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Legalities of self defense prepping.
- Thread starter jmjkd
- Start date
This isn't accurate. Massachusetts has castle doctrine. You have no responsibility or obligation to "flight" if you;re in your home.
I'll pass. who knows what diseases that person could have - and you could get by being exposed to their bodily fluids. Its not indifference to that person's life - its in the interest of the preservation of my own - which is why I found it necessary to shoot in the first place.
I'm not going to shoot the guy to stop him from killing me only to try to save his life and contract hep C in the process...
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The minimum amount of force necessary to alleavate the threat was to shoot him X times. The force was calculated by attempting to apply lesser amounts of force, as described in my prior testimony, and they failed to alleavate the threat. Do you have any further questions or are you finished proving justified self-defense?
Prosecutors will never ask a defendant open-ended questions like that. (that's why they don't call them as witnesses). Prosecutors want to ask direct, yes / no questions of the defenant so they can limit their responses and control what the jury hears/knows.
Although it was quoted the post began by stating that there was an obligation to flight. The castle doctrine was quoted in the context of asking if another law overrides it. I'm only implying that there is no law that overrides the castle law and that there is no obligation to flight - as was implied.
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I recall that this was hashed through on Calguns forums some time ago, and while California is on the other side of the country, there was some good common sense advice that holds true for not just an anti-gun state, but for any incident involving self-defense.
After you've defended yourself with lethal force, say only this: "I was in fear for my life, and I am too shaken up at this time to talk about it until I've spoken to a lawyer."
Never, EVER, discuss what happened with the police on the scene, because you will very likely be under severe emotional stress that will impact your ability to think straight. Anything you say can and will be used against you. The only thing you should say is that you were in fear of life or limb, and that you don't want to talk about it until you've spoken to your attorney.
There's nothing illegal about being smart.
And in today's world you should really have an attorney on retainer per Jose's post.
After you've defended yourself with lethal force, say only this: "I was in fear for my life, and I am too shaken up at this time to talk about it until I've spoken to a lawyer."
Never, EVER, discuss what happened with the police on the scene, because you will very likely be under severe emotional stress that will impact your ability to think straight. Anything you say can and will be used against you. The only thing you should say is that you were in fear of life or limb, and that you don't want to talk about it until you've spoken to your attorney.
There's nothing illegal about being smart.
And in today's world you should really have an attorney on retainer per Jose's post.
OfficerObie59
NES Member
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That goes for any attorney on cross-examination, whether prosecution or defense. And prosecutors don't call defendants as witnesses because they can't--that little thing called the 5th Amendment tends to get in the way.
So putting all the lawyer stuff aside, What are your de-escalating tools?
Here is one I think is effective, hands up showing your palms. This seems to ease people, police as well and if you keep your hands at head height you can quickly cover if and assault starts. So body language and how you posture. And something like, I have no promlem with you!!! Seems to be less of a threat and helps de-escalate.
Here is one I think is effective, hands up showing your palms. This seems to ease people, police as well and if you keep your hands at head height you can quickly cover if and assault starts. So body language and how you posture. And something like, I have no promlem with you!!! Seems to be less of a threat and helps de-escalate.
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Hands up, palms forward at chin level 6-8 inches forward of your face is a standard non-aggressive defensive posture when faced with a likely aggressor who is displaying no weapons. The martial arts studio I attend teaches this posture and teaches defensive response from this posture specifically.
It's actually a better defensive position against an attacker who is within 5' than having your hands down.
It's actually a better defensive position against an attacker who is within 5' than having your hands down.
Hands up, is a great start especially combined with verbal commands and increasing your distance. But here comes the tough part, you have to learn how to smoother the action when the offender attacks and is swinging to take your head off or trying to knock you down.
Because the action comes so fast, you first will cover up (Your shell) asses and decide the best thing to do, in a milla second.. You will either try to escape or control the attacker.
