I’m getting a lot of conflicting info. I’m moving to NH Monday. The licensing officer in my town said that he was told by the FRB that if he does not deactivate the license (which he indicated to me he would not), it will remain valid even after my move until it expires. I called the FRB today and they told me the same thing. I asked for it in an email and he declined. I asked my LO for that info in an email, and he provided a detailed email, that he had received this directive himself from the FRB on multiple occasions. I spoke with a couple of 2A attorneys, and they also assured me that it is completely defendable in court. Other individuals that I’ve spoken to have said explicitly not to go by this directive, and that it is inaccurate. I’m posting here for opinions, as I do not want to commit a crime, but do not want to lose my ability to carry while waiting for my non residence license.
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LTC status after moving out of state
- Thread starter CTR1421
- Start date
will the license show as valid in the system?
From all recent accounts, yes.
Is there a definitive published legal opinion or case law you can point to that says your resident permit is still valid to CCW after you have made the statutorily required notification that you have moved out of state?
None that I am aware of.
Concealed means concealed, proceed at your own peril.
The fact the FRB is unwilling to put their name on paper that would give you justified reliance as a defense should give you reason to proceed with all due caution
From all recent accounts, yes.
Is there a definitive published legal opinion or case law you can point to that says your resident permit is still valid to CCW after you have made the statutorily required notification that you have moved out of state?
None that I am aware of.
Concealed means concealed, proceed at your own peril.
The fact the FRB is unwilling to put their name on paper that would give you justified reliance as a defense should give you reason to proceed with all due caution
Everyone says this, however, everyone that says this can never actually point to where it says this in MGL, and hence that "interpretation" is based purely on deductive legal reasoning, which IMO doesn't work here. Nobody can point to anyone who ever got screwed by this, either. This has only ever been "EOPS regulatory Fiat" and not actually represented by the printed law. His license may be non renewable, but his residency status changing does not render a currently issued license invalid, IMO.
If FRB is actually telling people "its valid until it expires" then who is going to argue with that? Some anecdotal data supports this, too. There are people here who have ratted themselves out with the COA and then looked up their LTC months after their move, and their old LTC still validates in the EFA10 system...
namedpipes
NES Member
I'm sure Len will clarify and amplify, but
1) Do comply with the requirement to notify COA
2) Do KEEP your MA LTC in your wallet in case you should ever stray back to MA on a day trip
Something about crime vs civil infraction if you're "busted" in MA with a gun.
It's talked about in numerous threads here...
1) Do comply with the requirement to notify COA
2) Do KEEP your MA LTC in your wallet in case you should ever stray back to MA on a day trip
Something about crime vs civil infraction if you're "busted" in MA with a gun.
It's talked about in numerous threads here...
I’m sure he will be shortly and I think I know what he’ll say.
I’ll say this. You cannot carry 2 drivers licenses of different states. That’s illegal and a felony at that.
I don’t know what happens if you ever need to show your LTC and then are asked for ID. Never happened to me.
No such thing as it being illegal to carry in MA with A resident LTC when you’re not a resident of MA?
I don’t know but I suspect that’d be a big no.
Please come back to the class when you find the part of MGL that says this is illegal, or that an EXISTING issued LTC is magically rendered invalid if someone suddenly ceases to be a resident. We're all ears and would love to see it. Again, it is clear to me that the license isn't renewable, (because licenses can only be issued to residents or business owners) but that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about a license that was issued while someone was a resident of the commonwealth. The old EOPS position was always that "someone not being a resident anymore, via gnomish mysticism, suddenly invalidates their license" but the written law has never solidly backed up that assertion in any meaningful way. A lot of people derive this opinion from the regulatory authority granted to EOPS etc in interpreting the law, but IMHO that derivative interpretation has always been a "whole cloth" type thing like healeyban.
I always took the lack of deactivation after address change notification as more of a laziness thing as opposed to an implicit or explicit indication that the license remained valid.
When applying for a non-res while my resident license was still "active" they sure as heck didn't say, "oh, your resident license is still good until it expires" despite the fact you include your current LTC number on your application and they undoubtedly have your data. So, to me, the fact it's still "active" in the system doesn't really mean anything as you can apparently have multiple "active" LTCs by this reasoning.
It may be a loophole; it may be that it doesn't expire due to the legal construction of the laws, but they do not want to advertise this fact. Who knows without a test case or more explicit guidance? Regardless, a recently held/dated resident LTC that "washes" you may be a desirable thing to have when applying for a non-res. I'd say it's most likely just a legal gap. Sooner or later, though, you'll need a non-res anyway if you want the "perks."
When applying for a non-res while my resident license was still "active" they sure as heck didn't say, "oh, your resident license is still good until it expires" despite the fact you include your current LTC number on your application and they undoubtedly have your data. So, to me, the fact it's still "active" in the system doesn't really mean anything as you can apparently have multiple "active" LTCs by this reasoning.
