Moving from red town to green town

Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
662
Likes
74
Location
Natick, MA
Feedback: 5 / 0 / 0
Hello all you fine folks!

I currently live in Brookline and have T&H on my LTC-A. My wife and I are thinking of selling our place and buying a house in either Arlington, Natick, Needham, Newton, or Dedham. I know I need to send registered mail within 30 days of moving to both new CoP, old CoP, and FRB.

But, let's talk about getting rid of those restrictions... I've asked to have them removed a few times in Brookline, which is a lost cause. How exactly do I go about getting them removed in my new town? I did some searching and it looks like I need to get my license "early expired" by Brookline, then reissued wherever I move, but what happens to my firearms if it takes too long to get the new one issued by the new town? Will the new town treat it as a renewal or a fresh application?

I'd love some guidance on this, and maybe some steps to follow.

Thanks!
 
There are two things that need to be done, assuming that Brookline will not remove the restrictions:

1. Brookline must expire your current license.

2. You apply to the PD for a new license.

Note that the expired license will place you in violation of MGL, but it's a civil offense, not a criminal one (like being unlicensed is). This is because you will not have applied for a renewal prior to expiration of the current license.

There is no real difference between a renewal and a new application, except that towns are not required to verify you have taken a safety course on the renewal.

Chances are most green towns will issue without a problem,

Your problem is Brookline. The Brookline PD will realize the only reason you are asking for an early expiration is so you can get an unrestricted LTC, and their holy jihad is to prevent as many "unspecial" people from carrying as possible. You can expect your request for an early expiration to be denied.

I suggest you contact Comm2A before starting on your quest to have Brookline do an early expiration. I am intrigued by the possibility of bringing a district court action requesting the court to compel a PD to expire an active LTC. That one should really get the court scratching it's head.
 
There are two things that need to be done, assuming that Brookline will not remove the restrictions:

1. Brookline must expire your current license.

2. You apply to the PD for a new license.

Note that the expired license will place you in violation of MGL, but it's a civil offense, not a criminal one (like being unlicensed is). This is because you will not have applied for a renewal prior to expiration of the current license.

There is no real difference between a renewal and a new application, except that towns are not required to verify you have taken a safety course on the renewal.

Chances are most green towns will issue without a problem,

Your problem is Brookline. The Brookline PD will realize the only reason you are asking for an early expiration is so you can get an unrestricted LTC, and their holy jihad is to prevent as many "unspecial" people from carrying as possible. You can expect your request for an early expiration to be denied.

I suggest you contact Comm2A before starting on your quest to have Brookline do an early expiration. I am intrigued by the possibility of bringing a district court action requesting the court to compel a PD to expire an active LTC. That one should really get the court scratching it's head.


Thanks for the info Rob, I knew most of it, but it's always good to check with this stuff. In MA it seems really easy to become a PP or felon on a technicality. Of the cities I listed, which is most pro-2a? I looked and all of them should issue ALP based on the "guide to gun rights in your town" thread, except Newton seems iffy.

As soon as I move and get all of that settled - months from now, seeing as we haven't even listed our current place yet, I'll probably contact Comm2a for ideas about dealing with Brookline. I would love O'Leary to have to argue in court that I should be forced to keep a firearms license I don't want. Except I don't have the time and after I buy another house - won't have the money, to fight him...
 
Rob,

Although technically you are correct, when Jason Guida was Director of FRB he assured me that the grace period would apply in a case like this.

I wouldn't bet on it, but I throw it out there for whatever it is worth.

Off the top of my head thought below!

- If both towns agree to do as requested, perhaps handing in the written app prior to old town actually expiring the current LTC would give legal coverage . . . even though the new town can not process it until after expiration of the current LTC??
 
Except I don't have the time and after I buy another house - won't have the money, to fight him...

I cannot guarantee anything, however, you should at least run your case by Comm2A. We take on "interesting" cases and have been known to provide full or partial funding. If you go this route, I suggest you do so before you start negotiations with Brookline so you can lay the proper foundation for litigation .

If both towns agree to do as requested
Very true, however, one of the towns in this discussion is Brookline [rolleyes]

Although technically you are correct, when Jason Guida was Director of FRB he assured me that the grace period would apply in a case like this.
Almost irrelevant. I have never heard of possession on an expired license being prosecuted (once defense counsel points out the law to the ADA, and the ADA calls the FRB to confirm - yes, it has happened); the penalty is a civil fine only (reduced by the recent change in law); and there is no jail/prison time possible so it is not a disqualifier.

If both towns agree to do as requested, perhaps handing in the written app prior to old town actually expiring the current LTC would give legal coverage . . . even though the new town can not process it until after expiration of the current LTC??
The new town can immediately initiate processing - obtaining the mental commitment record from the state; running the BOP and III, getting the chief or licensing officer to make a decision.; etc. They just can't run it through MIRCS until the old license is expired. Too bad GOAL didn't think of having a provision for voluntary expiration of LTCs added to the recent law (I doubt any moonbats would have opposed that). This would not get the MIRCS "application in process" in place, but would provide a sound basis for a defense to an expired license without grace period charge.
 