Having a clear objective is critical at this point to know your next step and decide the best way to do it, keeping with the theme of de-escalation and reasonableness. .Freestyle and Greco wrestling techniques, underhooks, body control, sprawls are very effective from the cover position when the attacker gets the jump on you, and they always get the jump on you.
Because the action comes so fast, you first will cover up (Your shell) asses and decide the best thing to do, in a milla second.. You will either try to escape or control the attacker.
Having a clear objective is critical at this point to know your next step and decide the best way to do it, keeping with the theme of de-escalation and reasonableness. .Freestyle and Greco wrestling techniques, underhooks, body control, sprawls are very effective from the cover position when the attacker gets the jump on you, and they always get the jump on you.
Having a clear objective is absolutely critical. Hands out in front with palms outward is what you want witnesses to see before something goes down.
I would like to think an attacker wouldn't get the jump on me, having taken Kenpo for years has prepared my mindset (and body) for most situations. Having an LTC has also helped me "even" the playing field for the bad guys who decide to take it to the extreme.
And call me crazy, but I constantly run scenerios in my mind on a daily basis with whomever I meet on how I would react if they were to "attack" me. Awareness is so criticle. Aware of your surroundings and people along with exit stratagies ect..
One can never be "to prepared". Must be the boy scout in me.
I am really surprised more folks are not chiming in when it comes to the practical application, especially if you don’t know how it is done. On paper, the legal side we had a good amount of folks responding offering Doc's of great info, but the physical act of doing gets little response and that’s what you would need a Lawyer for in the first place. Some maybe putting the cart before the horse.
I understand the males and the ego, but very important for the female as well because of their physical stature and their belief they are to small and weak to protect themselves..
This is a concern and is part of your PREP and shouldn’t be neglected. There should be a connection between the physical act of doing and the representation of counsel.
De-escalating techniques will also be valuable in any SHTF situation because during stress, fear, cold, and hungry times people argue, and tempers flare and you would want the ability to keep order among your own team/group/community without hurting them and weakening the over all group..
Situational awareness
Verbal commands
Cover from the assault
Smoother and control
Joint locks and restraints.
Impact striking
Last resort... Weapon.
This should be the natural progression of force. However S**t happens and you will have to adjust accordingly and be able to justify skipping any of the above.
I understand the males and the ego, but very important for the female as well because of their physical stature and their belief they are to small and weak to protect themselves..
This is a concern and is part of your PREP and shouldn’t be neglected. There should be a connection between the physical act of doing and the representation of counsel.
De-escalating techniques will also be valuable in any SHTF situation because during stress, fear, cold, and hungry times people argue, and tempers flare and you would want the ability to keep order among your own team/group/community without hurting them and weakening the over all group..
Situational awareness
Verbal commands
Cover from the assault
Smoother and control
Joint locks and restraints.
Impact striking
Last resort... Weapon.
This should be the natural progression of force. However S**t happens and you will have to adjust accordingly and be able to justify skipping any of the above.
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Something to avoid when trying to de-escalate and control a person is chokes. There are 2 types.
Wind choke
Blood choke.
Unless you know these inside and out, I would not suggest using a choke to control a situation..
Wind choke
Blood choke.
Unless you know these inside and out, I would not suggest using a choke to control a situation..
Twigg
NES Member
Well, at least for me 99% of what you talk about is pure BS. I have no intention of taking part in a fist fight or grappling with anyone at my age. I live in a free state with a strong self defense law. You live where "self help is discouraged", and guns are frowned upon.
I'll go with Situational awareness and Verbal commands. If I think there's going to be a problem I'll get myself or my family out and provide cover. When the threat becomes imminent I'll use a loud command to leave me/us the f**k alone.
If the threat becomes an imminent danger of grevious bodily harm or death I will not hesitate to use deadly force.
Advocating the use of fisticuffs and wrestling in any self defense situitation when one has better tools is foolhardy and can be a fatal mistake.
Your advice can get someone killed.
