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MA: Identifying Pre-Ban Glock Mags

I posted information on this subject some years back. And, I will restate what I posted previously. There were many preban, square notched FML magazines manufactured by Glock prior to the 1994 ban taking effect. In fact, most major firearm manufacturers specifically gear-up magazine production prior to the deadline that was set in the 1994 law in order to supply what was going to be an obvious hot market for their magazines that did not exist before the ban was passed into law. I personally legally purchased Glock FML square notched magazines with the caliber designation high on the back of the magazine PRIOR to the deadline set for the 1994 standard capacity magazine ban. The only magazines that are clearly identified as post ban magazines are those with the military and civilian law enforcement markings on the back, and the newer 4th and 5th generation Glock pistols, which can be easily distinguished by the different shape of the magazine near the magazine lips, mag release notches, etc. The only way that a prosecutor in Massachusetts can legitimately bring a lawful prosecution for a possession of a post ban magazine is if the magazine(s) in question are either marked restricted or are the newer 4th and 5th generation magazines. Anyone disputing this fact should call and/or write the Glock legal department, and ask them for a written opinion. They can be reached at:

Phone: 770-432-1202
FAX: 770-433-8719

GLOCK, Inc.
6000 Highlands Parkway
Smyrna, GA 30082
USA

Even the original language in the 1994 federal ban on standard capacity magazines contained wording that basically stated that if there was any question or confusion as to whether or not a magazine was preban or post ban, it was to be considered a preban magazine unless there was clear proof to the contrary. I cannot believe that this matter continues to be an issue, and that there are still people trying to convince everyone that only U notch magazines are preban magazines. This is simply untrue. I am not the only Glock armorer that has made these same statements. There are published armorers manuals that have made these same statements that were published not too long after the ban went into effect. In my previous post on this subject matter I had copied and pasted some images from gun part company websites that showed the different generations of Glock magazines. One of those images was from the Glockmeister website. They had an image showing preban 3rd generation magazines with the caliber designation listed high on the back of the magazine, without the restriction warning underneath. The Glockmeister company was started by an ex-Glock employee.

Therefore, I challenge anyone to get any qualified Glock company representative to go on record in the way of a written notarized affidavit stating that only U notch magazines are preban Gock magazines. This should be a simple matter for any prosecutor in Massachusetts to achieve. Unless and until such an affidavit is secured from a qualified Glock company representative, this effort to convince everyone that only U notch magazines are the only preban magazines that exist or have ever existed should cease.

Get a signed notarized affidavit from the Glock legal department or a formal written published ruling from the BATFE.
 
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Almannic, I am not a Glock armorer but have spoken directly with Glock-USA General Counsel and their lead technician. Both have confirmed exactly what you (and I) have stated numerous times. However, there are thousands of internet "ex-spurts" who continue to spread BS on this topic and thousands of gullible people who lap it up and spread the BS further.

The Glock book by Pat Sweeney is also definitive as the copy I have posted was published during the Clinton Ban. The one posted here a day or two ago is a more recent edition.

And for the record, Glock Legal Dept will not provide any formal written document stating when/what is pre-ban vs. post-ban.

From what I've seen of the court system, an ADA with an agenda (most seem to have one) can and will still prosecute someone on bogus large-capacity charges and leave it up to the defendant to find a competent attorney (and there are damn few in MA) that can refute the allegations sufficient to convince a judge or jury. I testified in one such case although it was not about Glock mags and it was an even clearer cut case that the charges were pure vindictive bullshit.
 
Len:

I agree with everything you have stated. The Pat Sweeney book is what I was referring to in my previous post. I also agree with your assessment of both the unscrupulous ADAs with an agenda, and the lack of skilled defense attorneys in Massachusetts. It is amazing how the legal system in Massachusetts simply operates based upon individual bias, lack of competent honest lawyers and judges, etc. just like some third banana republic. Whatever happened to rule by law? But, if someone had the proper funding, and other resources they could have ADA bar cards revoked, sue these people for prosecutorial misconduct, bring civil rights complaints, etc. The problem is that Massachusetts does not really have a truly hard core firearm rights group. If we did, then this type of misconduct would not be tolerated. We also need some state legislators that actually know something about firearms other than what they see on TV.