Last edited:
Very true, however, one of the towns in this discussion is Brookline [rolleyes]

Almost irrelevant. I have never heard of possession on an expired license being prosecuted (once defense counsel points out the law to the ADA, and the ADA calls the FRB to confirm - yes, it has happened); the penalty is a civil fine only (reduced by the recent change in law); and there is no jail/prison time possible so it is not a disqualifier.

That's why I stated "IF"! I was born in Brookline >60 years ago and my Father was an Aux. PO there . . . NOTHING has changed in their anti-2A policy since then! My Father resigned since the chief back then refused to arm the Aux POs (who were all WWII Vets) even though they put them in life-threatening situations unarmed (and no portable radios back then)!!

I do know of such a case currently "in process" (charges were made about 1 year ago) and they are going "full boat" to convict this person. I can't say more as I was brought in as a consultant on some aspects of this case.
 
I do know of such a case currently "in process" (charges were made about 1 year ago) and they are going "full boat" to convict this person. I can't say more as I was brought in as a consultant on some aspects of this case.

The charge I was referring to was possession (actually possession or carry) on an expired license.

H4376 reduced the penalty from $500 to $100 for this offense, and it is not a disqualifier as it is not felony. misdafelony, crime of violence, domestic violence/RO crime, drug crime, failure to report a hotel fire, receipt for deposit by insolvent banking institution, or gun/ammo crime involving possible jail/prison time.

So how exactly is it that a case for a charge with a maximum $100 fine involves a full boat prosecution lasting over a year?
 
Last edited:
Rob,

Although technically you are correct, when Jason Guida was Director of FRB he assured me that the grace period would apply in a case like this.

I wouldn't bet on it, but I throw it out there for whatever it is worth.

Off the top of my head thought below!

- If both towns agree to do as requested, perhaps handing in the written app prior to old town actually expiring the current LTC would give legal coverage . . . even though the new town can not process it until after expiration of the current LTC??

What would prevent the new town from processing the application before the current LTC was expired? Towns process apps all the time before a 'current license expires.'
 
What would prevent the new town from processing the application before the current LTC was expired? Towns process apps all the time before a 'current license expires.'

There are two parts of "processing" -

1. Local approvals, record checks, etc.

2. MIRCS entry

#2 could be blocked by an existing LTC in another town.
 
The charge I was referring to was possession (actually possession or carry) on an expired license.

H4376 reduced the penalty from $500 to $100 for this offense, and it is not a disqualifier as it is not felony. misdafelony, crime of violence, domestic violence/RO crime, drug crime, failure to report a hotel fire, receipt for deposit by insolvent banking institution, or gun/ammo crime involving possible jail/prison time.

So how exactly is it that a case for a charge with a maximum $100 fine involves a full boat prosecution lasting over a year?

Rob, they charged the person with illegal possession without a license (Felony)! Gun was found in the home, no carrying involved. There's more too, but that is all that is pertinent to this discussion.
 
Rob, they charged the person with illegal possession without a license (Felony)! Gun was found in the home, no carrying involved. There's more too, but that is all that is pertinent to this discussion.

Did the person have an expired LTC, and not have a denial of an application for renewal since the expiration? If so, the expired license statute would appear to provide a full defense. If someone with an expired LTC, who has not become statutorily ineligible or turned down for a renewal (two factors that can negate the protection provided by an expired LTC) is being prosecuted for a felony, Comm2A would be very interested in learning more about the case and possibly getting involved.

Interestingly, this is why police departments have been advised to keep a record of all LTC denials. If a former LTC holder is arrested for "unlicensed possession or carry", a scavenger hunt for a denial that will negate the expired license protection ensues.
 
No denials. No LTC, it was the old horseblanket FID that the person never renewed . . . probably thought "lifetime" meant lifetime. And it was a low-cap rifle in the house.
 
No denials. No LTC, it was the old horseblanket FID that the person never renewed . . . probably thought "lifetime" meant lifetime. And it was a low-cap rifle in the house.

This is a completely different beast from what I was talking about, because the old FIDs were invalidated.

I would consider using the entrapment by estopel defense. When the individual obtained his horseblanket, he was told that it was valid for life unless revoked. The state never notified him of revocation, and he relied on the communication from a LE official at the state level(*) that he would be legal as long as he had the FID.

* - Note that this defense does not cross state/federal lines. A statie telling you something is legal under federal law, or a fed telling you something is legal under state law, does not enable one to use this defense.
 
Thanks for the info Rob, I knew most of it, but it's always good to check with this stuff. In MA it seems really easy to become a PP or felon on a technicality. Of the cities I listed, which is most pro-2a? I looked and all of them should issue ALP based on the "guide to gun rights in your town" thread, except Newton seems iffy.

