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MA H.3081/H.3610 Extreme Risk Protective Orders (ERPO) - Linsky Bill

From GOAL:

GOAL Alert – Please Call Your State Legislators Today – Urge Them Not Too Support H.3610 and H.3081 – “Extreme Risk Protection Order” (ERPO) Bills.

ERPO Legislation Very Cruel and Extremely Dangerous.

The Massachusetts Legislature is back in session today. They will be in formal session starting on Wednesday 2/28/18 and it is highly likely that they will fast track one of the two “ERPO” bills in an attempt to get it to the Governor’s desk very soon.

It is our opinion that both of the “ERPO” bills, H.3610, filed by Rep. Marjorie Decker, and H.3081, filed by Rep. David Linsky are both very cruel to the individual and his/her civil rights and extremely dangerous to the general public.

If passed, either of the proposed bills would allow for cruel and extremely dangerous treatment of people who may or may not have severe mental health issues. It is extraordinarily unfair for the state to treat a person who may going through a temporary crisis in the same manner as a person that may be so mentally ill that he or she is a potential mass murderer.

To make matters worse, any person named in one of these orders would be deprived of their civil rights. The state would haul them into court and fast track seizure of any firearms they legally own. Following the court appearance and firearms seizure, they would be set free, back into society with no provision of medical help, and no structured support system.
Taking points, please use the below talking points when discussing these bills with your legislators.

First, “Chief’s Discretion”. The Massachusetts Chief’s of Police Association (MCOPA) has fought for decades to keep a discretionary clause as part of the licensing process in MA. This is called “Chief’s Discretion”, they have always argued that they know their town best and can make the best decisions regarding who should, or shouldn’t be able to legally own firearms. It should be noted that a chief can use the discretionary clause to deny or revoke a license for any reason, with no standards.

Second, “Section 12”. This begins with a wellness check by a local police officer. Should an officer, after said wellness check decides that a person might have mental health issues, they can begin the Section 12 process. This enables them to get a person mental health care in a facility for at least 72 hours. After 72 hours of observation medical professionals would decide the best course of action for their patient. Should a person be involuntarily held after this period, it triggers automatic revocation of any valid firearms license and seizure of firearms legally owned.

Third, 209A Restraining order. Should a person pose a threat to another individual, that person can file a 209A restraining order in court. This process requires the petitioner to prove that the plaintiff poses a threat. If proof is provided, it then fast tracks seizure of all legally owned firearms, ammunition, etc.

Fourth: Suicide prevention. One of the driving points of these proposals is supposedly to prevent suicides, which is a very complex issue. However, there is nothing in these bills that provides assistance or support to the individual or their family. The proposal only seeks to make their problems public, remove one of their civil rights and then send them home.

If part of these proposals is to prevent and address the epidemic of suicides, we need a much more compassionate and comprehensive approach. Certainly we need a system that does not punish those in need that come forward. Such treatment will only further deter people from seeking help and may cause a situation to become worse.

Fifth – Identifying dangerous individuals. Another motive of these bills is to enable the state to identify a potential mass murderer before they commit a crime. What is strikingly dangerous is that after the state identifies these potential killers among us – they are set free! If the state is identifying people who present such an extreme public safety risk, why are they setting them free, and why are they only taking away their ability to legally own or possess guns?

Sixth – “Section 35”. This is a substance abuse prevention version of “Section 12”. Massachusetts General Laws Chapter 123, sec 35 permits the courts to involuntarily commit someone who has an alcohol or substance use disorder and there is a likelihood of serious harm as a result of his/her alcohol or substance use. Such a commitment shall be for the purpose of inpatient care of a person with an alcohol or substance use disorder in a facility. Once again, this process provides for qualified medical care of a person who needs help, instead of just dragging them to court, likely exacerbating the problem.

If a court has determined that a person is an “extreme danger to society”, are we ok with them practicing medicine, driving a school bus, flying a plane, renting a truck or resuming active duty in the military? The answer should be resoundingly “NO”, yet this legislation does nothing to address the numerous other means a dangerous person could cause harm. If the public is going to buy into this method of identifying dangerous people, then they should demand the bill be expanded to include the removal of all professional licenses or certificates that would allow a dangerous person to present a public safety risk.

Take action – Oppose ERPO!

Today, please call your state legislators at the Massachusetts State House, 617-722-2000 (click here to look up your legislator’s direct phone number). Please ask your legislator to vehemently oppose H.3610 and H.3081. These are very cruel and dangerous proposals. Ask your legislators to show compassion for those in need of counseling and support and to keep dangerous killers off the streets and away from children and families! Harming good people and setting potential killers loose is not an answer, it is a tremendous problem.