A
 
Heh, I read the title as "MA: Identifying as a preban mag". Makes sense though, the white male patriarchy has no right to tell a magazine what it's identity is.
 
bumping an oldie but a goodie to humbly ask for some assistance.

what says the hive, prebie goodness? only right side mag notch, non ambi. detailed pics below. 9 marking on the follower, no Leo markings
 

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According to this (and I have no idea if this is right, but sounds legit), the high position of the caliber marking on your mag photo means this is post ban. Go to post #21.

Are Pre-Ban Glock Mags Still In Demand..... - The Firing Line Forums

That would mean that the caliber marking would have to be below the mag shoulder for it to be a square preban. Again, assuming this poster knew what he was talking about.
 
According to this (and I have no idea if this is right, but sounds legit), the high position of the caliber marking on your mag photo means this is post ban. Go to post #21.

Are Pre-Ban Glock Mags Still In Demand..... - The Firing Line Forums

That would mean that the caliber marking would have to be below the mag shoulder for it to be a square preban. Again, assuming this poster knew what he was talking about.
I too, have seen that photo. referenced her on NES, places like arfcom and glocktalk to name a few. wish someone had the opposite front side view of those mags, would like to see the ambi metal piece in there or not and the both sides cut etc. thanks for your reply tho I appreciate it!
 
According to this (and I have no idea if this is right, but sounds legit), the high position of the caliber marking on your mag photo means this is post ban. Go to post #21.

Are Pre-Ban Glock Mags Still In Demand..... - The Firing Line Forums

That would mean that the caliber marking would have to be below the mag shoulder for it to be a square preban. Again, assuming this poster knew what he was talking about.

The problem with this theory is that there is no official word. There are just as many people claiming that they owned mags like this before the ban as people claiming that they are definitely post ban. The only things that are definitely post ban are ones that are made by companies that did not exist beforehand and from what I understand the ambi notch also happened after the ban.
 
Ambiguous. Worth $20.

No definitive pre ban features.

Also no definitive POST-Ban markings either.

The baseplate and follower are meaningless.

The high marking just mean you can't say, "it's without question pre-ban", I *doesn't* say, "clearly post-ban"

Glock sold quite a few high marked magazines before '94. There is a guy on NES who has some he got from his father, who died during the AWB, which means his father got them *before* '94.
 
Glock sold quite a few high marked magazines before '94. There is a guy on NES who has some he got from his father, who died during the AWB, which means his father got them *before* '94.
So do I understand and summarize correctly here?

Glock sees the assault ban coming into effect soon. They adjust the standard-capacity mag molds (#4) to have higher caliber and LEO markings (#6). But they still have a couple months to crank out legal standard-cap mags, so they produce some with the higher caliber but without the LEO marking (#7). Then the ban comes into effect and they can only produce #5-6. In the end it's up to the prosecutor to prove your mag was NOT part of that final run and therefore illegal for you. Glock has refused to specify in prior cases because they didn't keep track of the dates on so many variants.

Glock Mag Generations.jpg
 
Yeah, pretty much. Maybe. No one knows for sure but that seems to be about right.

As far as I'm concerned, marked LEO or has ambi notches = definitely post-ban. Anything else is either GTG or gray (which is also GTG basically).
 
So do I understand and summarize correctly here?

Glock sees the assault ban coming into effect soon. They adjust the standard-capacity mag molds (#4) to have higher caliber and LEO markings (#6). But they still have a couple months to crank out legal standard-cap mags, so they produce some with the higher caliber but without the LEO marking (#7). Then the ban comes into effect and they can only produce #5-6. In the end it's up to the prosecutor to prove your mag was NOT part of that final run and therefore illegal for you. Glock has refused to specify in prior cases because they didn't keep track of the dates on so many variants.
Finally someone who understands the issue and manufacturing processes. Just understand that thousands of Internet Know-It-Alls will refute everything you and I state about this.

Thanks.
 
So do I understand and summarize correctly here?

Glock sees the assault ban coming into effect soon. They adjust the standard-capacity mag molds (#4) to have higher caliber and LEO markings (#6). But they still have a couple months to crank out legal standard-cap mags, so they produce some with the higher caliber but without the LEO marking (#7). Then the ban comes into effect and they can only produce #5-6. In the end it's up to the prosecutor to prove your mag was NOT part of that final run and therefore illegal for you. Glock has refused to specify in prior cases because they didn't keep track of the dates on so many variants.

View attachment 278034
That is the exact story as told by the instructor in the Glock Armorers Class I took many years ago.
 
