Is a Browning safe worth the money

[mac1911]

Nothing with the Browning name is "worth" anything anymore... a $2500 Citori comes in a Styrofoam shitbox, most shotguns of the same price range come with nice cases

I might not be old enough to remember but as far back as I can. 1985 brownings never came in a case. Always a extra?

 

[Laura]

I live in a condo. The problem I have buying a safe is that I neither have the room to support a large one or the money to afford to buy something burglar and fire proof....

 

[Spanz]

I live in a condo. The problem I have buying a safe is that I neither have the room to support a large one or the money to afford to buy something burglar and fire proof....

I had a weird space that was big enough for a safe, but I could not get anything in there. I bought a Zanotti safe, that comes in pieces to assemble on site. I am very happy with it.

http://www.zanottiarmor.com/safes.htm

 

[UncleDuke]

Look at getting a used safe. Do you need a safe for long guns or handguns? There are number of safe dealers that recondition safes and offer them at competitive prices. Used jewelry safes are a good buy and offer just as good, if not better protection than RSC rated safes and, depending on their interior height, can be configured to fit a rifle or shotgun. Be on the lookout for Treadlok safes. They're not made any more, but are build very well. If you are looking for something that will give you some measure of protection against fire and burglary, have you considered one of the imported Liberty Safes or a safe that you can assemble?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

It's about how many nines of protection you want to buy.

A cheap safe or cabinet like Stack On or a 12 gauge safe may protect you from 90% of break ins.

Moving up to a higher end gun save will probably move that closer to 99%.

Get a jewelry grade (two ton, TRTL30x6 safe) and you likely closer to 99.9%.

Install a build in Mosler bank vault and you may be at 99.99%.

Just because you can't get a high end safe that would meet insurance requirements for a diamond brokerage doesn't mean that a "lesser" safe is a waste of money. Also, there is a HUGE spread in security ranges on so-called safes with tin can (RSC) ratings.

 

[bigblue]

Just buy a pretty tin can and paint it camo so the thieves can't see it.

 

[dcmdon]

Most house breaks are over in 5 or 10 minutes, a gun safe will stop the average house thief. Most gun owners I know cant afford a "real safe" and don't have the structure to support a 5,000 lb safe.

Its all about managing risk.

I know people with $40,000 worth of machine guns in a $1500 safe. That seems to me pretty stupid.

The structure to support a 5000 lb safe is called your basement floor. Most houses have it.

The other thing is that its not like all "real" safe's weigh 5000 lbs. You can often find TL15 rated safes for under $1500. These are more like 1500 to 2000 lbs.

The bottom line is that unless you value a fancy interior over real protection, you are better off with a used commercial safe. It works for me because i use the standard metal shelves in the upper areas for handguns. In the area under the shelves I have a sock over the guns I don't shoot often. They get piled up like cord wood in the back of the safe tight against each other. The stuff I shoot regularly goes in front without a sock. Its not pretty, but it works for me.

One other thing to remember. Most homeowner policies place a limit on firearms lost to THEFT in the $2000 range. Many of them have no limits with respect to loss related to flood or fire. Obviously check your insurance guy first, but if you are on a budget, you might want to scrimp on the fire protection and make sure you have good documentation of your collection.

Don

 

[dcmdon]

The issue with Liberty and all other gun safes is that they have a limited TL rating; you don't usually see a TL rating on residential gun safes, only a RSC (Residential Security Container). They offer limited resistance against a tool attack (attempted burglary/robbery).

Safes that are certified as burglary-resistant bear the metal label of Underwriters Laboratories Inc.

The UL’s rigorous testing is conducted by burglary experts using a variety of devices, including diamond grinding wheels, high-speed drills with pressure-applying devices, carbide-tip drills, and hand tools such as hammers and chisels. The tests are conducted under ideal laboratory conditions, unlike those a real burglar usually encounters. Security experts say it could take a typical burglar as much as three or four times longer to crack a UL-tested safe. Thus, the UL rating represents the minimum protection a safe is certified to provide.

Underwriters Laboratories uses 10 classifications or ratings for burglary-resistant safes. They are, in increasing order of protection: TL-15; Deposit Safe; TL-30; TRTL-30; TL-15X6; TL-30X6; TRTL-15X6; TRTL-30 X6; TRTL-60X6; TXTL-60X6. Each letter and number of the rating code represents a different aspect of security that the safe provides.

Burglar’s tools. TL means a safe is tool-resistant, TR means it’s torch-resistant, TRTL indicates that it’s tool- and torch-resistant, and TXTL stands for torch-, tool-, and explosives-resistant.
The highest rating is the TXTL safe, which is rated against an attack using explosives. Very few safe manufacturers made these and I believe only one manufacturer still makes them. If you have to have the ultimate in security (short of buying a bank vault from Diebold), you'll buy a Chubb. You'll also pay out the ass for it.