It may be a loophole; it may be that it doesn't expire due to the legal construction of the laws, but they do not want to advertise this fact. Who knows without a test case or more explicit guidance? Regardless, a recently held/dated resident LTC that "washes" you may be a desirable thing to have when applying for a non-res. I'd say it's most likely just a legal gap. Sooner or later, though, you'll need a non-res anyway if you want the "perks."
I dunno, but passing a license validation check seems pretty "explicit" to me.
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
None of the guys I know that moved out ever said "oh, one day it was invalid or threw an error" but then again after the first time they probably never bothered to check it, either. I think we had someone here who checked like 3 months after he notified, still valid. But didn't bother checking after that.
I know what your saying.
But if you got jammed up with a gun in MA as a NH resident and I was the judge...
I’d ask:
are you a NH resident. - yes
Do you have a non resident permit for that gun - no but I have a resident license.
that license is for residents. You admit you’re not a resident. You have no applied for, not paid the tax for the non resident license.
guilty. It’s simple logic to me.
but then the courts aren’t logical nor are the gun laws.
I'm 99% sure that the validation check system just queries a database and probably checks the row for the supplied license # and then either an active bit or an expiration date and compares to current date/time (or something similar). Given that there's no acknowledgement or update of any kind that indicates you changed your address (that I am aware of), I'd say it's implicit that the license is active. The FRB has to take some action to invalidate the license and either can't or chooses not to, thereby leaving it de facto active.I dunno, but passing a license validation check seems pretty "explicit" to me.
In other words, it's the common government inaction/neglect that keeps it active on the validation checker rather than an intentional act. It's clear there's no one going through on change of address filings manually updating the db. It's a tacit approval, akin to NFA paperwork where you "notify" your local officer.
Legally, I suspect the end result would be the same. Government indifference to disabling the license perhaps could be used in a defense. They may not update the db simply because of the "loophole" where MGL doesn't auto deactivate the license, so they have no standing to do so. Either way, absent some deliberate action confirming the license is still good, it seems like a loophole where there is no case law (although given the absence of something for prosecution to rest their hat on, it may be difficult to prosecute).
I'd also be curious to what degree the checker has legal weight. In other words, if there's any kind of disclaimers, etc. Sort of like how those pens people use on $20 bills to check if they're counterfeit are not legally indicative of whether or not the $20 bill you have is legit.
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You said there isn’t a law that addresses it. There is a lack of law. Therefore, if you’re arrested and brought before a judge I don’t see how my hypothetical wouldn’t be accurate.
not to be too pedantic, but the law does statethat if a person from another state wants to carry gun in MA, they must have a non resident LTC. Without it, they’re breaking the law.
Now, my LTC is expired. I know I can’t carry in MA. But I’m also under the understanding that because of having an expired LTC, if I get caught with a gun in MA, it’s just a misdemeanor, a fine, and a reprimand to go get a non resident LTC.
id also be very wary of believing the MA database on which licenses are active. I doubt that’s a defense in court.
cockpitbob
NES Member
To me the issue isn't if I would win in court or not. If you get stopped by an anti2A cop who's in a bad mood, what are the chances you'll get cuffed, stuffed and spend thousand$ to stay out of jail?
Let's not forget that the law allows for multiple residencies WRT firearms, but not for automobiles. You can have multiple Resident LTCs simultaneously.
How do I know? My brother maintains MA and FL. Why? Because he resides in both.
How do I know? My brother maintains MA and FL. Why? Because he resides in both.
No, it doesn't, but ill play along...
What you're suggesting with your hypothesis is that it's fine for a judge to invent law out of whole cloth. You have fun with that. Show me the law. Oh, you can't- because it doesn't exist.
I guess you can look at it this way. If you are caught carrying a firearm in Mass with that Mass LTC and you produce a NH driver's license then do you think there will be a problem?
Some cops barely know the laws as they pertain to Mass Residents with a Mass LTC. Now you are going to potentially have a cop on the side of the road the ability to make a decision regarding a law he/she probably knows nothing about for your Mass Resident LTC and your Out of State Driver's license proving you are not a Mass resident?
I do not want to be that test case.
The fact that you cannot get anything in writing from the state is a huge concern and seemingly very telling.
So if you are caught, charged and convicted what do you lose? Do you lose your ability to ever purchase and own another firearm in every state in the union?
That is how I would be thinking about it.
It isn't worth playing these little legal games with a state that is clearly out to abolish 2A.
You got out. Be thankful for that and enjoy your new found freedom to our north.
When I get out I am not looking back and want nothing to do with this state.
Some cops barely know the laws as they pertain to Mass Residents with a Mass LTC. Now you are going to potentially have a cop on the side of the road the ability to make a decision regarding a law he/she probably knows nothing about for your Mass Resident LTC and your Out of State Driver's license proving you are not a Mass resident?
I do not want to be that test case.
The fact that you cannot get anything in writing from the state is a huge concern and seemingly very telling.
So if you are caught, charged and convicted what do you lose? Do you lose your ability to ever purchase and own another firearm in every state in the union?
That is how I would be thinking about it.
It isn't worth playing these little legal games with a state that is clearly out to abolish 2A.