Please contact your legislators in this order. Call or go meet them, write a letter, send and email. If you call or meet, please follow this up with an email or letter, or better, bring a written statement with you to leave after your meeting concludes.

For more information, you can also read our statement about this legislation here.
 
Third, 209A Restraining order. Should a person pose a threat to another individual, that person can file a 209A restraining order in court. This process requires the petitioner to prove that the plaintiff poses a threat. If proof is provided, it then fast tracks seizure of all legally owned firearms, ammunition, etc.

Since when? Whoever wrote this needs to read C. 209A and revise this statement.

MGL C. 209A does NOT require any proof. Merely saying "I feel threatened" means a 209A RO is issued ex parte, the law in MA requires immediate suspension/revocation of LTC and confiscation. Then within 10 days the victim of the 209A gets to face a judge and try to convince him/her that it was unfounded (good luck with that). Meanwhile even if the victim of the RO succeeds, his guns are long gone to the infamous bonded warehouse and many chiefs will refuse to return the LTC which means the person can not possess anything.

If you want to make a case against these bills, at least have the facts straight.
 
I also don't want to be critical, because I appreciate the important work being done with very little thanks. However, I felt the alert's writing style could have been improved as well. Did the "very cruel" language resonate with anyone? As Len mentioned, a focus on lack of due process might have been more appropriate.

For example:
"The state would haul them into court and fast track seizure of any firearms they legally own. Following the court appearance and firearms seizure, they would be set free".

This actually proposes to seize firearms before even hauling someone into court. A judge can issue ex parte orders just from hearing one side.

Again, not trying to shit on anyone. I probably couldn't do better, which is why I have others help me edit my professional writing.
 
MGL C. 209A:

How can such an order be issued???
If a person is really so dangerous he should be arrested and put in jail.
"I feel threatened"???
That's all it takes?

What how do the police know where to find all those guns?
Do you not have the right to remain silent?

IF you MUST say where all the guns are - how the heck can the police collect them all?

I have a friend with guns buried in 4 different states. Some under concrete. Some under water.
It could take a team of back hoe operators and another team with jack hammers and another team with ground penetrating radar to find some 30+ guns.

This could take months to accomplish.

In the mean time, is the subject of the order free? Will the police keep him in custody for a month while all these folks dig stuff up?

God forbid he gets into an argument with his wife.
 
MGL C. 209A:

Do you not have the right to remain silent?

A paste eating window licker playing dress-up in black robes scrawled a ruling in MA (Godfrey v. Wellesley) which dictates one has a right to the 5th amendment or the 2nd amendment but not both. Taking the 5th is enough to be 'unsuitable' to LEO the lion lording over you.

Silly sheep, you thought you had natural rights under the queen's heel?
 
Let's suppose someone has one of the ex parte orders issued against them. The cops are supposed to serve the order, and the person is required to turn over their guns and ammunition.

Well... how?
Option 1: The cops show up at the door and say "oh hi, we have this order to take your guns. Go get your guns and give them to us while we wait here".
Option 2: The cops show up at the door and grab you while other cops enter your house and take. Did they also have a search warrant? What if they "notice" something while taking the guns? What if all the guns are not there? "Oh, I lent that to my friend". They're just going to take your word for that and let you go, or are they going to haul you in for failing to comply immediately?

This whole thing won't work.
 
Let's suppose someone has one of the ex parte orders issued against them. The cops are supposed to serve the order, and the person is required to turn over their guns and ammunition.

Well... how?
Option 1: The cops show up at the door and say "oh hi, we have this order to take your guns. Go get your guns and give them to us while we wait here".
Option 2: The cops show up at the door and grab you while other cops enter your house and take. Did they also have a search warrant? What if they "notice" something while taking the guns? What if all the guns are not there? "Oh, I lent that to my friend". They're just going to take your word for that and let you go, or are they going to haul you in for failing to comply immediately?

This whole thing won't work.
What if it's dark out and the ground is frozen?
Are the cops going to force you to dig up the back 40 to find all your buried AR15's?
What if you can't remember under what trees all those guns are buried?

Are the cops going to keep you in jail until Spring when the ground thaws?

What about all the guns buried in other states???

ROAD TRIP!!!
 
From GOAL:

GOAL Alert – Please Call Your State Legislators Today – Urge Them Not Too Support H.3610 and H.3081 – “Extreme Risk Protection Order” (ERPO) Bills.

ERPO Legislation Very Cruel and Extremely Dangerous.
I'm starting to think GOAL is the kiss of death for RKBA in MA.
 
