MA H.3081/H.3610 Extreme Risk Protective Orders (ERPO) - Linsky Bill

[Dadstoys]

National Review article supporting these things:
NRA's Gun Violence Restraining Order Support: A Good Move | National Review

At the risk of a phantom neg rep, and we here in occupied territory are rightfully distrustful, but there's a lot in that article that isn't wrong.

If you look at it from the prospective of someone ready willing and able to abuse it , you could find plenty .
Look at it and think how you could use it against someone you really had an axe to grind with and then think what would happen if it was used on you.
Pissed off ex girlfriend ? Coworker ? Neighbor ?
Won't cost them a dime to pick up the phone and throw a f*ck into your life you may not ever recover from.

Picture this .
Out of the blue there is a knock on the door .
Five of the local PD's finest hand you a piece of paper .
"We're here to revoke your permit and confiscate your guns."
You either start shooting or comply.
Assuming you comply , they then hurl your guns into a trunk while you watch and off they go to the bonded warehouse , the meter just started running.
Now of course you have the right to appeal .
Get out the checkbook and write a nice retainer of five to ten grand for your lawyer just to get started.
Congratulations your hearing is now scheduled for early 2020 considering the backlog in MA.
Keep in mind that the meter is still running at the warehouse.

Now the state of course is going to delay and fudge as long as possible to bleed you to death on lawyers fees
Oh and the warehouse meter is still running.
Finally you get your day in court and the person who took out the order drops it two hours before court starts.
Congratulations you won.
All you have to do is pay eight or ten grand to your lawyer and double the value of what your guns are worth to get them back from the bonded warehouse.
Technicaly you got your due process.
Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy doesn't it ?

 

[42!]

Picture this .
Out of the blue there is a knock on the door .
Five of the local PD's finest hand you a piece of paper .
"We're here to revoke your permit and confiscate your guns."
You either start shooting or comply.
Assuming you comply , they then hurl your guns into a trunk while you watch and off they go to the bonded warehouse , the meter just started running.
Now of course you have the right to appeal .
Get out the checkbook and write a nice retainer of five to ten grand for your lawyer just to get started.
Congratulations your hearing is now scheduled for early 2020 considering the backlog in MA.
Keep in mind that the meter is still running at the warehouse.

This is already the case in MA. It's called a suitability revocation/suspension. And you will lose the first round "administrative hearing".

ERPOs would only be redundant in MA. Or we could get rid of suitability.

Hey GOAL, if we can't prevent the ERPO, how about getting suitability removed? It would be redundant.

 

[Waher]

ERPO is worse because of the anonymous Swatting aspect to it. I wouldn't put it past some politicized PDs to start kicking doors for PR and having that go badly sideways along the lines of Framingham PD's downright murder of an innocent man during a wrong address raid.

 

[rsj]

If you look at it from the prospective of someone ready willing and able to abuse it , you could find plenty .
Look at it and think how you could use it against someone you really had an axe to grind with and then think what would happen if it was used on you.
Pissed off ex girlfriend ? Coworker ? Neighbor ?
Won't cost them a dime to pick up the phone and throw a f*ck into your life you may not ever recover from.

Picture this .
Out of the blue there is a knock on the door .
Five of the local PD's finest hand you a piece of paper .
"We're here to revoke your permit and confiscate your guns."
You either start shooting or comply.
Assuming you comply , they then hurl your guns into a trunk while you watch and off they go to the bonded warehouse , the meter just started running.
Now of course you have the right to appeal .
Get out the checkbook and write a nice retainer of five to ten grand for your lawyer just to get started.
Congratulations your hearing is now scheduled for early 2020 considering the backlog in MA.
Keep in mind that the meter is still running at the warehouse.

Now the state of course is going to delay and fudge as long as possible to bleed you to death on lawyers fees
Oh and the warehouse meter is still running.
Finally you get your day in court and the person who took out the order drops it two hours before court starts.
Congratulations you won.
All you have to do is pay eight or ten grand to your lawyer and double the value of what your guns are worth to get them back from the bonded warehouse.
Technicaly you got your due process.
Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy doesn't it ?

Does anyone know out there if an FFL can sell them for you while they are in the warehouse?

 

[MachineHead]

Looks like the guy who owns that bonded warehouse is going to be swimming in more money. I guarantee the floor discussions of the ERPO bill won’t even include any of these concerns of gun owners. This state is f-ed.

 

[TayNinh_66]

Finally you get your day in court and the person who took out the order drops it two hours before court starts. Congratulations you won.

No you didn't. ERPO info will be sent to NICS as soon as it's entered so you are a PP. You will be a certified dangerous person and CofP will deny you on suitability. Once 209A or ERPO is entered into system it is forever.

