is it worth altering this .223 load?

[paul73]

hi, just seating here looking at data and thinking it over.
i got a decently performing 69SMK load, it shoots well on both cold and hot barrel. but it is on a medium to slow side.
the load is at 24.3gr varget, gives from 2722 to 2780 fps. it seems that there is an other node, at 2900fps there that groups OK on the cold gun:


but it seems when the gun heats up and speeds up - a faster load spread deteriorated much more, can be seen below.
those groups below were at the very end of the session when barrel got quite hot.
also an interesting thing that ES/SD on the weaker load is far from great, yet it still groups better.


so i am just deliberating with myself - is there any practical reason to go with a hotter load in mid 2900fps, or is it more sensible to stick with the 24.3?
it still should be ok for up to 600yds, i think, and i do not think i would need it, ever, going further.
i will probably play more with 25.5gr loads just to see what gives, but, not sure if it makes any real practical sense.

any comments?

 

[xtry51]

I'd stick with what you have at the slower velocity if it was me. You'll get more life out of the brass and the barrel.

 

[paul73]

looking at more pictures - an other one still bothering me is the one where i cannot find any working node for the 75gr BTHP hornady.
which is a pity as it sells for a relatively low price of $19.8 per 100 - for a reason, perhaps. the cheapest i was getting 69SMK was around $21.8 per 100.
pity. but so far none of 75gr worked well there, nor did 80.5gr bergers.

i wanna go back now to .223 and play with it more again as other calibers got settled. i still have 3-4lbs of 8208, will try it perhaps on those 75gr.

 

[xtry51]

Maybe check out Eric Cortinas new EC Tuner Version 2? He makes an adapter for all common thread types.

 

[paul73]

Maybe check out Eric Cortinas new EC Tuner Version 2? He makes an adapter for all common thread types.

i do not see much sense in even beginning dealing with tuners on a gun i reload myself for 100%. for a 22lr gun you have to use stock ammo for - sure, it makes sense there.
but here, considering i can bake up any load for it with any seating depth and powder type - dunno, do not want even to begin.

i do not have a lot of those hornadys 75gr, and looking online it is not evident if that bullet was ever stellar for anybody. i am not overly obsessed over it, just curious if i will find any miracle combination for it to work a bit better, in my specific gun.

 

[mac1911]

i do not see much sense in even beginning dealing with tuners on a gun i reload myself for 100%. for a 22lr gun you have to use stock ammo for - sure, it makes sense there.
but here, considering i can bake up any load for it with any seating depth and powder type - dunno, do not want even to begin.

i do not have a lot of those hornadys 75gr, and looking online it is not evident if that bullet was ever stellar for anybody. i am not overly obsessed over it, just curious if i will find any miracle combination for it to work a bit better, in my specific gun.

If you dont have a sizable amount of those 75s dont waste time or powder.
Load them up for steel plate blasting where Hits On Target are good enough.
Berger 80s can be funky. I got 1k when I bought a 1/7 twist heavy match barrel and never found a load that shot all that great with them. I did not get past 300 yards with the 80s
I have come to like the Nosler 77s for most of my target shooting

As for your loads , I would rather have a load that holds more consistent groups through the cold to hot barrel temps.
I have nosler 80 grain pills that show good promise even out of the 1/8 barrel . Only had them to 200 so far. Just not getting out much

 

[shootymacshootface]

.22 center fire rifles are very sensitive to twist rate vs. bullet weight. From what info you have provided I would say your barrel won't like most bullets over 70gr.
In my experience, I have found that most bottle necked cartridges seem to just work better at or near max loads. But, if you will be doing a lot of shooting, then obviously you would be better off sticking to a lighter load.

 

[PatMcD]

You will not find 77-90 grain loads that will group better (or as good as) your 69 grain loads at 100 yards. That's not what they were meant for. Those heavy loads WILL shoot better out at 600 yards than your 69's though.
Count on it.

How are you charging your cases? Your SD's look really high for 100 yards. I get SD's in the 18-26 range at 600 yards by dumping them on a Dillon.

 

[paul73]

Hi SDs are due to an assortment of range picked up brass. When I bother to sort through and use consistent brass of a same brand at least - SD drops down well. As it still shoots well up to 100/300 - I stopped getting bothered with it.
It is measured by chrono at the muzzle, not at the target.

 

[55_grain]

If your lower charge load shoots better, hot or cold, use that one!

If you're shooting for groups to find the best load, sort your brass, at least by headstamp if not by weight also. You don't want to make a load decision based on that one flyer that snuck in there with that stray "AMERC" brass, lol.

