Manually decocking a CZ S2..

daekken

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Just got back from my first trip with my CZ Shadow 2. I decocked with a live round about 15 times with no NDs. I tried both the thumb roll and the pinch and found the pinch was better for me. Thumb and forefinger on the hammer with a little knuckle/thumb overhanging to block the path to the firing pin a bit. Wasn't particularly scary.

The most common reason I've heard for the S2 not having a decocker was that it can make obtaining a very nice trigger a little more difficult. Reminds me a lot of the 1911 series 70/80 debates with the firing pin block.
 

milktree

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Just got back from my first trip with my CZ Shadow 2. I decocked with a live round about 15 times with no NDs. I tried both the thumb roll and the pinch and found the pinch was better for me. Thumb and forefinger on the hammer with a little knuckle/thumb overhanging to block the path to the firing pin a bit. Wasn't particularly scary.
If it were me, I'd do that practice with a case with a primer, but no bullet or powder. If I mess it up I'd much rather it go "pop" than "bang" (and associated ouchie)

The most common reason I've heard for the S2 not having a decocker was that it can make obtaining a very nice trigger a little more difficult. Reminds me a lot of the 1911 series 70/80 debates with the firing pin block.
Is there something about the S2's sear or action that causes that? I have four pistols with decockers, and the decocking mechanism doesn't ever touch the sear or trigger mechanism when you pull the trigger.

The firing pin block is a different problem, it gets involved when you pull the trigger.
 

daekken

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If it were me, I'd do that practice with a case with a primer, but no bullet or powder. If I mess it up I'd much rather it go "pop" than "bang" (and associated ouchie)



Is there something about the S2's sear or action that causes that? I have four pistols with decockers, and the decocking mechanism doesn't ever touch the sear or trigger mechanism when you pull the trigger.

The firing pin block is a different problem, it gets involved when you pull the trigger.
9mm is one caliber I don't (as of yet) reload for, so I didn't have that option. I was at the range, with it pointed in a safe direction at the berm, etc. I wanted to make sure that if I did have any issues I'd get a feel for what the margin of error (i.e., hammer fall distance) would be. Plus to some degree I wanted to "train like you fight (or compete)." Knowing that a live round was in there, even pointed safely, helps replicate the same conditions.

As for the lack of decocker, I am only relaying what I had read on multiple threads on multiple sites. Consistently I read that the presence of the decocker led to a less pleasant trigger and since the S2 is really geared for competition, it's a very relevant point of consideration. I know that I was originally going to get a CZ75 Tactical (which has a decocker) until the Shadow 2 "fell" into my lap. I don't regret my choice. I already love this gun. While the need to manually decock isn't as easy as pressing a lever, at no point today was I that concerned I was going to discharge a shot

I've run a P226 with a decocker and a G19 in USPSA so decocking manually hasn't been a thing for me until now. Slow and steady wins the race but I think there may be some degree of truth to the "Am I overthinking this?" line in the original post.
 

milktree

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I think the deal with the rules is they wanted all non decock CZs starting with the hammer down all the way. Think about it like a 92FS, the hammer is down all the
way when the gun is decocked and ready to fire. Same thing with a P series Ruger or something like that. A sig P226 doesn't do this, because of the intercept notch and the spring, a P226 enforces starting from the intercept notch.
The decocker on my P226 drops the hammer all the way, just like if you lowered the hammer with the trigger pulled. Go check yours.

The hammer's spring doesn't ever push the hammer all the way to the firing pin, the hammer's inertia takes it beyond the spring's push and into the firing pin. It's a weird setup I haven't seen elsewhere.
 

drgrant

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The decocker on my P226 drops the hammer all the way, just like if you lowered the hammer with the trigger pulled. Go check yours.

The hammer's spring doesn't ever push the hammer all the way to the firing pin, the hammer's inertia takes it beyond the spring's push and into the firing pin. It's a weird setup I haven't seen elsewhere.
Never seen it on any of the 6 p series guns I owned. The mechanism unloads the hammer into the safety intercept notch, I've never owned one where the hammer went all the way... unless you pulled the trigger, of course....

-Mike
 

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Tried to find a better video, but you can plainly see when he decocks it, the hammer never goes all the way down, and instead right into the notch....

 

milktree

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Never seen it on any of the 6 p series guns I owned. The mechanism unloads the hammer into the safety intercept notch, I've never owned one where the hammer went all the way... unless you pulled the trigger, of course....

-Mike
Maybe I'm missing the point of lowering the hammer. I thought the point was so all DA capable guns, including DA/SA ones, start from a full DA trigger pull, right?

