Navy Seal killed in Ukraine…

Think back to the first Gulf War. Iraq had a formidable air defense network but a not very credible Air Force. The US still spent around two months to achieve air dominance, and we had hundreds of fighters including stealth fighters which hit radar installations.

Russia has a more dominant air defense network than Iraq, with better missile systems. Russia has hundreds of high quality fighters.

Could the U.S. gain pair dominance against Russia? Yes, I think so. But Ukraine with 50 old MiG 29s with semi-active radar guided missiles? No, they’ve got no chance.
You are correct but that was 30 yrs ago, I assume Russia hasn't deployed their AA Batteries because they are vulnerable to HIMARS. attacks.
Only time will tell but it's all up to Putin and the Euroweenies. We know Putin's strategy is to outlast Western Aid, so we'll see who blinks first.
 
You are correct but that was 30 yrs ago, I assume Russia hasn't deployed their AA Batteries because they are vulnerable to HIMARS. attacks.
Only time will tell but it's all up to Putin and the Euroweenies. We know Putin's strategy is to outlast Western Aid, so we'll see who blinks first.
That's not correct. They have deployed their SAM batteries. Their SAM coverage extends to the line of battle at medium and high altitudes. Their Su-27/30/35s are currently staying behind the line of battle, but their radar-guided missiles greatly outrange Ukraine's MIGs. In addition, Russia's radar-guided air-to-air missiles are modern, long-range, fire-and-forget missiles. Their missiles actually outrange our AIM-120. In contrast, Ukraine's radar-guided air-to-air missiles are not fire-and-forget. That is, Ukraine's missiles require Ukraine's Mig-29 to keep illuminating the target in order for their missile to track. If the Mig-29 turns away, the missile goes stupid.

This is a long read, but was written by experts who have been to Ukraine and interviewed Ukrainian pilots and SAM operators: The Russian Air War and Ukrainian Requirements for Air Defence
 
Hmm, I'm not so sure, the Russians haven't gained air superiority over the Ukraine which has stunned Western Military officials so I think the West overestimated their abilities. If we gave the Ukrainians, the ability to track and destroy the S-300/400's and other wheeled AA batteries it might allow the A-10's to accomplish their missions. Remember the BUK missile system that took down the airliner in 2014, that would be a target of opportunity and easily destroyed I believe. Remember the A-10 was designed to defeat Soviet Armor if the balloon went up in Europe back in the day. If they flew nap of the earth to and from the objective, they might be effective. Since I'm not an expert and don't have the clearance anymore to get the facts I'm just speculating but it would be a good threat to use against Putin.

Nobody denies that the US would gain near-total air dominance over the Ukrainian battlespace.

I think your mistake is in assuming that means it'd be easy for us to pass that ability to the Ukes. You're talking about a total revamp of the MTOE, type of equipment, and training of their entire air force, while a war is ongoing.

Or? You're talking about the US going in there and doing it ourselves, on their behalf. And I hope you're not...
 
Nobody denies that the US would gain near-total air dominance over the Ukrainian battlespace.

I think your mistake is in assuming that means it'd be easy for us to pass that ability to the Ukes. You're talking about a total revamp of the MTOE, type of equipment, and training of their entire air force, while a war is ongoing.

Or? You're talking about the US going in there and doing it ourselves, on their behalf. And I hope you're not...
Exactly. What we have is established over long periods of conflicts, learn how and how to execute.

What we have is no easy feat, trillions dollars later and we still f*** up.
 
Nobody denies that the US would gain near-total air dominance over the Ukrainian battlespace.

I think your mistake is in assuming that means it'd be easy for us to pass that ability to the Ukes. You're talking about a total revamp of the MTOE, type of equipment, and training of their entire air force, while a war is ongoing.

Or? You're talking about the US going in there and doing it ourselves, on their behalf. And I hope you're not...
Indeed.

While the US could certainly achieve air dominance, it wouldn't be an easy thing. It would entail moving multiple air wings to eastern Europe and moving enough munitions, parts, maintainers, fuel, etc. Then it would entail a major campaign to destroy their air defense system and destroy their fighter aircraft.
 
Indeed.

While the US could certainly achieve air dominance, it wouldn't be an easy thing. It would entail moving multiple air wings to eastern Europe and moving enough munitions, parts, maintainers, fuel, etc. Then it would entail a major campaign to destroy their air defense system and destroy their fighter aircraft.

This is my point.

Turning the Ukrainian air force into an organization that can do all that efficiently, and have the birds to spare, and pilots trained to use them well enough? That's a TAAAALLLLLLLL order.
 
This is my point.