This, if I have my pistol with me and someone wants to make trouble the process is avoidance, verbal, then drawing and firing. I'm not screwing around with wrestling with someone and hoping they don't get my firearm away from me in the process or knock me out before I can defend myself.
Besides us in the free state can "brandish" in order to de-escalate a situation, which is nice because if it escalates from there you're in a better position to draw.
D
Deleted member 12999
Avoid physical altercations at all cost:
1. STDs- punch someone in the face, cut hand, cut face, enjoy aids.
2. Grappling- get wrapped up with one dude while his buddy stomps you.
3. Injury- break your hand in fight... good luck controlling firearm should the need arise to transition.
4. Did I mention STDs? I've had ****s try to bite me on the job.... F that.
Sent from my Incredible 2 using Tapatalk 2
1. STDs- punch someone in the face, cut hand, cut face, enjoy aids.
2. Grappling- get wrapped up with one dude while his buddy stomps you.
3. Injury- break your hand in fight... good luck controlling firearm should the need arise to transition.
4. Did I mention STDs? I've had ****s try to bite me on the job.... F that.
Sent from my Incredible 2 using Tapatalk 2
I completely understand why one would not want to use
(primitive skills, empty hand techniques) it’s the same for not wanting to learn “any “ primitive skills, bow drill, shelters, trapping for that matter.. There is no immediate solution with primitive skills. One might opt for the bic lighter or packaged food, a tent or tarp, it’s quick easy and no work involve. BAM done, which is absolutely fine. I get it.
There is primitive, and there is modern. Some folks are just modern guys and don’t want to pussyfoot around with the primitive stuff.
That’s fine but that’s not how the Pro’s see it in regards to primitive empty hand. Every Police academy, basic training, DEA, FBI, Air Marshalls, and the list goes on ALL have a control and restraint portion of there training. I Know believe me.
Why would Military, State Agencies and Feds have the need to what “Mr Twigg calls BS.”
Why? Because it’s their responsibility to, not only be trained and safety certified with a gun but also be trained and safety certified with out a gun. So you see if you are a responsible gun owner, why aren’t you a responsible non-gun owner. That makes no sense if you are a responsible person, why miss a step?
The amount of crime in this country such as assaults, domestic violence, robberies, not using a gun dwarfs the amount of crimes using a gun. And these sudden bursts of attacks will be on you way before you can even think of your weapon or verbal commands or anything where thinking is concerned, It’s all reaction at this point.. I can’t tell you how many times this has been proven with the purest gun owners that anyone can get the jump on them and they will be in a wrestling mach like it or not. If I ask folks to come find out for themselves, some think I may be picking a fist fight. That’s their own fear playing in their head. I have trained thousands of Mil/Law enforcement using proof as a teacher rather then my spoken or written words and the only thing that ever gets hurt in training is the ego. And they walk away saying….WOW I never even saw it coming.
(primitive skills, empty hand techniques) it’s the same for not wanting to learn “any “ primitive skills, bow drill, shelters, trapping for that matter.. There is no immediate solution with primitive skills. One might opt for the bic lighter or packaged food, a tent or tarp, it’s quick easy and no work involve. BAM done, which is absolutely fine. I get it.
There is primitive, and there is modern. Some folks are just modern guys and don’t want to pussyfoot around with the primitive stuff.
That’s fine but that’s not how the Pro’s see it in regards to primitive empty hand. Every Police academy, basic training, DEA, FBI, Air Marshalls, and the list goes on ALL have a control and restraint portion of there training. I Know believe me.
Why would Military, State Agencies and Feds have the need to what “Mr Twigg calls BS.”
Why? Because it’s their responsibility to, not only be trained and safety certified with a gun but also be trained and safety certified with out a gun. So you see if you are a responsible gun owner, why aren’t you a responsible non-gun owner. That makes no sense if you are a responsible person, why miss a step?