55_grain

 

[PatMcD]

I think you told us elsewhere, but who's barrel is it, and what twist rate?

Sometimes no matter what you do, a barrel just won't shoot. I had a Krieger I spent over $400 on, and wasted a year with. I never shot a good score with that barrel all year, but I thought to myself "It's GOT to shoot good; it's a Krieger! I must suck". At the end of the year, I shot a match with my practice upper that had your basic WOA Wilson on it and shot my best score of the season. I yanked that piece of crap Krieger off of there and sent it down the road.


EDIT
And that's not saying your barrel won't shoot. Those 69 grain loads seem to be pretty tight to me. 2700fps is fine. There's no way I'd expect them to perform well at 600 though.

 

[paul73]

I think you told us elsewhere, but who's barrel is it, and what twist rate?

Sometimes no matter what you do, a barrel just won't shoot. I had a Krieger I spent over $400 on, and wasted a year with. I never shot a good score with that barrel all year, but I thought to myself "It's GOT to shoot good; it's a Krieger! I must suck". At the end of the year, I shot a match with my practice upper that had your basic WOA Wilson on it and shot my best score of the season. I yanked that piece of crap Krieger off of there and sent it down the road.


EDIT
And that's not saying your barrel won't shoot. Those 69 grain loads seem to be pretty tight to me. 2700fps is fine. There's no way I'd expect them to perform well at 600 though.

it is 20" 1:8 twist larue stealth. i get what you`re saying, no prob.

it _should_ be capable to deal with the 75-77-80gr projectiles well. i just never gave it proper effort. first of all there is a factual limitation of me having no access to a 600yds - i tried making arrangements with at least 2 people now to get to Redding, but, whole summer went by and it just never materialized - because of, well, just life gets in the way. so shooting at the 100 and 300yds - current loads suffice well, plus i got now two 6.5CM and a 6 dasher guns that are all quite great and it diminishes the desire to keep pushing this .223 to the limit.

plus those heavy bullets cost way more, i just looked - the 77gr noslers are $31 per 100, 80gr bergers are more. none can be sit to fit a magazine, that is an additional negative.
the 75gr hornadys are supposed to sit at a mag length, but do not perform well, as can be seen. i have 4 boxes of them left, so, probably just will put them on for plinking as @mac1911 suggested.

i have a good stash of those 69gr SMKs and i now load them in the batch on my dillon, and they still seem to group OK considering non-matched brass and powder drop deviations, so, i just gonna stick to that load for now i guess.

 

[PatMcD]

77 Noslers will fit in a mag. I've shot thousands that way.

 

[paul73]

77 Noslers will fit in a mag. I've shot thousands that way.

well, good to know, i may try it later. do not want to spend any more money on bullets right now.
unless somebody wants to trade them with me for the 80.5gr bergers.

btw, will those 77 noslers fire well on varget, or will it need r15 or slower powders?

 

[PatMcD]

Varget, RE15, 8208, 4895, N140: in my opinion are all interchangeable for 69-90 grain bullets in 223.
Not the same charge weight obviously, but they are all very close in burn rate and are fairly short-cut powders. I'd use whatever I had available.

Also, my loading observations are based on the game I play: NRA/CMP Highpower Rifle. I don't shoot F-class or Benchrest where a more carefully loading process is probably required.

 

[shootymacshootface]

it is 20" 1:8 twist larue stealth.

How many rounds would you say are on your barrel?

The only other suggestion I have is to make for certain that your barrel is not copper fouled. It takes me about 1 week to thoroughly clean my barrels of copper, the way I do it.
Also, did your barrel get a proper break in when it was new?

 

[paul73]

How many rounds would you say are on your barrel?

The only other suggestion I have is to make for certain that your barrel is not copper fouled. It takes me about 1 week to thoroughly clean my barrels of copper, the way I do it.
Also, did your barrel get a proper break in when it was new?

why any of that matters? barrel has a claimed 10k life, is may be a 1 third into it, and i see no issues with 69gr loads in it. barrel is fine. copper fouled? why?

 

[PatMcD]

LaRue claims their barrels last 10K? Is it chrome-lined? If it is, then it may very well last 10K. But, that may also be the reason it doesn't shoot as well as you want it to.

If it isn't chrome-lined, 10K is false advertising on their part.

 

[paul73]

LaRue claims their barrels last 10K? Is it chrome-lined? If it is, then it may very well last 10K. But, that may also be the reason it doesn't shoot as well as you want it to.