You got out. Be thankful for that and enjoy your new found freedom to our north.
When I get out I am not looking back and want nothing to do with this state.
cstockwell
NES Member
That is a different scenario because FL does not issue resident or non-resident licenses ONLY a firearms license. If he still has his primary residence in MA with a MA DL then he should have a MA resident LTC. He can purchase guns in FL using his FL residency as well. If he has his primary residence in FL and no longer has voting rights etc in MA then he can only get a renewed resident LTC with MA if he owns a business in MA. If not he should be applying for a non-res.
edit- I will be meeting with a local PD chief later this afternoon and will check with him and the licensing officer to get clarification on the "residential address" portion of the resident MA LTC application.
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People with LTC that are residents have been arrested or detained, and/or lost licenses for "things" far "lesser" than what we're discussing here (ask the pizza guy from Dedham, or the attorney whose suit blew open in Springfield)... or nearly any guy that's had a bogus 209A pulled on them.. so I think that point is pretty much moot- basically everybody is potentially "Dead Man Walking" In this state that has an LTC, and doesn't have badge immunity in the face of the "bad cop", etc. Realistically if somebody fears the "bad cop" that much they shouldn't own or bring guns in the state at all.... too much risk. Hell we had a guy here at one point that almost had his LTC revoked because he wrote something critical of the police chief in another town outside of his residence, on social media..... shit chief whined to his issuing authority abd tried to get his license pulled.
Everyone has to do their own personal risk assessment with regards to these issues and Mass. Bullshit. (TM). You you have to make the Command Decision as to whether or not you're going to prostrate yourself in front of the state, or be mindlessly obesiant to laws/authority that do not exist...
greencobra
NES Member
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that would have been enough for me but yet you opened that nes can of worms.
Just be aware that there is another way that "Resident" LTC can even have the "wrong" address on them... what do you think a guy with a business LTC does? It looks exactly the same as the OP's LTC does... There's clearly no residency requirement for that one, even for issuance.
Also dual residency is completely legal in Massachusetts as far as guns are concerned... there are a whole number of people who have vacation properties here with resident LTC. These people all likely have "foreign" drivers licenses and "foreign" tagged cars and don't have any problems here.... imagine that! It's pretty amazing that there aren't a bunch of old guys in prison right now because they had have an address mismatch on their LTC... or maybe it's not so much amazing because it was never really a problem to begin with.
Then again, This discussion is epitome of how f***ed up this state is... it causes people to invent irrational enforcement phantasms to be afraid that will keep them awake at night.... and you can't unscare them because every now and then something will happen to validate that type of thinking...
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FRB tries to be helpful but they aren't attorneys. Over the years they have given out illegal info many times, unknowingly. It won't work as a defense however.
I've had a LTC since 1976 and have never been asked to see my LTC except at a gun shop or doing a FTF. Likelihood of this happening is very close to zero and even if so, you can legitimately have different addresses. My Wife and I have had resident LTC and P/R for more than a year now, each has a different address plus NH DLs as well. Both MA and NH police chiefs know that we have both houses and we are well within the law.
MSP Lt. Al Zani was in charge of licensing dealers/instructors/etc. for the state for a number of years. I spoke to him about my situation some time before he retired (end of 2019) and he lamented that PDs are lazy and not requesting FRB to administratively expire LTCs due to out of state move notifications. He told me that PDs are supposed to request this of FRB once they are notified, however many don't bother to do so, thus they show as active in the system. On a related issue, the FRB Director told me years ago that FRB will not administratively expire any LTC/FID unless requested to do so by the issuing department. Thus, the situation we are discussing.
MGL states who is eligible to apply for a LTC and where they apply. However, there is NO MGL (that I'm aware of) the specifies that a LTC/FID expires automatically upon notification of an out of state move. AFAIK, there has never been any case law on it as well (maybe our lawyers can verify/deny this?). So it is accepted practice, but not documented anywhere in the legal system. So a real Mass gun law savvy lawyer can probably get a charge dropped (if ever one were to be charged - I know it isn't criminal, but I've seen/testified in a case where they charged someone criminally anyway), but the cost of that legal representation is still going to be high $$$.
Cops have confiscated perfectly legal guns and arrested people for non-crimes as well. It happens and could happen to anyone at any time. And yes, it will oftentimes cost the innocent much $$$ to get justice and even then it may cost them their job/career as well.
WRONG! Glidden for more years than I can count has counseled police chiefs/LOs to issue part-time resident resident LTCs as allowed by law. Some chiefs won't but there is nothing legally to prevent a chief from doing this. As long as a person maintains a residence in MA (lease or deed), they are legally entitled to a resident LTC. Due to "chief's discretion", the chief can decide to go along or not and the courts will back him either way.
This was precisely my suspicion; they're "supposed to" but depts. either don't have the resources or the will to do so unless it's some exceptional case. As a result, the license remains showing as valid.
IPSC_DRL
NES Member
Well that settles it! We all know that the average local cop is a trusted authority concerning firearms law.