The amount of crime in this country such as assaults, domestic violence, robberies, not using a gun dwarfs the amount of crimes using a gun. And these sudden bursts of attacks will be on you way before you can even think of your weapon or verbal commands or anything where thinking is concerned, It’s all reaction at this point.. I can’t tell you how many times this has been proven with the purest gun owners that anyone can get the jump on them and they will be in a wrestling mach like it or not. If I ask folks to come find out for themselves, some think I may be picking a fist fight. That’s their own fear playing in their head. I have trained thousands of Mil/Law enforcement using proof as a teacher rather then my spoken or written words and the only thing that ever gets hurt in training is the ego. And they walk away saying….WOW I never even saw it coming.
The point wasn't not to know fighting skills but if you are in fear for your life don't screw around boxing the guy just end the threat immediately. try to fight a guy that is stronger, more skilled or gets a lucky punch and you are now unconscious and the bad guy has your firearm.
Twigg
NES Member
No, you don't. This isn't a mountain-man forum or a martial arts forum or a primitive skills forum. This is a firearms forum.
You're not even making sense here. "safety certified with out a gun." ??? What the heck are you talking about ?
Being a responsible gun owner means acting in a safe manner and knowing the laws.
Yes, hand to hand skills can be very usefull BUT NHAtHeart summed it up succinctly for me.
It's not having the skillset which I find to be "BS" but rather the audacity YOU have to suggest a need to use a less effective tool in the act of self defense due to a perceived overly zealous prosecution in the aftermath of an incident.
Listen, Massachusetts is one heckofa screwed up place to live but you need to remember a couple if things:
1. People have sucessfully used firearms to defend themselves in the PRM without being arrested.
So stop spreading misinformation.
2. Not everyone here lives in Massachusetts, the name of the forum is "Northeastshooters.com", not "Massachusettsshooters.com".
As the forum grows it attracts more Non-Ma**h***s, who may misinterpret what you post as what is required within their state.
So I'll stand my previous statement:
"Advocating the use of fisticuffs and wrestling in any self defense situitation when one has better tools is foolhardy and can be a fatal mistake.
Your advice can get someone killed. "
Seriously, re-read that last line and stop posting bullshit.
This is a survival forum and survival has many faces. From surviving a cold
wet night in the woods, to no water and power in your home, even fights in a parking lot, to the court battle. All fall under the umbrella of survival.
Some say, “Being a responsible gun owner means acting in a safe manner and knowing the laws.” I agree 100%.
With that said, being a responsible Non gun owner means acting in a safe manner and knowing the law as well... In other words people are responsible for acting in a safe manner and knowing the laws regardless whether they have a gun, or they do not have a gun.
Many are not in Law Enforcement of any kind and may not understand or even know the process one has to go through. In basic or at an Academy there are many courses the student has to complete to get certified or graduate. Courses such as, firearms, defensive tactics, pain compliance, and controlling techniques , hand cuffing, profiling, defensive driving, writing reports and so much more. In addition, accomplishing the same results working in teams, each trained to know what they can and can not do. This is a very very tough job these guys have to do, and just because the average civilian has know idea about such tactics or training, that doesn't mean the tactics don't exist, most just haven't been exposed to it.
I never suggested a need to use a less effective tool in the act of self defense, that's the BS right there.
I suggested “Just having a gun is not the only prep you will need.” the first sentence of the thread.
Mr Twigg take a deep breath and relax, I am not disagreeing with you on the need to have a gun or to use it when it's appropriate. Having the knowledge and the training in many other areas of self defense will give you more options other then shooting someone. You don't want to shoot anyone. The illusion and power one might temporarily have using a gun has devastated the lives of many Soldiers, Law Enforcement and Civilians alike . But it's better then being dead, ya just have to live with it.
This is a horrible part of the topic and I would much rather talk about keeping people alive...Survival.
.
wet night in the woods, to no water and power in your home, even fights in a parking lot, to the court battle. All fall under the umbrella of survival.
Some say, “Being a responsible gun owner means acting in a safe manner and knowing the laws.” I agree 100%.
