Massachusetts Bill HD.4420 "An act to modernize gun Laws"

[SIGNES]

Gunny was a special guy. Very unassuming. He owned and operated a sniper school in Virginia Beach. PD's like LAPD and Atlanta PD sent their best shooters to his school.
When federal ammo wanted to make their now famous 168 gr. Match grade .308 ammo they went to gunny and asked him to help create and perfect it. I had both Gunny and his wife Joe up here for a visit before he passed. During the visit I told him I was having trouble finding that particular ammo. I didn't know he was involved with Federal at the time. He laughed and asked how much I would like. Joe complained that her garage was full of pallets of it and she couldn't get her car in the garage. Federal sent it to him by the pallet. The pallet no less.

I used to have a limitless supply when working with a trainer who was given his ammo by a very anti municipality as part of his work.
Oddly, every round of that smelled like victory when fired.

 

[Mesatchornug]

But it doesn't. What Bruen put halt to were administrative hurdles without objective standards to get the permitted. Precluded two tiered permits that were about preserving the states unconstitutional use of subjective criteria.(In part on the basis that those subjective criteria were racist but heaven forfend you'd make an argument that successfully got us back gun rights using commie language)

It was a win for 'shall issue' over 'may issue'. It touches on other questions (safe spaces) but the case is explicitly about may vs shall issue. It also has nothing in it that explicitly precludes "shall issue whoever the hell we get around to it."

I'd suggest you take your own advice from further down. Here, I'll help:
p. 36, footnote 9:

That said, because any permitting scheme can be put toward abusive ends, we do not rule out constitutional challenges to shall-issue regimes where, for example, lengthy wait times in processing license applications or
exorbitant fees deny ordinary citizens their right to public carry.

I.E., get cute and drag out the process, and we will accept the case; and you can expect to not like our findings.

Bruen helps, but it doesn't solve all the problems.

You've moved the goalposts. No one has said it does.

Again, this is the beginning of a war, not the end.

 

[SIGNES]

>>I'd suggest you take your own advice from further down. Here, I'll help:
p. 36, footnote 9:

That said, because any permitting scheme can be put toward abusive ends, we do not rule out constitutional challenges to shall-issue regimes where, for example, lengthy wait times in processing license applications or
exorbitant fees deny ordinary citizens their right to public carry.

I.E., get cute and drag out the process, and we will accept the case; and you can expect to not like our findings.<<

This is why I like engaging with you despite our disagreements. That's a good find!

But, again, file tomorrow, won't see findings for a year plus. In a year who knows who's on the court? I don't know when NY added that social media crap (but I'd love to find out). but is there now, post Bruen and there's no case filed that I am aware of and its absolutely egregiously abusive.

 

[Mesatchornug]

I don't know when NY added that social media crap (but I'd love to find out). but is there now, post Bruen and there's no case filed that I am aware of and its absolutely egregiously abusive.

It was all in their Bruen response bill. Again, not surprising - Hochul is a dictatorial windbag.

 

[mothybee]

Well I'm not a lawyer, but I've been shooting for a little while now . Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock was a friend of mine and taught me a thing or two, but you've probably never heard of him soooooo.
As for handguns, I shot on a Marine Corps shooting team in Okinawa for a bit. I've competed in steel plate shooting here in the states and won a year end championship once and when hunting boar I use a Freedom Arms 4 3/4 " 454 Cassul because its more fun than picking them off from a distance with a rifle, but listening to your challenge I'm sure you're much better than me. Now you know a little about me and I still know nothing about you but what the heck. When, where and for how much?

Ya, but could you out shoot him in a courtroom?

 

[SIGNES]

It was all in their Bruen response bill. Again, not surprising - Hochul is a dictatorial windbag.

FFS...Thanks!

I guess no matter what happens in MA, we're going to see how much longer than the year so far it will take in NY. That it's been that long already is not promising news.

 

[Picton]

You're not paying attention to my points, so I'll stop. Case in point:

It touches on other questions (safe spaces) but the case is explicitly about may vs shall issue. It also has nothing in it that explicitly precludes "shall issue whoever the hell we get around to it."

Bruen did far, far more than "touch on" the question of safe spaces: that "touch," which you are so dismissive about, is the main reason for the injunction on Hochul's response law. And the same would happen here.

But, again, you're in your own reality, and in no mood to be convinced. I think that's too bad. But? You yourself knew this was coming: you acknowledged from the start you'd be flamed. So, congrats. You seem to have achieved your goal.

However, DO NOT presume the rest of us have any wish to stop fighting just because you've got no stomach for it. These are our rights. Most of us are tired of having them infringed, and we're not looking for you to suggest further infringements.