On my P226, the final resting point of the hammer is *EXACTLY THE SAME*, regardless of if I lower the hammer with my thumb and the trigger pulled all the way, or I use the decocking lever.

*While* using the decocking lever, the hammer can't hit the firing pin (which is a good feature), but as soon as I release the lever, it's impossible to tell the difference between lowering the hammer manually, or using the lever.

I'd be really surprised if I had some weirdo mutant P226 that was different from all six you've owned.

Here's mine: (sorry for the rubbish video, low light and older GoPro)


You can see that the hammer spring doesn't actually push the hammer onto the firing pin, inertia takes it that last bit. And that the final hammer location is the same, regardless of how I drop the hammer.
 

drgrant

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Maybe I'm missing the point of lowering the hammer. I thought the point was so all DA capable guns, including DA/SA ones, start from a full DA trigger pull, right?
Well, not quite. Guns like a USP, a P2000, etc. or a Sig P series "normally" start from the safety intercept notch / "barely cocked" state. As does a CZ BD series pistol with a decocker. This isn't a huge difference, but it's a big difference from something like a Beretta 92 where the hammer is definitely all the way down.. Or an S&W 3rd gen, let's say.

Now, that being said, in practical terms, there really isn't much of a difference. I am thinking USPSA rules mandate that "hammer fuly down" thing because of consistency, although I would argue the advantage of starting partially cocked is
basically negligible. And I sure as hell wouldn't complain if they changed the rules
to allow you to start there, because its somewhat safer (and much easier) to get the gun to that partially cocked state.

On my P226, the final resting point of the hammer is *EXACTLY THE SAME*, regardless of if I lower the hammer with my thumb and the trigger pulled all the way, or I use the decocking lever.
Yeah, that's because the rebound spring (I think that's what it's called) literally forces it back into the safety intercept notch. The fact remains though that it's not 100% down. The hammer is only ever 100% down on a USP or a Pxxx if you fired the gun. (interesting note though, USP doesn't have a rebound spring, so the hammer will stay all the way down if the gun was unloaded. )

*While* using the decocking lever, the hammer can't hit the firing pin (which is a good feature), but as soon as I release the lever, it's impossible to tell the difference between lowering the hammer manually, or using the lever.
The difference is if the trigger is being pulled the safety intercept notch cam or whatever that thing is called, is out of action, and if you let the hammer go with the trigger pulled, that gun is going to fire, lol. (because the act of holding the trigger has now defeated both the FP safety and the intercept function). Now of course if you let go of the trigger early enough in the process, and then lost control of the hammer "later" the gun wouldn't discharge because either the intercept cam comes back and the FP safety is definitely re-enabled because the trigger bar isn't pushing up against the plunger. (ETA: pls excuse my mechanical ignorance, it might not be
a "cam"- I just forget exactly what it looks like, it's been about 6 years since I detail
stripped a P series trigger group).

One confusing thing on some P series pistols is when you decock them, some decock violently, like a P220, others, are much "softer" but the mechanicals are pretty much the same in principle. Even on a P220 if you ride the lever with enough force, it lowers the hammer slower.

Again, USP is similar, except nearly all of those are violent... but effect is the same, it only does it into the notch, the hammer will not travel any further, unless the cam/lever/whatever is sheared off or something.

I'd be really surprised if I had some weirdo mutant P226 that was different from all six you've owned.

Here's mine: (sorry for the rubbish video, low light and older GoPro)


You can see that the hammer spring doesn't actually push the hammer onto the firing pin, inertia takes it that last bit. And that the final hammer location is the same, regardless of how I drop the hammer.
Yes, because it works very similar to the USP system, it's just unloading the spring so all the energy gets dumped into the hammer. and after it travels like 90%, that last 10% or whatever it is, it's just "freewheeling". .

I think we're just getting twisted with semantics at this point. Admittedly I'm being pedantic (you said it drops all the way, it clearly doesn't, but into the notch) but I guess what I'm getting at, is a P series hammer never "rests" all the way down, well, except for that one moment you're firing the gun. Or maybe it would (possibly) get "stuck" there if that rebound spring was broken.

-Mike
 
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drgrant

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A fun test if this were easy to do... (but its probably not).

If you were able to coat the teat on the firing pin with dykem or something, something that would transfer.... no matter how fast you hit that decocker, that hammer is never hitting the pin. It almost seems like it does, but it
doesn't. If you have a P series (DA/SA) that does anything other than drop the hammer into that notch with the decocker, then something is broken.

-Mike
 
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