With that said, being a responsible Non gun owner means acting in a safe manner and knowing the law as well... In other words people are responsible for acting in a safe manner and knowing the laws regardless whether they have a gun, or they do not have a gun.
Many are not in Law Enforcement of any kind and may not understand or even know the process one has to go through. In basic or at an Academy there are many courses the student has to complete to get certified or graduate. Courses such as, firearms, defensive tactics, pain compliance, and controlling techniques , hand cuffing, profiling, defensive driving, writing reports and so much more. In addition, accomplishing the same results working in teams, each trained to know what they can and can not do. This is a very very tough job these guys have to do, and just because the average civilian has know idea about such tactics or training, that doesn't mean the tactics don't exist, most just haven't been exposed to it.
I never suggested a need to use a less effective tool in the act of self defense, that's the BS right there.
I suggested “Just having a gun is not the only prep you will need.” the first sentence of the thread.
Mr Twigg take a deep breath and relax, I am not disagreeing with you on the need to have a gun or to use it when it's appropriate. Having the knowledge and the training in many other areas of self defense will give you more options other then shooting someone. You don't want to shoot anyone. The illusion and power one might temporarily have using a gun has devastated the lives of many Soldiers, Law Enforcement and Civilians alike . But it's better then being dead, ya just have to live with it.
This is a horrible part of the topic and I would much rather talk about keeping people alive...Survival.
.
NHAtHeart
I agree and I know what your saying , it's called One Upmanship. Easier said then done my brother...
But addressing a bigger, stronger man in boxing distance, roughly 2-3 ft away, as you say, you would have no choice but to go wrestler/striker/weapon defense because you would have no time to draw and shoot or do anything else because the action would be in your face and you would be in what's called the mix. And that's a bad place and you should recognize it and you should have an idea what to do because it only gets worse. I'm with ya on thinking “I have to get to my weapon” and that should be the destination if need be. But you have to deal with this big dude trying to take your head off. Drop you hands now and you will get wacked. There's also a good chance you will end up on the deck if this guys that big and the conditions are poor.. Yeah it will S**k.
A rough guideline sometimes used to judge your distance and draw time is, a person within 20 paces and you would not have time to draw and shoot. The stats are not exact but understood. Basically someone sprinting at you. The fastest humans run 10 yards per second.
So if you are 30 or so paces away roughly 7 yards and you feel the need to draw you might have the distance and the time now about 3-4 seconds in ideal circumstances barely. That is a super small window especially if it's an explosive assault. Do the test yourself. see if you can beat the FBI stats.
Twigg
NES Member
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
Who is laughing at who....LOL
Do yourself a favor twigg your from NH right? Check out a guy named Southnarc he comes up your way. I never met the man but folks tell me I would like his stuff it's right up my alley.
Go, you might learn something. I think he vids it, I would love to see that...LOL...hehe.
Now I'll stop....maybe...???
Do yourself a favor twigg your from NH right? Check out a guy named Southnarc he comes up your way. I never met the man but folks tell me I would like his stuff it's right up my alley.
Go, you might learn something. I think he vids it, I would love to see that...LOL...hehe.
Now I'll stop....maybe...???
First, police officer training in self-defense and handgun handling are minimalist to poor at best.
Unarmed Self-Defense Course at the Police Academy is like 4 hours.
The 3 officers responding to Michael Brigs murder in Manchester, NH a few years ago fired a total of 30 rounds at his killer, not 1 round struck. The NIJ conducted a study of police shootings and found police offiers hit their target approximately 5% of the time (1 hit in 20 shots).
Police learn minimal hand to hand self-defense, lock-out and pain compliance because they have a need to respond to situations that don't merit the use of deadly force - like taking someone into custody for public drunkeness, petty theft or etc. Yes, these are great skills for everyone to have, but when presented with a valid grevious bodily harm and/or death threat, feeling a need to respond to less lethal force first can place you and others in the vicinity in greater danger than doing nothing at all.