Turning the Ukrainian air force into an organization that can do all that efficiently, and have the birds to spare, and pilots trained to use them well enough? That's a TAAAALLLLLLLL order.
And doing that all within range of Russia's surface-to-surface missiles (cruise and ballistic).
 
This is my point.

Turning the Ukrainian air force into an organization that can do all that efficiently, and have the birds to spare, and pilots trained to use them well enough? That's a TAAAALLLLLLLL order.
You are correct but if the West doesn't demonstrate they're willing to match Putin's escalations the Ukrainians are doomed.
Seems the Germans are too cowardly to understand their fate depends on demonstrating to Putin we will fight fire with fire, and they depend on us for their protection.
Trump read them the riot act but Biden, Austin and Milley are letting them off the hook.
 
the Ukrainians are doomed.
they are doomed no matter what, the question now is to what degree poland and lithuania are doomed next or not.
looking at germany`s reaction so far, it seems that an millennia old european pecking order if coming back now, when it starts getting hot.
 
they are doomed no matter what, the question now is to what degree poland and lithuania are doomed next or not.
looking at germany`s reaction so far, it seems that an millennia old european pecking order if coming back now, when it starts getting hot.
I don't believe they are doomed because the Russian Army is a joke with poorly trained and equipped Soldiers with little will to fight.
The Ukrainians are fighting for their country and lives so they are highly motivated.
 
This is my point.

Turning the Ukrainian air force into an organization that can do all that efficiently, and have the birds to spare, and pilots trained to use them well enough? That's a TAAAALLLLLLLL order.
Hmm, I don't know Picton.
They are fighting for their lives and are highly motivated. They have matched the Russian Army blow for blow and have much more at stake.
If the only threat Putin has is his nukes he's done. Even if he wanted to launch a tactical nuke I'm pretty sure he would be "persuaded" not to.
Russian Generals and Oligarchs have kids also and want them to live and have access to the West.
Putin has already shown he is out of touch and his "advisors" sold him a bad bill of goods.
Remember, he believed the Army would roll into Kiev in 3-4 days.
OOPS!
 
Hmm, I don't know Picton.
They are fighting for their lives...

Yes.

They're a little busy.

They'd need a brand-new Air Force. You don't just snap your fingers and make that happen, not just for the sake of creating a new market for A10s.
 
I don't believe they are doomed because the Russian Army is a joke with poorly trained and equipped Soldiers with little will to fight.
The Ukrainians are fighting for their country and lives so they are highly motivated.
WW2 answers on how both issues were dealt with - 20mln men lost on fronts, with kgb staffed machine gun squads behind your own troops for motivation.
 
From what I've seen, the war in Ukraine is already becoming the Western Front in WW1. There are guys in trenches, observation aircraft, massive artillery bombardments, and spies while generals and politicians sit well beyond the fighting zone (except for a few long range attacks - like the Gotha bombers and Zeppliins in WW1)
 
Hmm, I don't know Picton.
They are fighting for their lives and are highly motivated. They have matched the Russian Army blow for blow and have much more at stake.
If the only threat Putin has is his nukes he's done. Even if he wanted to launch a tactical nuke I'm pretty sure he would be "persuaded" not to.
Russian Generals and Oligarchs have kids also and want them to live and have access to the West.
Putin has already shown he is out of touch and his "advisors" sold him a bad bill of goods.
Remember, he believed the Army would roll into Kiev in 3-4 days.
OOPS!
There is a bit of a learning curve with flying basic airplanes. Combat aircraft much more so. This isn't even close to a comparison to what it takes to train infantry.
 
There is a bit of a learning curve with flying basic airplanes. Combat aircraft much more so. This isn't even close to a comparison to what it takes to train infantry.
I learned to fly when I was 17. It took longer to study aeronautic science (practical aerodynamics, applied meteorology, mechanical and electrical systems of the aircraft) and pass requisite exams on theory than to learn how to actually fly. If you skip most of theory, it shouldn't take an average guy more than two weeks to learn how to land a single engine a/c with stall speed below 65 knots. If you can land well, the rest is relatively easy. I got a trainee ride in an L-29 "Delfin" once, and it didn't strike me as a particularly difficult aircraft to fly, compared to a yak-52 that I was used to. I have never flown an actual military aircraft. A jet trainer is as close as I ever got to it.
 