Let's suppose someone has one of the ex parte orders issued against them. The cops are supposed to serve the order, and the person is required to turn over their guns and ammunition.
Well... how?
Option 1: The cops show up at the door and say "oh hi, we have this order to take your guns. Go get your guns and give them to us while we wait here".
Option 2: The cops show up at the door and grab you while other cops enter your house and take. Did they also have a search warrant? What if they "notice" something while taking the guns? What if all the guns are not there? "Oh, I lent that to my friend". They're just going to take your word for that and let you go, or are they going to haul you in for failing to comply immediately?
This whole thing won't work.

There is a 67 page manual instructing cops on how to handle 209A's. If ERPO is passed, it will have a 98 page manual.
The cop will ask you for your firearms. Your wife or live in girl friend can give them permission to search. The proposed regulation allows you 8 hours to turn them in. Cops will then obtain a warrant. Notification of ex parte ERPO will be sent to local PD, who will immediately pull your license as unsuitable.
Your wife, who may have requested the ERPO, will notify PD if you hold a firearm back. Basically your shooting days are over.
 
I'm starting to think GOAL is the kiss of death for RKBA in MA.

According to GOAL. the bills are "are both very cruel to the individual and his/her civil rights and extremely dangerous to the general public."
This does not sound like a successful strategy. CT already had ERPO regs. ERPO bill is in RI legislature & Gov has already signed an executive order, VT Gov is trying to fast track an ERPO bill, MA is selling it as an "anti-suicide" bill.

GOAL needs to work with us.
 
I'm afraid we can't stop this one. With three other NE states either having this or getting this, Massachusetts won't want to be left out. And with us badly outnumbered by libtard state reps, senators and those afraid to oppose them. And a spineless governor. Spoke to a State Rep who is a Dem of course, usually pretty reasonable. But he'll vote the party line. He says he's never seen the legislature this far left .
 
Anyone with an ear on the MA statehouse know if anything is happening on this? Or will they emerge with a surprise vote one day and we won't know until then?

It seems a wave of these things are sweeping the country. Several states already have it. RI is about to get it. Rubio wants it in Florida. Trump wants it nationally. At a certain point, this is going to become as inevitable as the bump stock ban.

That said, if this thing ever becomes inevitable, is there anything we can push to make it not as much of a shit sandwich? On the top of my list:

- This should replace CLEO discretion. Licenses should be shall-issue since there would now be a process to go to court if someone is dangerous.
- There shall be a presumption of "not crazy" at a court hearing - the burden of proof shall be on the court to prove its case. [Current language says the burden of proof is on you to prove that you're not dangerous/crazy].
- There shall be no bonded-warehouse storage, no storage fees, etc.
- Something to ensure that a one time ERPO doesn't become a de-facto lifetime loss of LTC, because we know that will be the case in many towns.
- How about some friggen reciprocity at least with our neighbor states with the same stupid rules?
 
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Decent article about the ERPO bills.

Lawmakers mull 'red flag' gun bill after Florida shooting

Reading through, I think the bolded parts are the only way this will be defeated [bolding mine]:


Some contend that laws already in place in Massachusetts render the bill unnecessary, or, at best, duplicative. Gov. Charlie Baker noted his state is among the few that give local police chiefs discretion over the granting of licenses to carry firearms to individuals within their communities, and the ability to suspend those licenses if circumstances change.

“We should always be interested in considering other alternatives as well,” Baker told reporters this past week. “But I think the fact that Massachusetts is one of the few states where you have to work this process through your local police chief has given us a real leg up on gun safety and it shows up on our statistics.”

State law also permits weapons to be confiscated upon issuance by a court of a domestic violence restraining order. But such protections don’t always account for sudden and dramatic changes in behavior, Decker contends.
...
Democratic House Speaker Robert DeLeo has also suggested that current procedures might accomplish the same objectives as the bill, though neither DeLeo nor Baker has taken a firm stance against it.
 
I wonder if Deleo is holding off support because of a concern that creating ERPOs could possibly lead to a lawsuit which not only eliminates them, but also strikes down "may issue". Also Linsky is a weirdo idiot and rushing to adopt his legislation is probably known to be potentially disastrous without sufficient due diligence. Or Deleo is waiting for his check from Bloomberg and WANTS TO GET PAID.
 
The political uses of this bill are endless....Peeps' wake the eff up! This his tyranny ! 209A's have been and are are a petitioners/lawyers dream and the first shot fired in a contentious divorce. Anyone familiar with 'Fathers Rights' will know fully what I'm saying.
 
No. Wrong for the same reason the sobbing high school girl all over the news this morning ("The FL legislature owns the next mass shooting") is wrong.

The person doing the action owns the crime. May have some added conspirators, but the person who does it is the one responsible, not 3rd parties nor inanimate objects.
Unless it is done with a gun! The media will blame the stabler, the bomber, or the driver but not the shooter.
 