 

[Mesatchornug]

FFS...Thanks!

I guess no matter what happens in MA, we're going to see how much longer than the year so far it will take in NY. That it's been that long already is not promising news.

In good news, most of 4420 is unoriginal. So when NY loses, we'll gain the benefit of their going first into the breech.

The more these people flail, the more doors they close on themselves. When their defenses include "check out this Jim Crow law for disarming freedmen" or "a semiauto AR-15 is basically indistinguishable fromo a select-fire M-16" we stand to be the beneficiaries...something about stopping your enemy from making a mistake?

 

[SIGNES]

In good news, most of 4420 is unoriginal. So when NY loses, we'll gain the benefit of their going first into the breech.

The more these people flail, the more doors they close on themselves. When their defenses include "check out this Jim Crow law for disarming freedmen" or "a semiauto AR-15 is basically indistinguishable fromo a select-fire M-16" we stand to be the beneficiaries...something about stopping your enemy from making a mistake?

It's possible that the root of our disagreements are ,at their core:

- my old bastard who's watched the whole political, social and even artistic climate just get worse every day grumpy fatalistic cynicism
vs
- what seems like your 'informed (but to me) unfounded optimism

No idea how old you are but I'm well into the back 9 on the golf course of life and, in journey similar to the gentleman above, I just wanna have only enough crap as absolutely necessary in my life.

 

[AJK129]

It's possible that the root of our disagreements are ,at their core:

- my old bastard who's watched the whole political, social and even artistic climate just get worse every day grumpy fatalistic cynicism
vs
- what seems like your 'informed (but to me) unfounded optimism

No idea how old you are but I'm well into the back 9 on the golf course of life and, in journey similar to the gentleman above, I just wanna have only enough crap as absolutely necessary in my life.

The part thats getting everyone upset is that you're willing to give up our rights because you don't feel you need them because you're older

 

[SIGNES]

The part thats getting everyone upset is that you're willing to give up our rights because you don't feel you need them because you're older

I don't know why this keeps getting lost. Let's look at NY. We got 'shall issue' and now post Bruen, to have an LTC you have to tell them about your membership on "Weather Girl Scissor Figjht" dot com to get under penalty of perjury if you don't. That is an almost surreal encroachment on your rights and it's their response to Bruen. That's not a 'maybe' of a 4420, that's live right now. We are going to lose rights. That's going to happen. This legislature will pass a horrific show. This Governor is itching to sign it yesterday. Maybe, if @Mesatchornug 's optimism works out, we'll get them back. All I'm pitching is figuring out what concessions could be made to mitigate immediate losses, and still hope the courts fix it all later. How long, if 4420 had passed, before your LGS folded while we wait for the courts.

 

[Mesatchornug]

It's possible that the root of our disagreements are ,at their core:

- my old bastard who's watched the whole political, social and even artistic climate just get worse every day grumpy fatalistic cynicism
vs
- what seems like your 'informed (but to me) unfounded optimism

No idea how old you are but I'm well into the back 9 on the golf course of life and, in journey similar to the gentleman above, I just wanna have only enough crap as absolutely necessary in my life.

I promise I'm not laughing at you.

Next to you, I'm sure I'm but a babe. I've spent most of my comparatively short life managing certain brain weasels such that "optimist" I ain't.

There are interesting benefits to having spent my life finding new and awful things to tell myself about myself. Among them are the knowledge that nobody can call me worse, and the release of having no trust for anybody.

It also means I'm comfortable looking at things and saying "this is going to hurt" because that's nothing new.

 

[Mesatchornug]

I don't know why this keeps getting lost. Let's look at NY. We got 'shall issue' and now post Bruen, to have an LTC you have to tell them about your membership on "Weather Girl Scissor Figjht" dot com to get under penalty of perjury if you don't. That is an almost surreal encroachment on your rights and it's their response to Bruen. That's not a 'maybe' of a 4420, that's live right now.

Except it's enjoined - the courts are already working there.

[EDIT] This may not be true. At least Corbett v. Hochul may not have achieved the injunction. I'll need to read more on it.

Corbett v. Hochul, 1:22-cv-05867 - CourtListener.com

Docket for Corbett v. Hochul, 1:22-cv-05867 — Brought to you by Free Law Project, a non-profit dedicated to creating high quality open legal information.

www.courtlistener.com

 

[BobR51]

This...

 

[For Sale]

You forgot "sanctimonious," wait sorry that one was in my head, carry on.

Desanctimonious?

 

[Mass-diver]

OK. What's your point?

There is no ban, because anyone can have one if they're willing to spend the money. Period.