Extent of resistance. The numbers 15, 30, and 60 represent the number of minutes a safe will withstand a series of attacks. The longer a safe can resist a break-in, the more likely it is that burglars will flee and that police or security guards will arrive before any jewelry is stolen.

Sides of a Safe. X6 means a safe provides equal protection on all six sides (including top and bottom). When X6 isn’t listed, it means the safe provides protection only on its front face and door.
Thus, a TRTL-30X6 UL rating means a safe is certified to resist entry from torch and tools on all six sides for a half-hour. A TL-15 rating means a safe can resist physical attack from tools to its front face or door for 15 minutes. TXTL safes do not have a numerical rating.


For RSC rated safes, Browning is a good safe, as is any safe made by Amsec. Liberty Safes are good against fire and the average burglar. The higher end safes made by Liberty Safe (Lincoln, National, Presidential) have thicker bodies, as do their cousins from the National Safe Company (which was purchased a few years back by Liberty Safe Company). If you want a commercial safe that is rated for TRTL-x, you can get one that is used and reconditioned at a reasonable price and comparable to what you would pay for a residential gun safe.

Uncle Duke

Like uncle duke says.

Except don't forget that you can buy these used for pennies on the dollar.

A recent ad fro CL. As far as I'm concerned, if you have more than $15k worth of guns and own your home, this is a no brainer. Combine this with a good monitored alarm and you are in good shape. The safe requires time to break, the alarm denies the burglar time.

Even the best safe will fail given enough time. Remember the guy a few years ago with a vault. He was burglarized. The cops said it looked like the burglars had been there for several hours.

If the guy had an alarm, it wouldn't have happened.


BERNARDINI HARWOOD JEWEL VAULT SAFE
TL30 - 1+ HOUR FIRE PROTCTION
OUT: 74.5H X 32.5W X 29D
IN: 68H X 26W X 20D
ILCO SPY PROOF MANUAL DIAL AND 2 KEY ENTRY
$2999.99

 

[dcmdon]

Just because you can't get a high end safe that would meet insurance requirements for a diamond brokerage doesn't mean that a "lesser" safe is a waste of money. Also, there is a HUGE spread in security ranges on so-called safes with tin can (RSC) ratings.

Definitely true.

i know someone who has a custom sized Sturdy Safe. It is made of 3 ga steel. Which is about 1/4 inch. It was a fire safe and had an inner liner of 10 ga steel on the inside of the insulation. 10 ga is as thick as some safes use on the exterior shell.

This safe is only rated as a RSC. So its the same rating as a stack on. But its obviously offers much better protection. He purchased this rather than a used commercial safe because he had a space available in which to hide a safe and wanted it to be as large as possible.

Don

 

[UncleDuke]

For those who want to move into commercially rated safes, I recommend Lacka Safe in NYC. They have a fairly large inventory of used safes that are well suited for use for firearm storage. I'm with dcmdon re: having a home alarm system. Just make sure that you have a battery back-up and cellular connection in addition to a hard-wire connection to the central monitoring station.

I agree with Rob Boudrie on this: I wouldn't count out safes with RSC ratings, especially safes that have walls that are measured in terms of inches or fractions of inches of steel rather than gauged steel. Not all RSC rated safes are equal, so you have to look closely at the numbers. For those who have high value collections or irreplaceable firearms, I recommend spending time shopping and, if necessary, spending more money on a TL or TRTL rated safe. You do have to be careful as older commercial safes relied on concrete (often powdered) to provide heft and insulation against a fire. These got to be quite hot and didn't protect the contents from getting scorched. Newer safes have composite materials or more advanced concrete admixtures that provide insulation and protection against drill and tool attacks.

Uncle Duke

 

[UncleDuke]

It's about how many nines of protection you want to buy.
Install a build in Mosler bank vault and you may be at 99.99%.
.

Funny you'd mention it Rob, because I'm looking at leasing a former bank that closed about a year ago and turning this into a gun shop. The bank has a large Diebold cash vault and a smaller room with safe deposit boxes, which I thought would be good for storing my inventory of NFA firearms. It has a day gate so I wouldn't have to open the vault every time that I wanted to retrieve a gun or suppressor. After bricking up most of the windows and replacing all of the glass in the foyer entrance with ballistic glass and re-activating the alarm system and I think I'll be good to go.

 

[travis]

Once you do that, you will learn that no "gun safe" is worth the money. Buy a used commercial or jewelers safe for similar money and get a REAL safe.

