MA Handgun Compliance Q+A Thread (new)

[M1911]

Thanks for the insight guys. Any idea what the cost to submit is? I can't imagine they'd need to sell that many guns for it to be profitable.

The cost is the independent drop testing. I expect that is fairly expensive.

 

[drgrant]

Thanks for the insight guys. Any idea what the cost to submit is? I can't imagine they'd need to sell that many guns for it to be profitable.

It's thousands of dollars and like 3 destroyed guns to get a gun tested. (this is just for EOPS stuff, not CMR940 AG bullshit, which has no testing regimen or certainty to it)

-Mike

 

[Drix]

Has anyone ever successfully convinced a manufacturer to submit a specific SKU for approval to get on the EOPS roster? Nothing specific in mind, but for example, Sig often has several SKU's within one model, but maybe one is supposedly MA approved.

You dont want this, you want an approved model not specific sku.

The cost is the independent drop testing. I expect that is fairly expensive.

I think it's like 10k per gun for 3 mandatory guns (maybe even 5?). Its way more than what you think it be worth

 

[Len-2A Training]

Thanks for the insight guys. Any idea what the cost to submit is? I can't imagine they'd need to sell that many guns for it to be profitable.

The cost of an independent lab testing to meet the MGL and CMR. If it is done at the same time as they do it for CA (much of the requirements are the same) it is a marginal cost. My estimate is an additional cost of $5-10K, then they submit the lab report to the MA GCAB for review, who then submits their recommendation to the Secretary of Public Safety.

You dont want this, you want an approved model not specific sku.

I think it's like 10k per gun for 3 mandatory guns (maybe even 5?). Its way more than what you think it be worth

Agree, model vs. SKU.

Not sure where you get your estimate. A lot of years ago I ran a product safety test lab for DEC, we charged for our hours, not per unit. My guess is that the approved labs here would do the same thing.

 

[DarkJoker33]

with respect to this point:
the answer is. they're not "MA compliant" by either the AG''s or EOPS regs, or only by EOPS and not the AG's regs... but it should be noted that "MA compliance" is an issue of dealer transfers and has nothing to do with individual possession or private sale. EG- mere possession of a noncompliant handgun, is NOT a criminal offense. This can't be stated enough, as many in MA improperly use terms like "illegal in MA" or "banned in MA" to describe a handgun which a dealer cannot sell or transfer.

Is there a section of the law I can be steered towards so i can read this for myself, or is it a matter of the law is silent with respect to person to person transfers of non-list handguns? Also, are there any cases where someone was charged with posession of a non-compliant handgun? I'm trying to understand what is a rather confusing regulatory system (similar to Mass landlord tenant law!)

I think this answers my question , but I'd like to clarify it.
There is a pistol Id like to own, a beretta px4 storm.
Its not on the mass approved roster that is on the first page of the thread.

My understanding is, I could buy this in a private sale face to face transaction, but if I involve a dealer to do the transfer, it wouldn't go through due to it not being on the roster?

 

[milktree]

I think this answers my question , but I'd like to clarify it.
There is a pistol Id like to own, a beretta px4 storm.
Its not on the mass approved roster that is on the first page of the thread.

My understanding is, I could buy this in a private sale face to face transaction, but if I involve a dealer to do the transfer, it wouldn't go through due to it not being on the roster?

Correct.

A dealer may not transfer it to a non-dealer.

A non-dealer can transfer anything legal for both the “seller” and “buyer” can possess.

The quotes are there because transfer of money isn’t relevant.

 

[Drix]

I think this answers my question , but I'd like to clarify it.
There is a pistol Id like to own, a beretta px4 storm.
Its not on the mass approved roster that is on the first page of the thread.

My understanding is, I could buy this in a private sale face to face transaction, but if I involve a dealer to do the transfer, it wouldn't go through due to it not being on the roster?

This is correct if you're trying to transfer the gun in one piece.

This also works for AR's. I lost a pre-healey AR because the seller identified it as "preban" it went to a FFL in a large collection and the FFL didn't check the SN till after they took possession and I didn't think about it- cost me a fair chunk of cash.