Interesting... debate by email. The legislature can do this, but if a town board does it then it's illegal.
There Is A Gun Control Debate On Beacon Hill, But It's Taking Place Via Email

Relevant Excerpt:
Lombardo suggested that police have the authority to "on the spot remove a firearm license and firearms from individuals that pose a threat."

Linsky responded in another email that under current law, police can only revoke a firearm license, but cannot seize a weapon without a search warrant.

Rep. Randy Hunt (R-Sandwich) then stepped in to debate, writing that police must evaluate a licence holders' suitability for a firearm when granting the license and throughout the term of the license. Hunt also defended the current police-based "red flag" system because anyone, not just a family member or close associate as defined in a bill Linsky sponsored, can approach police with concerns.

"There is no requirement to be a family member, even as broadly as you have defined that in your bill. A next-door neighbor can see a threatening Facebook post and report that information to a chief of police. And, the chief of police can use that along with other evidence in determining whether a licensee has become unsuitable to possess firearms," Hunt wrote.

"I should be clear that this is not the practice in many other states. I fully believe that a shooter, such as the one in Parkland, Florida, would not have been in possession of any firearm had the same circumstances occurred in Massachusetts," Hunt wrote.

Hunt argued that requiring family members to fill out an affidavit in court before an order could be issued slows down the process.

"That same person can go directly to a police chief and achieve the same result in less time," Hunt wrote. Linsky responded that the protective order system would work in addition to the current system, giving family members a way to contact authorities without having to go through the police.

In an op-ed he wrote for the Cape Cod Times, Hunt defended the current system and wrote that the state's hands are not tied by current law, but also agreed that a court-based extreme risk law may be called for.

In an interview with WGBH News this week, Linsky added that he sees a big loophole in the state's current police-based red flag reporting system.

"When the police suspend or revoke an individual's license to carry or FID card, the individual gets to keep his or her firearms if they file an appeal of that suspension," he said.
It's interesting, the best debates against ERPO is that CLEO suitability is faster and more powerful without the hindrance of due process. This argument is being made by our republican representatives. Frankly I'd rather have shall-issue unrestricted LTCs and the due process of a court hearing.
 
Interesting... debate by email. The legislature can do this, but if a town board does it then it's illegal.
There Is A Gun Control Debate On Beacon Hill, But It's Taking Place Via Email

Relevant Excerpt:

It's interesting, the best debates against ERPO is that CLEO suitability is faster and more powerful without the hindrance of due process. This argument is being made by our republican representatives. Frankly I'd rather have shall-issue unrestricted LTCs and the due process of a court hearing.

Wait... is Linksy actually saying that police not being allowed to break into someone's home and steal their shit without a warrant is a problem? Has this goatf***ing a**h*** ever read the bill of rights?
 
Wait... is Linksy actually saying that police not being allowed to break into someone's home and steal their shit without a warrant is a problem? Has this goatf***ing a**h*** ever read the bill of rights?

Don't make the mistake of thinking he's stupid just because he has a radical agenda. I've heard him accurately summarize Heller and McDonald and then go on to explain how he proposes things just to see what kind of reaction he can get or what can he push through anyway.

IMO, the tidal wave of nationals support for ERPO, even from republicans and places like the National Review, makes this kind of thing almost a sure passage throughout the country. Giving Linsky a second victory after bump stocks (even though his language wasn't used) let's him pile on some credibility. Previously nobody took him seriously and the useless bills he filed every year went nowhere. This is why I think we'd almost be better off going for our own ERPO bill and removing suitability - deny Linsky the victory.
 
Interesting... debate by email. The legislature can do this, but if a town board does it then it's illegal.
There Is A Gun Control Debate On Beacon Hill, But It's Taking Place Via Email

Relevant Excerpt:

It's interesting, the best debates against ERPO is that CLEO suitability is faster and more powerful without the hindrance of due process. This argument is being made by our republican representatives. Frankly I'd rather have shall-issue unrestricted LTCs and the due process of a court hearing.

Arguments are made at that moment in time. The suitability clause isn't up for a change. They will use its existence to stop ERPO. I agree that suitability should go away too, but I'm not concerned that they are using its existence for the sake of the argument.
 
Heard Linsky speak tonight. This is not the end, he's after all guns, this is just a step, his words.

We need to be very afraid. MDA, Linsky, et all are organizing and motivated they are coming for all guns. I went to an MDA event tonight and walked out scared.

We need to put aside our minor differences and focus on protecting our 2a rights, we need what are called fudds to join us. We are divided, they are not. If we don't get our shit together they will crush us.

Go to some of the oposition event, sit, listen, learn. Don't rant, just learn, and bring that information of their tactics back to us.

Be afraid, be very afraid.
 
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