They are all over Craigslist and typically have a 1' thick solid steel door with additional aggregate protection. The only problem is they weigh 3000 - 5000 lbs.

- - - Updated - - -



You can get a similar used safe for less than half of that. Although I'm impressed that it sounds like Liberty is finally making a "real" safe.

Don

The issue there is two fold. First fire rating most commercial safes are not fire rated as their duty is to protect form bg's getting what is inside. My brother has a old bank vault ( he built it into his basement when he built his house ) It is a nice 10X10 walk in room but the door weighs more then many cars. Commercial vaults tend to have very thick walls and less space inside. A home safe is for overall protection form both fire and bg's.

 

[UncleDuke]

Older commercial safes don't offer as good fire protection as new commercial safes and vaults. Older safes and vaults have concrete or gunnite as the insulation which offers fair to good protection against a tool attack, although little protection against an intense fire. Paper burns at 451 degrees F, which all commercial safes will provide some protection against for a period of time. Most AMSEC safes, and safes made by John Tann, ISM, Kaso, Mosler, and Diebold will provide more than sufficient protection against fire and burglar tool attacks. Chubb is top of the line, although for all practical purposes, is too expensive for most people.

 

[EasternSecuritySafe]

Hi usp45ct!

That's our safe! The Green Mountain Boyz are a Browning Grand Series safe with our name on it. We had them made up with a Vermont scenic for New Englanders. We just got onto the forums here today.

Zach
Eastern Security Safe, Co.
Mendon, MA
508-473-1048.

Curious. I have seen Green Mountsin safe has the same door system and pretty much the same specs and are made n USA. I wonder if they make the browning.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Funny you'd mention it Rob, because I'm looking at leasing a former bank that closed about a year ago and turning this into a gun shop. The bank has a large Diebold cash vault and a smaller room with safe deposit boxes, which I thought would be good for storing my inventory of NFA firearms. It has a day gate so I wouldn't have to open the vault every time that I wanted to retrieve a gun or suppressor. After bricking up most of the windows and replacing all of the glass in the foyer entrance with ballistic glass and re-activating the alarm system and I think I'll be good to go.

Sounds like Cape Gun Works on Cape Cod. They gave me a tour and are also using the bank vault for their NFA goodies.

You could even get into renting out private safe deposit boxes, however, I do not know all the legal implications of this.

Since you are in Ohio, if you take something in on pawn that is stolen, the rightful owner would have to pay to get it back from you unless that person could prove you knew it was stolen when you bought it. (yes, this really is Ohio law)

Most AMSEC safes, and safes made by John Tann, ISM, Kaso, Mosler, and Diebold will provide more than sufficient protection against fire and burglar tool attacks. Chubb is top of the line, although for all practical purposes, is too expensive for most people.

AMSEC sells both "gun safes" (RSC - REsidential Security Container, glorified tin can) as well as TL rated safes.

RSC come in a wide variety of strength, ranging from 12 gauge to 1/4". Some of the thicker ones are pretty decent, but still not up there with a safe that would be insurance approved in a jewelery store.

Liberty has nice TL rated safe (their commercial model) - $6995 retail; dual mechanical and electronic locks (in case the electronic one fails).

 

[SIG-owner]

We have a huge Browning. Love it. That thing isn't going anywhere. Had to hire 3 movers to get it in the house. Only issue I have is the door doesn't fully accommodate my AR 15 but all others are fine.

 

[UncleDuke]

I had thought about renting out the safe deposit boxes, but have decided that I'm going to use them to store NFA items that people have purchased while they are waiting for their transfers/tax stamps to go through. The vault is large enough to hold damn near anything. I'm still working out details with the bank that owns the property regarding improvements that need to be made (e.g., bricking up windows, changing the vestibule/foyer, getting rid of the bank teller counters and installing display cases, bricking up the night deposit, taking out the ATM machine. They're willing to lease or sell it provided that I am willing to abide by their deed restrictions- no commercial banking operations on the premises for ten years, so for my purposes, I think that they're likely to cede to my "demands".

I don't plan to do any pawns or loans on firearms, although I will purchase used firearms. In the past when I had an FFL I required persons who wanted to sell or trade a firearm to provide me with a driver license and sign a notarized statement that the firearm was not used in a crime, the firearm was legally acquired, and that they were legally able to possess the firearm at the time that they sold it to me, I would allow local law enforcement to inspect the firearm and check it against any/all lists of stolen property, and that I had the right of rescission for three days from when they present the firearm.

 

[usp45ct]

Ordered and received a browning safe from Brian at Eastern Safe. Delivery for me was in a few days and I am thrilled with the purchase.