If it isn't chrome-lined, 10K is false advertising on their part.

i do not care much of what they claim, i just shoot it.
it is actually predat OBR where they claim appx 10K barrel life. go figure. dunno.
i have this:

5.56 Stealth Barrel - LaRue Tactical

 

[shootymacshootface]

why any of that matters? barrel has a claimed 10k life, is may be a 1 third into it, and i see no issues with 69gr loads in it. barrel is fine. copper fouled? why?

Only that if it wasn't properly broken in, and you haven't been practicing an effective copper removal regimen, your barrel may not be shooting to it's full potential.
Every bullet forced down a barrel leaves a coat of copper that was applied with great heat and pressure. A seemingly spotless barrel can still be badly fouled with copper. To find out if your barrel is copper fouled, simply run a wet patch down it, let it sit overnight. Run a clean dry patch through it the next day. If it comes out a green/blue color, then you have copper fouling. Of all the copper removing solvents that I have tried, I have had the best results with Hoppes #9 benchrest solvent.
Your barrel does shoot very good, but it may potentially have more accuracy.

 

[paul73]

Your barrel does shoot very good, but it may potentially have more accuracy.

i get what you`re saying, no, no issues with the barrel, no coupling and barrel was clean prior to any test shoots.
all listed issues are relevant in a generic case, but none of that is relevant in this specific scope. my own trigger control has more relevance to the size of those groups than a barrel overall condition.

 

[xtry51]

The results are even better than I would expect if you have 3k rounds through that barrel already.

I second using a copper remover. I've moved to this one below. It's a foam. You spray, let it sit, patch and repeat until it no longer comes out blue. The first time you do it, it will take a lot of cycles to get it out.

WIPE OUT WIPE OUT 5OZ BORE CLEANER Amazon.com: WIPE OUT WIPE OUT 5OZ BORE CLEANER : Health & Household

 

[paul73]

I second using a copper remover.

i use hoppes #9. have a huge bottle of it, will last a lifetime, it is still 4/5 full.
it maybe indeed helps that my loads are on a slower side, who knows.

 

[mac1911]

I run 80s through my 18” heavy barrel with 1/8 they seem to perform well enough at 200 yards.
What I dont know is if they loose any stability at 600
I shot a 600/any rifle any sights match at reading with it a few years back with the nosler 77s my score reflected my average

Like pat Im loading for a specific game that has what a 3moa ten ring? So im looking for predictable groups through out . I have since stepped away from any serious practice or comps and just go to cmp games matches with the old wood and steel guns.
Like to get back to reading a few times before my eyes go to complete shit

 

[PatMcD]

A button-rifled barrel with 3000 rds is toast (I'm assuming it's button-rifled due to its under $300 price).
If you never take it beyond 2-300 yards, it may still shoot decently, but you'll get unexplained fliers at ranges beyond that.

Want a great, inexpensive 20" barrel for an AR? White Oak Armament 1/7 or Bison Armory 1/6.5. Both under $250. Life's too short to scratch your head over accuracy issues with a tube.

 

[paul73]

Want a great, inexpensive 20" barrel for an AR? White Oak Armament 1/7 or Bison Armory 1/6.5. Both under $250. Life's too short to scratch your head over accuracy issues with a tube.

nah, don't want. when this larue goes, next swap will be a bartlein. i like this build, it deserves good stuff in it.
but so far it is working fine. and i may have overstated with 3k, but it is above 2k for sure. but so far, whatever it is, it is still shooting very well, and it shoots same 1/3 moa at 300yds as at 100yds. as long as SD is good, it groups good at 300, as expected. as i do not shoot beyond that - i do not speculate of what ifs beyond that.

 

[paul73]

Like to get back to reading a few times before my eyes go to complete shit

i really want to get that reading membership for access to 600, but no clue where to find the time for all this. the sponsorship stuff is a true pita, especially considering the fact i would probably go there for 600 fun may be 3-4 times a year top.

 

[PatMcD]

You don't need to join if you don't want to; just shoot in one of their many prone matches out to 600 yards.

I've got a Bartlien on my current #1 rifle. It's accurate, but no more so than any WOA barrel I've had in the past. The extra cost buys you longer life (cut rifle instead of button), but the cost per shot is about the same.

 

[mac1911]

i really want to get that reading membership for access to 600, but no clue where to find the time for all this. the sponsorship stuff is a true pita, especially considering the fact i would probably go there for 600 fun may be 3-4 times a year top.

Just go to one of the many matches, the 600 any/any “match” is always fun.
Never had a bad day at reading and everyone is helpful.