So do I understand and summarize correctly here?

Glock sees the assault ban coming into effect soon. They adjust the standard-capacity mag molds (#4) to have higher caliber and LEO markings (#6). But they still have a couple months to crank out legal standard-cap mags, so they produce some with the higher caliber but without the LEO marking (#7). Then the ban comes into effect and they can only produce #5-6. In the end it's up to the prosecutor to prove your mag was NOT part of that final run and therefore illegal for you. Glock has refused to specify in prior cases because they didn't keep track of the dates on so many variants.

Yes, that's exactly my understanding.

There's something about the *front* metal exposed notch I don't understand, which (I think) means post ban, but I wouldn't fight with anyone over that.
 
Yes, that's exactly my understanding.

There's something about the *front* metal exposed notch I don't understand, which (I think) means post ban, but I wouldn't fight with anyone over that.
Yes, the exposed metal in the front-center was for the Gen 4s ambi-mag release, 2006 (post-ban).
 
Yes, the exposed metal in the front-center was for the Gen 4s ambi-mag release, 2006 (post-ban).
The exposed metal in the front center was for the G21 SF.

Glock only made the G21 SF with such an ambitious release- although the exposed metal was also cut into 9mm mags as well.

That ambi release never took off after the G21 SF.

In fact is was discontinued do to that sort of ambi in the G21 SF accidentally releasing mags from cops who wear seatbelts.

When the Gen 4's came out, they were a reversible ambi. You could have it on the right or left side but not both.

The gen 4 compatible mags have a notch on the left AND the right side.

The gen 4's ALSO have the exposed metal in the front center.

glock-mag-generations.jpg
 
The ultimate solution to this entire subject matter in Massachusetts would be for a representative from the Massachusetts AG's office to receive a written, signed letter from a legal representative of Glock explaining in detail exactly what features are on each generation Glock magazines, and the dates of manufacture. However, it is my understanding that there has been some attempt to obtain such a letter with a summary of definitive features as they relate to dates of manufacture from Glock, without success. Glock, like most firearm manufacturers that sell firearms in the USA, began manufacturing magazines 24/7 prior to the effective date of the 1994 ban. They did in fact make preban 3rd generation magazines with the caliber designation high on the back of the magazines, without the military and civilian police restriction warnings underneath the caliber designations. These were and still are preban magazines. For some reason there are people on this site, and within government agencies in Massachusetts that are still repeating false and incorrect information concerning Glock magazine features as they relate to dates of manufacture.

The only clear delineation of preban v. post ban is with 3rd generation magazines that actually contain the restriction warning on the back of the magazines below the caliber designation, and with the newer 4th generation magazines (and fifth gen, etc.) that show a very clear change in design in the upper body/magazine lip area to a straight sloped angled shape of the right side of the magazine body from the right side magazine lip to the main magazine body. You can immediately see this difference when laying the magazines on the front side of the magazine body, as depicted in photos posted by others in this thread. These are the only two well-defined basic features that are a clear delineation between pre and post ban Glock magazines.

Unfortunately, we had federal judge named Young make an almost unbelievable ruling recently concerning restricting the sale of military style firearms to private citizens. I have seen too many poorly prepared cases being brought before judges that have personal prejudices concerning firearms. The original intent of Congress concerning the right to keep and bear arms, and a citizen's militia v. a standing army is found in Federalist No. 46:

Of Arms and the Law: Federalist No. 46: Madison's brilliance

The US Supreme Court made reference in US v. Miller concerning military style firearms:

"in deciding U.S. v. Miller the Court only declared that ownership of a firearm could be restricted if, and only if, it had no connection to military or militia activity"

The U.S. v Miller, revisited

The Massachusetts State Constitution clearly warns about standing armies, and makes it clear that keeping and bearing arms it is a right of The People:

The people have a right to keep and to bear arms for the common defence. And as, in time of peace, armies are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be maintained without the consent of the legislature; and the military power shall always be held in an exact subordination to the civil authority, and be governed by it. Pt. 1, art. 17 (enacted 1780).