 

[Sauer Grapes]

I think this answers my question , but I'd like to clarify it.
There is a pistol Id like to own, a beretta px4 storm.
Its not on the mass approved roster that is on the first page of the thread.

My understanding is, I could buy this in a private sale face to face transaction, but if I involve a dealer to do the transfer, it wouldn't go through due to it not being on the roster?

That depends upon the dealer.

 

[DarkJoker33]

Thanks for the clarification guys.

If I could, I'd like to ask one more question.

What happens if I'm carrying the px4 and for whatever reason, a police officer finds it on me?
What happens there? Since he won't find it on the roster.

 

[HorizontalHunter]

Thanks for the clarification guys.

If I could, I'd like to ask one more question.

What happens if I'm carrying the px4 and for whatever reason, a police officer finds it on me?
What happens there? Since he won't find it on the roster.

The roster only effects what a dealer can transfer to you. Not what you can possess.

You still have to abide by the AWB and Boston’s AWB if you live there.

Bob

 

[Drix]

Thanks for the clarification guys.

If I could, I'd like to ask one more question.

What happens if I'm carrying the px4 and for whatever reason, a police officer finds it on me?
What happens there? Since he won't find it on the roster.

Not a god damned thing.

FFL can't transfer it under the code of merchant regulations (CMR), that's not your problem at that point.

 

[DarthRevan]

Thanks for the clarification guys.

If I could, I'd like to ask one more question.

What happens if I'm carrying the px4 and for whatever reason, a police officer finds it on me?
What happens there? Since he won't find it on the roster.

Simple, non-PC answer: Don’t be caught doing illegal shit!
But in all seriousness, as answered above, nothing illegal with owning an “off list” gun.

 

[drgrant]

Not a god damned thing.

FFL can't transfer it under the code of merchant regulations (CMR), that's not your problem at that point.

Depending on the tier of compliance if an FFL goes off list it's actually an MGL violation (felony) for the dealer, but that still ain't the buyer's
problem, regardless. The offense is only tied to the MA dealer. The purchaser cannot "physically" commit the given offense within the way the law is
written.

The List = MGL (criminal )
AG's consumer safety BS etc = CMR 940. (civil)

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Thanks for the clarification guys.

If I could, I'd like to ask one more question.

What happens if I'm carrying the px4 and for whatever reason, a police officer finds it on me?
What happens there? Since he won't find it on the roster.

Like the others said, absent any other overriding circumstances or "crimes", absolutely nothing. There is nothing "special" about carrying an off
list handgun, or for that matter one that isn't CMR940 compliant. Those are both strictly a dealer law + regulation.

That said, if an officer is fondling/looking at your gun you've probably f***ed up pretty bad somewhere, or something else is
going on. (209A restraining order, ERPO, etc) The # of people I heard who have gotten the "we want to disarm you on the side of the road" treatment isn't
very high. I'm sure others have had it happen but it is rare.

The last time a police officer messed with one of my guns is because they happened to be a friend... and I've been pulled over
more times than I almost care to admit (for minor traffic BS).

-Mike

 

[DarkJoker33]

The last time a police officer messed with one of my guns is because they happened to be a friend... and I've been pulled over
more times than I almost care to admit (for minor traffic BS).

-Mike

Thats more or less what I meant is getting pulled over for a traffic violation of sorts.

Thanks

 

[jayhitek]

Thats more or less what I meant is getting pulled over for a traffic violation of sorts.

Thanks

I have a PX4 and love it. You will have to buy it off someone privately. They are around. And don't over pay. Some asshates try and get $7-800 for them. And then if you wait you'll see someone selling one for $4-600 which is reasonable.

 

[CrackPot]

I dont know if anyone else has noticed some trends in the EOPS Approved Firearms Roster.

It used to only be Ruger that listed VERY specific model numbers so they would have the SR22 under 8 entries with 3600, 3601, etc. Then Sig started listing very specific part numbers, not just P226 but 320F-9-M17-MS-MA.

Now they are listing 940CMR16 related features in the EOPS list.

P320 PN 320C-9-BSS-MS-MA (Chamber witness hole is milled out in a square shape)
MC2c- MA Compliant (Loaded Chamber View Port), Two-Tone

Why are these items being listed with 940CMR16 requirements. The features being called out in the listings are NOT required to satisfy the testing requirements under MGL 140 sec 123. It looks like the politics of gun control has leaked into the previously law/rule based testing regiment.