 

[MachineHead]

No you didn't. ERPO info will be sent to NICS as soon as it's entered so you are a PP. You will be a certified dangerous person and CofP will deny you on suitability. Once 209A or ERPO is entered into system it is forever.

I explained this to my girlfriend tonight. You’d have thought I taught her how to divide by zero. She can’t believe how unfair and slanted this law is to any gun owner who isn’t an actual threat. Suitability + resolved ERPO = end to your gun ownership in MA if this passes.

 

[Dadstoys]

No you didn't. ERPO info will be sent to NICS as soon as it's entered so you are a PP. You will be a certified dangerous person and CofP will deny you on suitability. Once 209A or ERPO is entered into system it is forever.

And that too.

 

[Coyote33]

Looks like the guy who owns that bonded warehouse is going to be swimming in more money. I guarantee the floor discussions of the ERPO bill won’t even include any of these concerns of gun owners. This state is f-ed.

You'd think they would at least clean up that bonded warehouse cartel when they do this.

 

[JJ4]

If you look at it from the prospective of someone ready willing and able to abuse it , you could find plenty .

I get that and I agree. We're already being abused, but that doesn't mean there's room for better laws.

This is already the case in MA. It's called a suitability revocation/suspension. And you will lose the first round "administrative hearing".

ERPOs would only be redundant in MA. Or we could get rid of suitability.

Hey GOAL, if we can't prevent the ERPO, how about getting suitability removed? It would be redundant.

This. Suitability is already much much worse than what a "good" ERPO law would do.

ERPO is worse because of the anonymous Swatting aspect to it.

Today you can call up your local police chief: "My neighbor owns guns and is acting erratic. Ok no he didn't do anything specific to threaten me but.... ". The police chief can unilaterally pull the license and guess what, there's zero recourse. The cops still show up and take the guns.

Looks like the guy who owns that bonded warehouse is going to be swimming in more money. I guarantee the floor discussions of the ERPO bill won’t even include any of these concerns of gun owners.

Bonded warehouses need to go away. We have been at the table several times and it has done actual good in laws as they are actually written. E.g. in 2014 we and GOAL turned a shit sandwich into something not entirely bad and actually had some good stuff in it. Just a few months ago we turned Linsky's version of a bump stock bill that had things like regulating the maintenance of firearms into language that was narrow and specific. None of this is sufficient to stop abuse by the government, but having the laws written properly is a necessary condition.

------------------------------

I get that many on NES feel that if someone's not locked up in jail or a mental ward they should enjoy 100% of their rights. If you don't know anyone who's borderline or goes through temporary crisis then you probably don't know enough people. In dealing with a large condo association and an apartment building, I see many people who are borderline nuts. The current system for 2A rights is all or nothing, and that doesn't work. There are people who are bipolar that are totally fine when they are on their meds and things are well adjusted, but who are erratic and should not have quick access to a firearm when they are having problems. People who throw stuff around their apartment in fits of anger when they go through something, but are otherwise ok for years at a time. The all or nothing approach either errs on the side of denying them rights all the time, or falls into the "well, there's nothing we can do".

I will never ever support something Linsky puts forward. But when you get the National Review and the NRA supporting some version of an ERPO it might be time to seriously look at what language we would want in a law. We're so used to being abused that we're clamoring for the status-quo so that we can continue to be beaten up by suitability, and in essence we're defending our abusers.

 

[TayNinh_66]

Bonded warehouses need to go away. We have been at the table several times and it has done actual good in laws as they are actually written. E.g. in 2014 we and GOAL turned a shit sandwich into something not entirely bad and actually had some good stuff in it. Just a few months ago we turned Linsky's version of a bump stock bill that had things like regulating the maintenance of firearms into language that was narrow and specific. None of this is sufficient to stop abuse by the government, but having the laws written properly is a necessary condition.

This is the crux of the matter. The legislature is going to do something. We can refine the language of the bill to remove the high potential of abuse.
For example, instead of allowing anyone the right to file ERPO petition it should be confined to LEO and licensed medical practitioners. (Even though they already have license revocation, section 12 commitments, and 58A dangerousness hearings.) Court must require a medical certificate prior to granting ex parte temporary orders (similar to existing guardianship medical certificate.) Language that would allow a person subject to ERPO to transfer firearms seized by PD to FFL or to sell to another party. Language that would shift the burden of proof that someone is dangerous to the petitioner rather than the current language that puts the burden on the respondent to prove he is not dangerous.

The reality is the legislature will probably pass something. I think we can tweak the language so the bill will allow PD's to remove firearms from a mentally ill person off meds rather than the current language that would allow a pissed off girlfriend to get revenge that will last a lifetime.

 

[42!]