Restricted? Sure. Pain in the ass? Yep. Unfair? Absolutely.

But the reality is that anyone can get a MG if they're willing to jump through the right hoops. Sometimes "the right hoops" include "move to a different town."

And by continuing to call it a "ban" it cheapens the concept to the point of mockery.

"some towns are shitty and won't issue MG licences" is absolutely true. But that's not the same thing as "Banned in Massachusetts."

Supressors/silencers are actually prohibited by law in Mass, so that's a better argument. (even though you can still have them if you go the FFL07/SOT route, I think)

Lol, what?

 

[VetteGirlMA]

There's a continuum. Would it be great if you (or I) had the time/stamina to run? Yep. Are we gonna? Nope. But we can toss a few bucks to whoever runs against Day. We can put a yard sign out for whoever runs against him. There's a lot of productive between sit at our keyboards and running ourselves. A lot of us got on the phone and hand wrote emails and real letters to our reps. That absolutely helped and, we're gonna need a lot more come the fall.

I called both of my reps and emailed them. If this comes up again I am 100% down and you can quote me on that to go and testify in public in Boston. If I don't then you have the right to call me a coward.

I've found the greatest way to defend my arguments is from the 4 boxes diner youtube channel. His goal he's stated in the channel is to make people the smartest in the room. He brings up the interesting points and quotes and tidbits that are needed and that's my goal. On twitter I spend time doing the research on how the left is defending gun laws in court. I've had liberals tell me "you're full of sh*t, you're making things up" and then I hit them with the evidence, the actual court room transcripts, the audio of the case being heard in court. They shut up instantly. It's worked every single time. I am what you call an accidental activist. I didn't want to be. I wanted to be left alone, but the left poked the bear for free campaign cash, so now I'm taking the battle to them. I'm making sure that entire world witnesses the democrats saying out loud "Your honor we're racists and we want you to uphold this law on the grounds of racism". The press won't do the job. The conservatives are too busy navel gazing over whatever bullsh*t Dylan Mulvaney is doing or some other stupid irrelevant sh*t. The right in this country, right here right now, does not deserve the mantle of leadership because frankly speaking they suck.

I'm even getting to the point where I have begun unfollowing some conservative voices out there because they are grifters plain and simple. They harvest whatever money then can from dummies who want to give them their daily dose of confirmation bias.

The country is ripe for the taking but the right is too stupid to do anything. It's like they get to the 99 yard line, drop the ball and run the other way. It's pathetic.

 

[Biggles77]

I've been trying to track this thread for relevant HD4420 stuff but it's devolved into some quasi philosophical bullshit pissing contest thread.

Can you guys knock it off or take it somewhere else please?

Or better yet spend that wordsmith energy and call/email/visit your Representatives and/or donate some $$ to GOAL?

 

[SIGNES]

I called both of my reps and emailed them. If this comes up again I am 100% down and you can quote me on that to go and testify in public in Boston. If I don't then you have the right to call me a coward.

I've found the greatest way to defend my arguments is from the 4 boxes diner youtube channel. His goal he's stated in the channel is to make people the smartest in the room. He brings up the interesting points and quotes and tidbits that are needed and that's my goal. On twitter I spend time doing the research on how the left is defending gun laws in court. I've had liberals tell me "you're full of sh*t, you're making things up" and then I hit them with the evidence, the actual court room transcripts, the audio of the case being heard in court. They shut up instantly. It's worked every single time. I am what you call an accidental activist. I didn't want to be. I wanted to be left alone, but the left poked the bear for free campaign cash, so now I'm taking the battle to them. I'm making sure that entire world witnesses the democrats saying out loud "Your honor we're racists and we want you to uphold this law on the grounds of racism". The press won't do the job. The conservatives are too busy navel gazing over whatever bullsh*t Dylan Mulvaney is doing or some other stupid irrelevant sh*t. The right in this country, right here right now, does not deserve the mantle of leadership because frankly speaking they suck.

I'm even getting to the point where I have begun unfollowing some conservative voices out there because they are grifters plain and simple. They harvest whatever money then can from dummies who want to give them their daily dose of confirmation bias.

The country is ripe for the taking but the right is too stupid to do anything. It's like they get to the 99 yard line, drop the ball and run the other way. It's pathetic.

As the Mandalorian would say... "This is the way."

 

[Picton]

I've been trying to track this thread for relevant HD4420 stuff but it's devolved into some quasi philosophical bullshit pissing contest thread.

Can you guys knock it off or take it somewhere else please?

Or better yet spend that wordsmith energy and call/email/visit your Representatives and/or donate some $$ to GOAL?