 

[drgrant]

Sure it's not just the manufacturers prostrating themselves in front of eops/ag with acts of mindless obeisance? Remember when ruger tried to get its own guns delisted... lol. I think some of their attorneys are throwing lots of bologna down during the process.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Stupidity by mfrs. And you can't fix stupid.

 

[spt_1955]

Mike is correct: The main objective of the regulations is to confuse and discourage the whole issue of firearms ownership on the part of the only citizens who care about following the law: the law-abiding. This theory is proven by the fact that the AG's office will not answer any questions about the regulations: I know, I've called to inquire, and been told: "We don't answer any questions about the law. If you want questions answered, hire an attorney. We only enforce the law". Contrast this with the BATF. Anyone can call them about any question about federal law, and they will either give you a direct answer or research it for you. In other words, they do what they can to help you comply with the law.

It's actually worse than that (if you can believe it) when the AG issued her December 22, 2015 letter to FFL's reinforcing the "ban" on sales of Glock handguns the letter actually stated that the FFL's were business owners with enough experience to know what was legal to sell and what was not and it was not her responsibility to explain that to them. I wish I had saved a copy of the letter I was that astounded to see it in writing!! "You should know the law...don't ask me" LOL.

Having said that I to am astounded at the number of people who have LTC's and do not have even a rudimentary understanding of MA laws and regulations. In fact most of them do not even understand that there are laws (MGL) and regulations (CMR) and they are DIFFERENT things!!! for example why are Glock handguns on the EOPSS approved roster of handguns (LAW - M.G.L. c.140.s.121-131) but I cannot buy one from my local FFL (REGULATION - 501 CMR 16).

I was under the impression that (at least in the last 20 years) if you applied for an LTC you needed to complete an approved course that included a section on MA Laws?

My suggestion - Take a course from GOAL. They offer it several times a year. If you belong to a club ask them to contact GOAL and have them come and teach the course. They will do it. We try and have them come to my club every year or so.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Having said that I to am astounded at the number of people who have LTC's and do not have even a rudimentary understanding of MA laws and regulations. In fact most of them do not even understand that there are laws (MGL) and regulations (CMR) and they are DIFFERENT things!!! for example why are Glock handguns on the EOPSS approved roster of handguns (LAW - M.G.L. c.140.s.121-131) but I cannot buy one from my local FFL (REGULATION - 501 CMR 16).

I had an otherwise intelligent person ask me if a school ceases to be a school for gun law purposes when used as a polling place.

 

[EJFudd]

I was under the impression that (at least in the last 20 years) if you applied for an LTC you needed to complete an approved course that included a section on MA Laws?

My suggestion - Take a course from GOAL. They offer it several times a year. If you belong to a club ask them to contact GOAL and have them come and teach the course. They will do it. We try and have them come to my club every year or so.

Well, two points on that:

1) The laws & regs here in MA have changed over time (usually not for the better), and,
2) The information offered in said "approved courses" is not always 100% accurate.

Add to that the whole "MassPrudence" thang wherein some instructors make up their own rules (with good intent, but please don't tell people that your suggestions are the law) and is it any wonder that many folks are still confused and about what the law really says.

 

[CrackPot]

Well, two points on that:

1) The laws & regs here in MA have changed over time (usually not for the better), and,
2) The information offered in said "approved courses" is not always 100% accurate.

Add to that the whole "MassPrudence" thang wherein some instructors make up their own rules (with good intent, but please don't tell people that your suggestions are the law) and is it any wonder that many folks are still confused and about what the law really says.

I think you missed two items that make your two small potatoes
1) Many instructors are lazy/bad/ignorant
2) People are stupid (taking the class and teaching)

I have a customer that just completed a course where they said "All ARs are illegal with detachable magazines. Healey said so. I sell fixed mag lowers, take a look" That was just one example of the ridiculous things that people are told in these courses. Is it any wonder they walk out knowing nothing?

 

[EJFudd]

I had an otherwise intelligent person ask me if a school ceases to be a school for gun law purposes when used as a polling place.

And the answer is... ???