Everyone in American society is defined as a civilian, with the exception of full time military personnel:

What is CIVILIAN? definition of CIVILIAN (Black's Law Dictionary)

What we need is a federal judge like Roger T. Benitez in Massachusetts:

Federal Court Slaps Down California’s Gun Magazine Ban

The firearm laws in Massachusetts are way too complex, ineffective, and are not applied and enforced uniformly throughout the Commonwealth. We need some lawyers that know how to do legal research properly, and construct logical legal arguments properly to bring successful legal challenges on the federal level with the hope that they would eventually encounter another Roger T. Benitez in the process. We don't need anymore ineffective, unconstitutional, "feel good" legislation. We need more well-armed law abiding citizens in the Commonwealth, along with stand your ground type legislation, and a clear understanding in all levels of government in this state that firearms ownership and the carrying of firearms is not a privilege, but a true constitutional right. This common sense approach would in reality reduce violent crime in Massachusetts, as it has in several other states where such legislation has been enacted.

Everyone should also keep in mind that large scale gun control of any kind did not exist in this country until the depression years. This fact, in and of itself, should make it clear what the original intent of the Founding Fathers was, and still is concerning the right to keep and bear arms.
 
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To 413Dan. The 9mm magazine you have posted photos of is an early post ban fourth generation magazine. The right side of the upper magazine lip area has a straight slope smooth contoured transition from the magazine lip to the main magazine body. Contrast this straight smooth contour right side slope to the left side of the same area of the magazine. You will see there is a stepped angled area on the left side of the magazine lip area. The previous version of late 3rd generation Glock magazines possesses stepped angled sides on both sides of the magazine lip side areas.
 
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To 413Dan. The 9mm magazine you have posted photos of is an early post ban fourth generation magazine. The right side of the upper magazine lip area has a straight slope smooth contoured transition from the magazine lip to the main magazine body. Contrast this straight smooth contour right side slope to the left side of the same area of the magazine. You will see there is a stepped angled area on the left side of the magazine lip area. The previous version of late 3rd generation Glock magazines possesses stepped angled sides on both sides of the magazine lip side areas.
And Glock will deny that you are correct. I was told directly by Glock General Counsel and Glock's lead tech that they asked Austria for info on design changes and Austria refused to tell them. So other than mag release cut-outs in the front and sides of their mags and the ban wording up the back, Glock USA is not sure even if you are! And per Glock's General Counsel they have essentially told this to at least 2 DAs that called him looking to jack up some MA resident (my conversation took place in 2006, so I'm sure more DAs have contacted him since then).
 
Mass DAs have done so throughout the years. What they don't seem to understand is that they can only bring charges when there really is prima facie evidence of a clear violation of the law. No matter how unconstitutional these laws may be, these DAs still need prima facie evidence. Someone's personal opinion of Glock magazine features is not prima facie evidence. A dated company engineering design print of a glock pistol magazine that has been certified by the keeper of the records for Glock is an example of prima facie evidence that is needed to bring a charge under Massachusetts' unconstitutional magazine restrictions laws. Glock is not the only company that has poorly documented design changes. Try and contact Remington Ammunition for example, and tell them you need documented dated design changes of ammunition case head designs for a forensic application. When Remington moved their ammunition plant to Arkansas, their records where so mixed up that you will receive a different answer to the same question each time you ask it of one of their employees concerning dates of manufacture of certain ammunition, and/or ammunition components. You can't legitimately charge someone based on personal opinion of a law. If the interpretation of a law is so confusing that different people have different interpretations of it, the law itself is unconstitutional just because it is not clearly written and understood by the average citizen.
 
Mass DAs have done so throughout the years. What they don't seem to understand is that they can only bring charges when there really is prima facie evidence of a clear violation of the law. No matter how unconstitutional these laws may be, these DAs still need prima facie evidence. Someone's personal opinion of Glock magazine features is not prima facie evidence. A dated company engineering design print of a glock pistol magazine that has been certified by the keeper of the records for Glock is an example of prima facie evidence that is needed to bring a charge under Massachusetts' unconstitutional magazine restrictions laws. Glock is not the only company that has poorly documented design changes. Try and contact Remington Ammunition for example, and tell them you need documented dated design changes of ammunition case head designs for a forensic application. When Remington moved their ammunition plant to Arkansas, their records where so mixed up that you will receive a different answer to the same question each time you ask it of one of their employees concerning dates of manufacture of certain ammunition, and/or ammunition components. You can't legitimately charge someone based on personal opinion of a law. If the interpretation of a law is so confusing that different people have different interpretations of it, the law itself is unconstitutional just because it is not clearly written and understood by the average citizen.
I'd like to believe you, but my experience tells me otherwise.