This is the crux of the matter. The legislature is going to do something. We can refine the language of the bill to remove the high potential of abuse.
For example, instead of allowing anyone the right to file ERPO petition it should be confined to LEO and licensed medical practitioners. (Even though they already have license revocation, section 12 commitments, and 58A dangerousness hearings.) Court must require a medical certificate prior to granting ex parte temporary orders (similar to existing guardianship medical certificate.) Language that would allow a person subject to ERPO to transfer firearms seized by PD to FFL or to sell to another party. Language that would shift the burden of proof that someone is dangerous to the petitioner rather than the current language that puts the burden on the respondent to prove he is not dangerous.

The reality is the legislature will probably pass something. I think we can tweak the language so the bill will allow PD's to remove firearms from a mentally ill person off meds rather than the current language that would allow a pissed off girlfriend to get revenge that will last a lifetime.

And remove Suitability completely. After all, at that point it would be redundant.

 

[Coyote33]

Does anyone know out there if an FFL can sell them for you while they are in the warehouse?

More like "sell them against your will" while they are in the warehouse.

So, how do we set up the police for suitability? Surely there is language in there to limit them and take their guns when they do something wrong also, right? For example, the state trooper who shot the lady in the hip. Or the guy who got murdered in Framingham. There is surely a parallel means of doing this, right? Or are they [strike]above[/strike] exempt from the law?

 

[42!]

More like "sell them against your will" while they are in the warehouse.

So, how do we set up the police for suitability? Surely there is language in there to limit them and take their guns when they do something wrong also, right? For example, the state trooper who shot the lady in the hip.

You can't, because the police don't even need an LTC. They can "carry on the badge". I disagree with this interpretation of the law but it's been used this way for a long time.

 

[MachineHead]

This is the crux of the matter. The legislature is going to do something. We can refine the language of the bill to remove the high potential of abuse.
For example, instead of allowing anyone the right to file ERPO petition it should be confined to LEO and licensed medical practitioners. (Even though they already have license revocation, section 12 commitments, and 58A dangerousness hearings.) Court must require a medical certificate prior to granting ex parte temporary orders (similar to existing guardianship medical certificate.) Language that would allow a person subject to ERPO to transfer firearms seized by PD to FFL or to sell to another party. Language that would shift the burden of proof that someone is dangerous to the petitioner rather than the current language that puts the burden on the respondent to prove he is not dangerous.

The reality is the legislature will probably pass something. I think we can tweak the language so the bill will allow PD's to remove firearms from a mentally ill person off meds rather than the current language that would allow a pissed off girlfriend to get revenge that will last a lifetime.

Now we’re talking. As the ERPO stands right now sounds very much like witch-hunt accusations can be thrown about and believed without exception.

 

[TayNinh_66]

And remove Suitability completely. After all, at that point it would be redundant.

Correct, but any discussion re. suitability would be a non-starter in the current legislature. Any changes to current CofP authority would create instant opposition from MA Police Assoc., Ma Police Chiefs Assoc., Ma State Police Assoc., Boston Police Assoc., Ma Teachers Assoc., MA AAUW., and every anti-gun nut group in the country. I think we are better off keeping our focus on neutering the language in Deckers ERPO bill to protect us from vindictive ex's.

 

[TayNinh_66]

Now we’re talking. As the ERPO stands right now sounds very much like witch-hunt accusations can be thrown about and believed without exception.

Yes. Current language allows anyone to apply for ex parte temporary ERPO. Ex parte means you find out when local PD arrives on your door step to seize firearms and LTC. Courts are supposed to use "preponderance of evidence" but we know how that works in 209A proceedings. You do have the right to a hearing within 30 days but you're firearms are already gone and you have been officially declared a dangerous person by the court so good luck getting your LTC back even if you get the temporary order dismissed. The order doesn't get erased and is now in NICS database.

 

[Waher]

View: https://twitter.com/Communism_Kills/status/975117342568009735

The schools are already training little monsters to abuse the system. Imagine what they will do to people with ERPOs.

 

[42!]

Correct, but any discussion re. suitability would be a non-starter in the current legislature. Any changes to current CofP authority would create instant opposition from MA Police Assoc., Ma Police Chiefs Assoc., Ma State Police Assoc., Boston Police Assoc., Ma Teachers Assoc., MA AAUW., and every anti-gun nut group in the country. I think we are better off keeping our focus on neutering the language in Deckers ERPO bill to protect us from vindictive ex's.

Your ex can already screw you over and it has nothing to do with the ERPO. All she has to do is go to the courthouse and file for an ex parte 209A RO. They have people there lined up to help her do the paperwork and say what needs to be said. Not that this is really necessary since the judge is going to grant it regardless. The first you will hear about it is the popo knocking at your door. Sure you'll get a hearing later, but the assumption will be that you are guilty. Go ahead, try and prove you'll never do anything to harm her, remember past behavior of not harming is not proof that you never will.