Nothing new is going to come out until the fall. This is what the thread has turned into. That's what happens on forums: threads go their own way.

There won't be any more "relevant HD4420 stuff" for months.

 

[Mesatchornug]

I've been trying to track this thread for relevant HD4420 stuff

HD.4420 was paused several days ago. For this docket, there's nothing left except to

[devolve] into some quasi philosophical bullshit pissing contest thread.


Can you guys knock it off or take it somewhere else please?

Or better yet spend that wordsmith energy and call/email/visit your Representatives and/or donate some $$ to GOAL?

These are hardly mutually exclusive.

 

[Dadstoys]

Y'all having so much fun pretending there's hope without negotiation, just for giggles, I checked because I expect it to be like, 20 and sweet leaping Jebus on a Pogo Stick....

There are 67 Glocks on the 3/2023 approved roster. Sixty-mutha-@#$'in Seven of them, on the "Approved Firearms Roster" and a ''Consumer Protection Regulation" means you can't legally buy any of them new. Can't (Frame transfers notwithstanding [Which, BTW, would have ended as an option under 4420]) buy from the list of approved to own with an LTC published by the state of MA because of another law in an entirely separate part of the code, prohibits them.

The people with the power can, and do, play every dirty trick in the book. The 'all or nothing' crowd are bringing wet noodles to a gun fight.

Seven new models (across makers) were added to the list they call "Hundreds of approved" at the last update. Seven. To a list full of no longer made new and even including models from companies that no longer exist (by the names stipulated and, therefore de facto (those words again) not options)

(Yes, I am fully aware that manufacturers have to submit for destructive testing to get on the list.)

How the hell do you even imagine you're going to 'win it all back' against a system that plays like that unless you can outflank them by letting them act like they won so they can keep getting red-shirt votes?

They get jammed up by the courts and then they'll decide Cerakote, Blueing and FNC finishes are toxic to Piping Plovers and get us that way.

Negotiate and enshrine your rights in Mass law as best you can and let them say they won.

JFC , will someone drop an anvil on this troll ?
Enough is enough.

 

[SIGNES]

I've been trying to track this thread for relevant HD4420 stuff but it's devolved into some quasi philosophical bullshit pissing contest thread.

Can you guys knock it off or take it somewhere else please?

Or better yet spend that wordsmith energy and call/email/visit your Representatives and/or donate some $$ to GOAL?

4420 progress (terrible word in this case) has been paused: GOAL - Mariano Statement that's the news. As of now, there's nothing new since then we can react to. Hence the rekindling of discussion larger philosophical positions.

More likely than not, whatever the next round is will have a different number and, with that, a new thread. (This assuming we don't wake one morning and find it already passed after a 1AM public hearing held in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”)

 

[VetteGirlMA]

In good news, most of 4420 is unoriginal. So when NY loses, we'll gain the benefit of their going first into the breech.

The more these people flail, the more doors they close on themselves. When their defenses include "check out this Jim Crow law for disarming freedmen" or "a semiauto AR-15 is basically indistinguishable fromo a select-fire M-16" we stand to be the beneficiaries...something about stopping your enemy from making a mistake?

There is no doubt in my mind that the left is making huge mistakes in court. They're trying to change the Bruen decision and I can tell you right now as long Clarence Thomas is sitting on SCOTUS that ain't gonna sit well with him. The left is so scared of Thomas ruling on 2A again that they are running all kinds of stories about him and democrats were saying 'he's illegitimate'. But armed with facts helps and I showed lefties Ruth Bader Ginsburg taking money and deciding on cases where she took money and they shut up instantly.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The best strategy is not to "compromise" or "appease", but insist each bad aspect of legislation be handled as a single bill - and fight each one independently. If you insist on a strategy of "we win all or we lose all", you might get the later.

In a MA like environment, it is possible (even probable) for many bad things to pass when tacked on to a "must pass" bill. I'm not talking about agreeing with ghost gun legislation, supporting it, or offering in pseudo-compromise, but insisting it be handle as a single dedicated bill. Then, we can separately argue the merits of "Cancel Bruen with a private property ban", "Retroactively ban some guns", "Make people serialize magazines", "Declare barrels to be guns", etc. We can then argue the merits of Ghost Gun legislation by pointing out hobbyist needs, and the importance of preserving the ability of people to make guns unknown to the government and without requiring a license to buy all of the components to do so.

In a pro-gun environment like TX (Until they import enough proto-Democrats) one bad piece of gun legislation in a "dozens of changes" package would enough to get it deep-six the entire thing. In MA, one bad piece that a super-majority of legislators support may be enough to have a bunch of changes that never would have stood on their own to pass.