As soon as I move and get all of that settled - months from now, seeing as we haven't even listed our current place yet, I'll probably contact Comm2a for ideas about dealing with Brookline. I would love O'Leary to have to argue in court that I should be forced to keep a firearms license I don't want. Except I don't have the time and after I buy another house - won't have the money, to fight him...

These numbers should at least give you a rough idea on which communities are more likely to issue an unrestricted LTC A

Licensing Town-by-Town

.....................Unrestricted.....Restricted

ARLINGTON........501...............13

DEDHAM............467...............72

NATICK..............695...............1

NEEDHAM...........442...............3

NEWTON............419...............287

http://www.comm2a.org/index.php/8-home/197-licensing

Another thing to consider is what (if any), additional requirements those communities impose upon applicants.
 
Okay, so Newton is the most red of the cities I'm looking at. I've seen those numbers before, but those are from 2012-2013, any recent changes wouldn't be reflected.

Any recent info on Newton or Westwood?

Assuming Brookline will early expire my LTC, should I just have a friend with a valid LTC hold onto my guns while I'm waiting for the new one?

Thanks!
 
Okay, so Newton is the most red of the cities I'm looking at. I've seen those numbers before, but those are from 2012-2013, any recent changes wouldn't be reflected.

Any recent info on Newton or Westwood?

Assuming Brookline will early expire my LTC, should I just have a friend with a valid LTC hold onto my guns while I'm waiting for the new one?

Thanks!

1. It may be productive to stop by the station, make an appointment with the licensing officer, and ask if you will be able to obtain an unrestricted LTC. I know of one case where an individual got a machine gun license because he did this. When he applied, and the chief was reluctant to approve, the licensing officer told the chief of the conversation, and that he had told the applicant it would be no problem. The chief understood the concept of honoring the department's word and the MG license was issued.

2. You could have the friend hold the guns, but if you fail to do so, you are risking a $100 fine (assuming you do not receive a denial on your renewal)
 
1. It may be productive to stop by the station, make an appointment with the licensing officer, and ask if you will be able to obtain an unrestricted LTC. I know of one case where an individual got a machine gun license because he did this. When he applied, and the chief was reluctant to approve, the licensing officer told the chief of the conversation, and that he had told the applicant it would be no problem. The chief understood the concept of honoring the department's word and the MG license was issued.

2. You could have the friend hold the guns, but if you fail to do so, you are risking a $100 fine (assuming you do not receive a denial on your renewal)


Thanks again for the info Rob!
 
Sorry for bringing an old thread back to life, but I'm wondering if you ever got your restrictions removed?

Don't feel bad about bumping this... this thread was at least started this year. We have some guys around here who still necropost on threads that were last bumped in like 2008. [rofl]

-Mike
 
Sorry for bringing an old thread back to life, but I'm wondering if you ever got your restrictions removed?

I'm moving from Marlborough with restrictions to Lancaster (100% unrestricted licenses in 2014) hoping to do the same as you.

Did you have any problems or have any tips to share?

Thanks!

Hi Frank - I honestly haven't gotten around to it yet. I've been so busy with the house and the move. I'm going to talk to my new town's LO this week hopefully.
 
Emailed back and forth with the LO in new town, got a less favorable answer than I was hoping for. He said that because he won't guarantee I won't get restrictions on the new license (or even get a license at all) he recommends I let my existing one expire (in Oct 2018) and then ask him for unrestricted then. So, I emailed the LO at old red town, and asked him to remove my restrictions, given that I don't live in, commute to, or have anything to do with the his town any more. Haven't heard back from him and that was 10 days ago.

Not really sure what to do now. New town's LO doesn't know who I am/what's on my record so he may just be being conservative and doesn't want to promise anything over email. I don't know.
 
If Brookline goes full douche you might have to get a lawyer involved to get them to let go. The odds of this are pretty high, given their reputation.

The reason the new town might be getting cold feet about it is its possible the new chief (or his LO) doesn't want to get embroiled into a dick measuring contest with Brookline over trying to get them to expire your old license. That end of it shouldn't be a big deal, though.

-Mike
 
If Brookline goes full douche you might have to get a lawyer involved to get them to let go. The odds of this are pretty high, given their reputation.

The reason the new town might be getting cold feet about it is its possible the new chief (or his LO) doesn't want to get embroiled into a dick measuring contest with Brookline over trying to get them to expire your old license. That end of it shouldn't be a big deal, though.

-Mike
Brookline actually offered to early expire and just asked me what date I was going to the new PD to apply for renewal. I didn't even have to ask, I just asked them to remove my restrictions and they offered it as an alternative.
 
Brookline actually offered to early expire and just asked me what date I was going to the new PD to apply for renewal. I didn't even have to ask, I just asked them to remove my restrictions and they offered it as an alternative.

That takes the hard part of the battle out of the equation then.... my advice would be to talk face to face with the LO or chief in the new town instead of being "the guy on the email".

-Mike
 
Back
Top Bottom