Funny, but I had to think about that for a second or two last night as I was bringing home my brand new 'tax-free weekend' acquisition when I wondered if I should detour to go vote first. I quickly decided that would not be a very good idea.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Having said that I to am astounded at the number of people who have LTC's and do not have even a rudimentary understanding of MA laws and regulations. In fact most of them do not even understand that there are laws (MGL) and regulations (CMR) and they are DIFFERENT things!!! for example why are Glock handguns on the EOPSS approved roster of handguns (LAW - M.G.L. c.140.s.121-131) but I cannot buy one from my local FFL (REGULATION - 501 CMR 16).

I was under the impression that (at least in the last 20 years) if you applied for an LTC you needed to complete an approved course that included a section on MA Laws?

Yes, most have no clue about any of the gun laws or regulations. It is why I created my Mass Gun Law by and for Non-Lawyers Seminar and it runs ~7 hours.

If you actually check the CMR on what instructors are supposed to cover wrt MGL/CMRs, it is really very little . . . and you can merely hand a sheet of paper to the student and be in compliance with the teaching requirement.

Well, two points on that:

1) The laws & regs here in MA have changed over time (usually not for the better), and,
2) The information offered in said "approved courses" is not always 100% accurate.

Add to that the whole "MassPrudence" thang wherein some instructors make up their own rules (with good intent, but please don't tell people that your suggestions are the law) and is it any wonder that many folks are still confused and about what the law really says.

Much of what instructors teach wrt MGL/CMRs is wrong or misleading as they don't really have a grasp on the laws/regs themselves.

I think you missed two items that make your two small potatoes
1) Many instructors are lazy/bad/ignorant
2) People are stupid (taking the class and teaching)

I have a customer that just completed a course where they said "All ARs are illegal with detachable magazines. Healey said so. I sell fixed mag lowers, take a look" That was just one example of the ridiculous things that people are told in these courses. Is it any wonder they walk out knowing nothing?

Very true on both counts.

I'm not surprised to learn that an instructor/FFL would tell people that only their product is legal to own. It's a vested interest vs. truly trying to teach students and present an honest picture of the laws.

 

[Fritz the Cat]

And the answer is... ???

Funny, but I had to think about that for a second or two last night as I was bringing home my brand new 'tax-free weekend' acquisition when I wondered if I should detour to go vote first. I quickly decided that would not be a very good idea.

Why? Is the polling place in a school?

 

[EJFudd]

Why? Is the polling place in a school?

It is for sure! And with my (bad) luck, I'd have been arrested in a second and led away in handcuffs with a raincoat over my head while all my neighbors stared, pointed and shook their heads.

I think I made the right decision to go home first.

 

[LTCRN]

Much of what instructors teach wrt MGL/CMRs is wrong or misleading as they don't really have a grasp on the laws/regs themselves.

Is it safe to say no matter what anybody teaches you in regards to MA firearms laws, they don't have a full grasp, because MA laws are purposely full of gray areas? Most of the answers to the straightforward questions can be found on GOAL's or Comm2A's websites. I have learned an awful lot in regards to firearms laws and regulations just by reading threads and posts on this site from lawyers, Comm2A reps., and GOAL reps., and then spending the time to further verify if needed.
In the past and present I have received bad advice, just like others, from many a gun shop worker / owner, firearms instructor, police chief, police officer, police dispatcher, retired police officer, police clerk, range safety officer, etc. It seems like everyone loves to hear themselves talk and be a hero without even being asked in the first place.

 

[drgrant]

I was under the impression that (at least in the last 20 years) if you applied for an LTC you needed to complete an approved course that included a section on MA Laws?

Not sure if serious, I would hope that an instructor wouldn't waste tons of class time talking about mass handgun compliance, considering that violating it won't put the LTC holder in
jail.

I would be fine with people not knowing anything about handgun compliance- but they also need to figure out the second part, which is for them to stop caring about it as much as possible.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

It is for sure! And with my (bad) luck, I'd have been arrested in a second and led away in handcuffs with a raincoat over my head while all my neighbors stared, pointed and shook their heads.

I think I made the right decision to go home first.

It is a shame that people are afraid to legally leave the gun locked in their trunk.