The same is true in the courtroom. Fight a broad bill in a MA or First Circuit court arguing the entire bill should be ruled unconstitutional and you lose if the court can uphold one thing in the bill - generally by writing a decision justifying that thing and possibly even ignoring the others. Target one specific item and you might, emphasis might, win.

And always remember - no deal will be honored in the long term. From outright betrayal, to "it was other legislators who agreed to that, not us", any loss of rights is a stepping stone to further loss built upon that. The only time the needle moves in our direction based on state action was when the LTC expanded from 4 year to 6 (after changing from 5 years for $25 to 4 years for $100).

The disrespect for the constitution is amazing - with the speaker specifically citing the need to change MGL to undo the Bruen decision. The only direct effect is the state went from about 92% unrestricted to 100% unrestricted, and those unfortunate 8%ers where restricted because of their residence town, not their qualifications or record.

 

[VetteGirlMA]

4420 progress (terrible word in this case) has been paused: GOAL - Mariano Statement that's the news. As of now, there's nothing new since then we can react to. Hence the rekindling of discussion larger philosophical positions.

More likely than not, whatever the next round is will have a different number and, with that, a new thread. (This assuming we don't wake one morning and find it already passed after a 1AM public hearing held in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”)

One more thing I did a few weeks ago. I connected with a bunch of Massachusetts liberal gun owners. They have their own forum on Reddit, they don't come here. When and if this comes back I plan on working with those people on this law. We have a common threat. We may agree on literally nothing but guns but one thing is for certain the democrats are the enemy of the people and the only way to stop them is to confront them and make it painful. There is not a democrat alive that is going to risk their state house seat when they see the left and right plotting together against them. I'll go and hold a sign on the streets with the socialist gun club I don't give a sh*t. It's not like I'm going to get socialism cooties. I took the vaxx I'm safe. I would love to send a message so profoundly clear to the Massachusetts democratic party that this never comes up ever again.

 

[M60]

Ya, but could you out shoot him in a courtroom?

Lol.who knows. I do know that shooting is shooting no matter where it takes place. Yes I know. Its not what you meant.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

There is also nothing nearly so SCOTUS- certain that, for example, would have prima facie prevented the 'banned unless permission granted' on private property aspect of 4420. There's nothing absolutely certain that the objective criteria required by Bruen be sane objective criteria

The private property issue is complex, and there is some existing precedent (varies by state) regarding quasi-public property to which the general public is implicitly invited (Store, Malls, Unposted undeveloped land, etc.)

In some jurisdictions courts have ruled, for example, that free speech protection, in a limited form applies to shopping centers open to the public and depending on the state can include things like wearing clothes with politically incorrect statements (like "There are only two sexes" or "Protect unborn life"), soliciting for petitions, collecting ballot signatures; handing out leaflets; certain political activity; etc. It is not as simple or clear cut when private property serves, in many respects, as a gathering place open to the public. In other words, no easy answer.

The NY style "specific permission required" is clearly an attempt to cancel Bruen. There is a similar law in Chicago - a simple 3x5 sign on the entrance turns you property into a "criminal offense to carry a gun even with a concealed carry permit" offense, rendering a carry permit all but useless unless you are going to one specific destination that does not have such a sign (very much in the minority from what I have seen).

 

[Dadstoys]

You forgot "sanctimonious," wait sorry that one was in my head, carry on.

I got a couple that would get me banned if it even let me type in in.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

One more thing I did a few weeks ago. I connected with a bunch of Massachusetts liberal gun owners. They have their own forum on Reddit, they don't come here. When and if this comes back I plan on working with those people on this law. We have a common threat. We may agree on literally nothing but guns but one thing is for certain the democrats are the enemy of the people and the only way to stop them is to confront them and make it painful. There is not a democrat alive that is going to risk their state house seat when they see the left and right plotting together against them. I'll go and hold a sign on the streets with the socialist gun club I don't give a sh*t. It's not like I'm going to get socialism cooties. I took the vaxx I'm safe. I would love to send a message so profoundly clear to the Massachusetts democratic party that this never comes up ever again.

That has to be balanced against the fear of going against the speaker and getting a basement office and shitty or no committee assignments.

Roll call voting on the bill to remove the term limit on the speaker position was a Soviet style setup. The person you will vote for or against controls your work environment, and may consider how you vote on a bill impacting his position in the apparatus in determining allocation of resources. NOBODY has the guts to tell the truth - "I dared not vote against him", but rather comments like "He is doing a great job, we don't want to lose him due to a term limit" was common. Yeah, right.