoland]

It's worth mentioning, now that we've had a whole thread talking about how dangerous it is to have people racing with guns, that injury rates for shooting sports seem super low. Hot range, cold range, whatever; your local ice rink or horse farm has a ton more injuries.

 

[Rick O'Shea]

Thank You O.P., These threads of yours deliver!

 

[xtry51]

Their property, their rules. Don't like them you're FREE to shoot somewhere else more accommodating to your preferences... Or you could always cough up the bucks to build your own match range... You're free to do that too. You're not being deprived of any rights here. You're just being asked to respect the rights of others to make their own rules governing how others use their own properties...

You're not ENTITLED to do as you please on SOMEONE ELSE'S land. But if you don;t think that's true I would like to come take a shit on your kitchen table.... But something tells me you may have some "rules" about that in your home.... Damn those rules on your own property.... Imagine that..... I think there's a word that applies here.... It's coming to me.... I can smell it....
Hiprocracy....

Never said I was entitled. Never made a demand they change. Youre getting amped up over nothing. I dont care about these comps.

 

[drgrant]

Their property, their rules. Don't like them you're FREE to shoot somewhere else more accommodating to your preferences... Or you could always cough up the bucks to build your own match range... You're free to do that too. You're not being deprived of any rights here. You're just being asked to respect the rights of others to make their own rules governing how others use their own properties...

You're not ENTITLED to do as you please on SOMEONE ELSE'S land. But if you don;t think that's true I would like to come take a shit on your kitchen table.... But something tells me you may have some "rules" about that in your home.... Damn those rules on your own property.... Imagine that..... I think there's a word that applies here.... It's coming to me.... I can smell it....
Hiprocracy....

Lol when did Xtry act entitled in this thread? He simply stated his opinion, nothing more. He's not forcing anyone to do anything or even asking anyone to do
anything.

This is no different than someone going "I prefer not to ride on airplanes, I don't like them" he's not calling for the airlines to get banned, here.

This is one of the things that's f***ed about our society these days, peaceful disagreement where it doesn't bother someone else isn't tolerated anymore. People are losing sight of the fact that
theres a HUGE difference between having an opinion about something and forcing that opinion.... Literally nothing is a problem until "force" becomes
involved.

 

[masssheltie]

Even the ACTS (American Confederation of Tactical Shooters) and GADPA (Great American Defensive Pistol Association) operate a cold range. These are noteworthy because both organizations came to be because their charter members felt USPSA and even IDPA do not offer a 'real world' shooting experience.

OP are you a member of a gun club? One that has bays where you can set up and run the type of drills/scenarios you want? Have you considered being the organizer for the exact thing that you seek?

My club does not do ANYTHING practical. However, I shoot with a very small group that meets every so often at Manchester Firing Line. We take over the member's range, and set up a course. Hot range, rifle and pistol with an instructor offering critique.

And if it doesn't lock back?

Chamber check the gun before it goes into your holster???

You really don’t get it. The problem is that you don’t know who “that guy” is until there’s an accident. If I choose to attend a match, I never turn my back on the guy with the loaded gun because I don’t trust him not to do something stupid/dangerous. If everyone on the range was hot, I could never relax because I have a significant amount of time/experience running matches with new shooters who could not be trusted alone with a loaded gun. In fact, it’s not just new shooters, it’s also seasoned veteran’s who’ve been shooting for years all by themselves in the pistol port at their range who never know just how dangerous they are with a loaded gun because nobody ever watches them shoot. You would have to be out of your f’ing mind to say you’d be comfortable at a match on a range with 50+ shooters all carrying hot, most of whom you don’t know. Or, you’d have to be very inexperienced when it comes to understanding the dangers associated with loaded guns in inexperienced hands. I sincerely hope I am never on the same range as you, because my instinct tells me you would be dangerous even on a cold range.

If the loaded gun is not in the person's hands, how can there be a problem?

And if you're worried about stupid people handling loaded guns behind the line, then what's to stop one of them from loading one back there, and creating an issue? If you really want to be perfectly safe, then all guns should be turned into the range officer when the people arrive at the club, and only handed to the shooter when it's their time to shoot. When the stage is over, the gun is unloaded, maybe locked with a gun lock, and confiscated by the range officer.

 

[Supermoto]

When I finish a stage, I can remove the magazine from the gun for recharge without removing the gun from the holster

Chamber check the gun before it goes into your holster???

So you chamber check the gun. put it in the holster, the change out the mag in the holster? Who are your instructors?

 

[BrianWilson]

Maybe in the spirit of "Keeping it Real" do away with the 180 as well. Just...please..... don't set any of the targets in front my car...OK?

 

[hedgehound]

Maybe in the spirit of "Keeping it Real" do away with the 180 as well. Just...please..... don't set any of the targets in front my car...OK?

IDPA rules 2.9 Muzzle Safety says 180 rule is not universal.

 

[xtry51]

So you chamber check the gun. put it in the holster, the change out the mag in the holster? Who are your instructors?

This is contrary to every professional instructor I've trained with. If Super Dave saw you do that in a class he'd skyline you immediately.

 

[soam]

It's worth mentioning, now that we've had a whole thread talking about how dangerous it is to have people racing with guns, that injury rates for shooting sports seem super low. Hot range, cold range, whatever; your local ice rink or horse farm has a ton more injuries.

The worst injuries I've seen are from range props. Getting whacked in the head by a falling steel target HURTS.

 

[fshalor]

Yes, and no.
I'm not running my carry gun in the event.
But I'm on the range where a sanctioned event is being run, it's a cold range, and I'm wearing a loaded firearm.


I shoot in a pin league when I'm in CT at my club. I know people are wearing loaded weapons, nobody cares as long as they remain concealed. The pistols in the competition are to be unloaded at all times, except at the line - and they're loaded there under the direction of one of the guys running the match when the range is ready for the next pair of shooters.

I wasn't present, my buddy Mike was and he saw this happen. Steve was putting his gun away at the end of the night. He slapped an "empty" magazine into the firearm and then pulled the trigger to drop the hammer. He was pointing the gun at the table at the time. The bullet went through the table, bounced off the table leg and hit Bill in the calf.

Fortunately it was a .22 caliber match - not a medium bore or big bore match.

Steve's not a child, not new to firearms; he was careless.

There was a great deal of discussion at my club when this happened about how to keep it from happening again.

I'm personally glad that Bill wasn't hurt badly enough to require a hospital trip. The neighbors that would like our club shut down would have had a field day over someone getting shot on the premises.

Cold range rules are in place to try to keep this kind of negligence from happening.

I have a similar story. Cold range rules, .22 Rimfire monthly matches. CC was allowed, but reminders in every saftey brief and signs to keep it concealed, don't touch, fondle, fiddle or unholster a non-event weapon.

We are between stages and one of the last string competitors in conversation with one of the top shooters dad's somehow thinks it's okay to show off 1911 chrome plated and engraved carry piece.

Draws to show and puts one through the radiator of a brand new 2500HD Chevy owned by the RO.

Takeaway. Do I trust myself to keep a concealed pistol out of the light for a match? Yes. Do I wish everyone would do that? Yes.

Some of the people I would not mind shooting with in the Game can not be expected to know to do that. Hence for Game, including those people is worth the Cold and Carry to Clear with RO rules.

Honestly, enough people have easy access to lots of firepower that the need for CCW at that event is low for me

Do you carry your OC and a good knife? You should. Maybe?