 

[namedpipes]

ERPO is worse because of the anonymous Swatting aspect to it. I wouldn't put it past some politicized PDs to start kicking doors for PR and having that go badly sideways along the lines of Framingham PD's downright murder of an innocent man during a wrong address raid.

That was ruled to be an accident


(Actually, it was the right address, but their target was a 17 yo kid, not an uninvolved 65 yo man that was prone on the floor with his hands cuffed behind his back.

The kid, they could have apprehended on one of his numerous evening walks 100 yards down the street to where he was dealing nickle and dime bags at a gas station. Would have been a lot easier on everyone and maybe they could have kept their armored truck. (there was a LOT that didn't hit the papers about that incident)

 

[42!]

That was ruled to be an accident


(Actually, it was the right address, but their target was a 17 yo kid, not an uninvolved 65 yo man that was prone on the floor with his hands cuffed behind his back.

The kid, they could have apprehended on one of his numerous evening walks 100 yards down the street to where he was dealing nickle and dime bags at a gas station. Would have been a lot easier on everyone and maybe they could have kept their armored truck. (there was a LOT that didn't hit the papers about that incident)

Officer Paul Duncan we should all remember his name.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Your ex can already screw you over and it has nothing to do with the ERPO. All she has to do is go to the courthouse and file for an ex parte 209A RO. They have people there lined up to help her do the paperwork and say what needs to be said. Not that this is really necessary since the judge is going to grant it regardless. The first you will hear about it is the popo knocking at your door. Sure you'll get a hearing later, but the assumption will be that you are guilty. Go ahead, try and prove you'll never do anything to harm her, remember past behavior of not harming is not proof that you never will.

CORRECTION: She doesn't need to even get out of bed. Merely dialing 911 and "declaring" that she feels threatened is enough to get the 209A. Almost nobody goes to a courthouse to obtain an ex parte RO.

 

[JayMcB]

CORRECTION: She doesn't need to even get out of bed. Merely dialing 911 and "declaring" that she feels threatened is enough to get the 209A. Almost nobody goes to a courthouse to obtain an ex parte RO.

Let's assume this happens to a firearm owner who has property in more than one state, or a summer cottage other than his primary residence in MA, and chooses to store some of his firearms in said non-MA state or cottage. What is the process to get those firearms 'safely' out of said (former) firearm owner's possession?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Let's assume this happens to a firearm owner who has property in more than one state, or a summer cottage other than his primary residence in MA, and chooses to store some of his firearms in said non-MA state or cottage. What is the process to get those firearms 'safely' out of said (former) firearm owner's possession?

MA PD contacts remote PD who goes and takes them if 209A or if Fed ERPO were to become law.

 

[Al458]

MA PD contacts remote PD who goes and takes them if 209A or if Fed ERPO were to become law.

Would other states comply with a state level ERPO originating from Ma. if said subject had property in other states with potential access to firearms? Would it be looked at the same way as a 209 or other similar protection order from other states?

 

[42!]

Would other states comply with a state level ERPO originating from Ma. if said subject had property in other states with potential access to firearms? Would it be looked at the same way as a 209 or other similar protection order from other states?

Who's to say. The ERPO doesn't exist yet. I do know at least some NH departments will cooperate. I don't know if there is an official stance on it, but you might get a different response from a local PD on the Canadian border than you get from a local PD on the MA border.

 

[Len-2A Training]

209A = MA version of Lautenberg Act.

I chose my words carefully. If ERPO is Federal, PDs will have to do the same thing that they do wrt Lautenberg Act, confiscate even if the person doesn't live there.

If it is a MA only ERPO, each non-MA PD will respond according to their own policies. Some might confiscate and some may say GFY to the PD that requests/demands them to do so.

 

[tcarter01]

Looks like more movement on this...Got this from GOAL a few mikes ago..Already sent my Rep (and Sen) both good 2A supporters , a reminder to do what is constitutional and right by the law abiding..we'll see I guess..

 

[Coyote33]

Just saw this today. They need a quicker way to reach people than just email. Either get some phone robocall software, and/or more social media. I know GOAL used to be on Instagram, but it looks like they got hacked or something, as the name got weird.

 

[Matt_SERE]

Just saw this today. They need a quicker way to reach people than just email. Either get some phone robocall software, and/or more social media. I know GOAL used to be on Instagram, but it looks like they got hacked or something, as the name got weird.

They are active on twitter: GOAL (@GOALupdate) | Twitter

If you use Instagram here is a group that you may wish to follow: Massachusetts Women Gun Owners (@mawomengunowners) • Instagram photos and videos