Training increases your options, and we should all strive to learn as much as possible about everything we can, but advocating "one must attempt to use lesser force first" is likely to get someone killed.
Also, a pace is the distance between the heel strikes while walking - it's approximately 2 1/2 feet so 20 paces is about 50 feet or 16 yards. 30 paces is 25 yards. 7 yards is 8-9 paces.
Sorry, I know you're trying to show off your knowledge and skills, but when you make such glaring errors in your rebuttals, you lose any credibility to what might otherwise be a valid argument.
Unarmed Self-Defense Course at the Police Academy is like 4 hours.
The 3 officers responding to Michael Brigs murder in Manchester, NH a few years ago fired a total of 30 rounds at his killer, not 1 round struck. The NIJ conducted a study of police shootings and found police offiers hit their target approximately 5% of the time (1 hit in 20 shots).
Police learn minimal hand to hand self-defense, lock-out and pain compliance because they have a need to respond to situations that don't merit the use of deadly force - like taking someone into custody for public drunkeness, petty theft or etc. Yes, these are great skills for everyone to have, but when presented with a valid grevious bodily harm and/or death threat, feeling a need to respond to less lethal force first can place you and others in the vicinity in greater danger than doing nothing at all.
Training increases your options, and we should all strive to learn as much as possible about everything we can, but advocating "one must attempt to use lesser force first" is likely to get someone killed.
Also, a pace is the distance between the heel strikes while walking - it's approximately 2 1/2 feet so 20 paces is about 50 feet or 16 yards. 30 paces is 25 yards. 7 yards is 8-9 paces.
Sorry, I know you're trying to show off your knowledge and skills, but when you make such glaring errors in your rebuttals, you lose any credibility to what might otherwise be a valid argument.
Yup the internet sucks you can't get the whole story. That's why you have to test. Not challenge...test.
Shade believe or not I post to help people, I have already built a reputation in the industry. People ask me 'Why do you keep going to that forum and taking all that BS” I do it because there are lots of folks who never post but e-mail and thank me for posting. If it were not for them I would be gone.
So here we go.
Twigg Here is the info for southnarc in case you never heard of this guy, you should have, NES has brought him back for years now. Ask around, folks will know him.you support NES right?
SOUTHNARC - SEPTEMBER 21-23 SHIVWORKS ECQC.* Pelham Fish & Game Club, starting at 8:00 AM
From what I hear the course is physical W/ realistic scenarios. Maybe we can hook up with southnarc, compare notes and “test” to see what is truly valid or BS.
If you can't make southnarc .hehehe I understand NES is bringing back Micheal Janich. Who is also well known in the business. Tell him you were discussing topics with me Joe Maffei and what a joke I am.hehehehe let me know what he says... Sweat, blood and dirt. What a bonding tool.
Shade you are welcome as well. NES offers these courses to the public and I'm sure they won't refuse the $$$.
What do ya say guys we in??? Up for the task???
Shade believe or not I post to help people, I have already built a reputation in the industry. People ask me 'Why do you keep going to that forum and taking all that BS” I do it because there are lots of folks who never post but e-mail and thank me for posting. If it were not for them I would be gone.
So here we go.
Twigg Here is the info for southnarc in case you never heard of this guy, you should have, NES has brought him back for years now. Ask around, folks will know him.you support NES right?
SOUTHNARC - SEPTEMBER 21-23 SHIVWORKS ECQC.* Pelham Fish & Game Club, starting at 8:00 AM
From what I hear the course is physical W/ realistic scenarios. Maybe we can hook up with southnarc, compare notes and “test” to see what is truly valid or BS.
If you can't make southnarc .hehehe I understand NES is bringing back Micheal Janich. Who is also well known in the business. Tell him you were discussing topics with me Joe Maffei and what a joke I am.hehehehe let me know what he says...
Sweat, blood and dirt. What a bonding tool.Shade you are welcome as well. NES offers these courses to the public and I'm sure they won't refuse the $$$.
What do ya say guys we in??? Up for the task???