I was brought in as an expert witness for a criminal case at Norfolk Superior Court. The guy was charged with illegal possession of a firearm and ammunition without a license (he had an old expired FID and never tried to renew it) . . . it's a civil infraction, not criminal. He was charged with possession of a large capacity rifle and large capacity clips for said rifle (standard Norinco SKS) without a LTC . . . they had a 15 yr veteran MSP Trooper's Ballistics report supporting that a standard SKS was an 11 rd (+1 in the chamber) gun with 11 rd clips (for this gun, clips feed the internal mag). I have a copy of said ballistics report, otherwise I wouldn't believe a Trooper assigned to ballistics could be so stupid either. All of these charges were bullshit and there certainly was no prima facie evidence to support them.
 
Someone's personal opinion of Glock magazine features is not prima facie evidence.

I'd like to believe you, but my experience tells me otherwise.

All of these charges were bullshit and there certainly was no prima facie evidence to support them.

Without agreeing or disagreeing with either of these core arguments, I'll just say that "prima facie" means "sufficient to support a claim until proven otherwise". The important distinction is that this leaves room for change if newer or better facts support the opposite, but is otherwise a "take your word for it" when it comes to LE or DA's. That unfortunately mean that someone's personal option could be prima facie if they are in a position of authority (abuse in most instances), and the burden of proof would be on you to prove them wrong. That also means that in the case of the trooper report, that was also technically prima facie evidence.
 
I disagree. In criminal cases the burden of proof is solely the responsibility of the prosecution. Also, subjective personal opinions are not a basis for bringing criminal charges against anyone in our constitutional form of government. Objective evidence that does not rely on personal opinion is the only legitimate basis for a criminal prosecution, other than eye witness testimony. More people need to sue government employees for malicious prosecution to stop this abuse of office. There is also ample case law at both the state and federal level that makes it clear that the prosecution is required to prove their case, and that the defense is not require to prove anything.

Read through these links for a more thorough explanation:

What Is a Prima Facie Case?

Prosecution

Unfortunately, the people that populate the government in Massachusetts do not seem to understand that everyone is innocent until proven guilty. That the burden of proof is the sole responsibility of the prosecution. That everyone, including sworn law enforcement personnel, are in fact civilians and must obey all of the state and federal laws starting with constitutional law. That constitutional law is superior to state statutes and code of regulations, etc, etc. The reason for this is that Massachusetts does not have too many elected public offices left that possess the same level of practical authority, and most importantly funding, that most of the unelected bureaucracies possesses in the practical reality. For example, the elected county sheriffs in Massachusetts are in fact the only constitutional law enforcement officers defined in the Massachusetts state constitution, and are defined by state law as the chief conservators of the peace in their respective counties. Both of these legal facts make the elected county sheriff the absolute chief law enforcement officer in their respective counties. Yet, except for counties on the Cape (.i.e., Plymouth and Barnstable Counties) and possibly still some counties out in western Mass, most county sheriffs do not receive the necessary funding to do much else than act as the county jailers. It is less necessary for we The People to elect a county jailer than a chief executive constitutional law enforcement officer. This country is a constitutional republic, not a socialist democracy or a socialist police state. Read Article 4, Section 4 of the US Constitution. Also read the beginning of the Massachusetts state constitution, as it clearly states that Massachusetts is a republic. And, Article 6 of the US Constitution defines the federal constitution as the supreme law of the land. It is known as the supremacy clause of the federal constitution.

Len, I have worked on a number of cases in Massachusetts and elsewhere over the years, and I have also found that most expert witnesses for the prosecution are not very well educated and trained, except for maybe DNA profiling, and basic lab chemist work. I used to write very detailed forensic reports only to find that my reports were largely ignored and generally never read by many of the people involved in both sides of these cases, including the defense attorneys that hired me. In fact, the more technically detailed and documented my reports where, the more I was attacked for being "too technical". I found that most attorneys, whether they were prosecutors or defense attorneys relied on TV shows for their forensic education instead of having received some serious training that they should be required to undergo. This isn't going to change unless and until there are more lawsuits for malicious prosecution, and there is an effort to restore a constitutional form of government in Massachusetts and the other Socialist states like New York, New Jersey, etc. Furthermore, government is supposed to be an elected public service set of agencies, not a for profit set of unelected bureaucracies that doesn't answer directly to The People. This is supposed to be a government for The People, by The People.
 
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