I learned to fly when I was 17. It took longer to study aeronautic science (practical aerodynamics, applied meteorology, mechanical and electrical systems of the aircraft) and pass requisite exams on theory than to learn how to actually fly. If you skip most of theory, it shouldn't take an average guy more than two weeks to learn how to land a single engine a/c with stall speed below 65 knots. If you can land well, the rest is relatively easy. I got a trainee ride in an L-29 "Delfin" once, and it didn't strike me as a particularly difficult aircraft to fly, compared to a yak-52 that I was used to. I have never flown an actual military aircraft. A jet trainer is as close as I ever got to it.
Solo in two weeks in a C172 is very doable. That is a far cry from private pilot/instrument in that same C172. Jets are a whole lot more difficult, and combat a whole other level beyond that. And all of that is way short of effective command and control, combat airspace management, etc, etc.
 
Solo in two weeks in a C172 is very doable. That is a far cry from private pilot/instrument in that same C172. Jets are a whole lot more difficult, and combat a whole other level beyond that. And all of that is way short of effective command and control, combat airspace management, etc, etc.
Back where I am from, if you can't fly instruments you are not considered a pilot, but a trainee. That's one of the reasons why I don't consider myself a pilot, in addition to not having flown for 30 years.
 
Jets are a whole lot more difficult
Nope. bizjets are fairly easy to fly if you know how to fly modern prop plane like a SR22 or TTX, I've flown Eclipses, two different types of Citations's, and a little be time in HondaJet and CirrusJets: all fly pretty much the same.

Flying is easy, taking off and landing is also fairly easy. what takes time is learning how to fight. If Ukraine sends their experienced combat pilots, they'll be able to transition fairly quickly. Not 2 weeks but 2 months is very doable. It will take longer to train support personel.

P.S. Also, anyone who thinks C172 is a modern airplane is misguided. This is a piece of junk from 1950's. In three years, it will be "celebrating" 70 years since its introduction. How many of you would love to drive a 1956 Hudson Hornet with its terrible looks, terrible ride, and weakling of an engine. Same applies to C172.
 
Nope. bizjets are fairly easy to fly if you know how to fly modern prop plane like a SR22 or TTX, I've flown Eclipses, two different types of Citations's, and a little be time in HondaJet and CirrusJets: all fly pretty much the same.

Flying is easy, taking off and landing is also fairly easy. what takes time is learning how to fight. If Ukraine sends their experienced combat pilots, they'll be able to transition fairly quickly. Not 2 weeks but 2 months is very doable. It will take longer to train support personel.

P.S. Also, anyone who thinks C172 is a modern airplane is misguided. This is a piece of junk from 1950's. In three years, it will be "celebrating" 70 years since its introduction. How many of you would love to drive a 1956 Hudson Hornet with its terrible looks, terrible ride, and weakling of an engine. Same applies to C172.
Wrong.
And I have flown everything in your list except for the POS Eclipse.
 
Wrong.
And I have flown everything in your list except for the POS Eclipse.
Yeah. I figured that after C172, normal aircraft seem off to you. 90% of all training in jets is learning of systems and procedures, NOT flying. If you think that's wrong, you must be one of those MS Flight Simulator desk jockey.
 
Yeah. I figured that after C172, normal aircraft seem off to you. 90% of all training in jets is learning of systems and procedures, NOT flying. If you think that's wrong, you must be one of those MS Flight Simulator desk jockey.
Hardly. C172s are very forgiving of mistakes. Jets, not so much. It's pretty easy to stay mentally ahead of a C172. To be mentally ahead of a jet requires thinking about things the right way, being organized, being proficient and knowing your systems.
 
"Absent without Leave" is a term in the UCMJ widely used in the Army for Article 86, and is called "Unauthorized Absence" (shortened to "UA") in the Naval Services.

From my understanding, if a military member is away from their appointed place of duty for longer than thirty days, they enter deserter status.

Desertion has its own punitive section in the UCMJ - Article 85.

§885. Art. 85. Desertion (a) Any member of the armed forces who— (1) without authority goes or remains absent from his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to remain away therefrom permanently; (2) quits his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service; or (3) without being regularly separated from one of the armed forces enlists or accepts an appointment in the same or another one of the armed forces without fully disclosing the fact that he has not been regularly separated, or enters any foreign armed service except when authorized by the United States; is guilty of desertion. (b) Any commissioned officer of the armed forces who, after tender of his resignation and before notice of its acceptance, quits his post or proper duties without leave and with intent to remain away therefrom permanently is guilty of desertion. (c) Any person found guilty of desertion or attempt to desert shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, but if the desertion or attempt to desert occurs at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct. §886.

Art. 86. Absence without leave Any member of the armed forces who, without authority— (1) fails to go to his appointed place of duty at the time prescribed; (2) goes from that place; or (3) absents himself or remains absent from his unit, organization, or place of duty at which he is required to be at the time prescribed; shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

There could probably be a whole thread started about AWOL and deserter stories. 😆
Desertion is leaving a war zone, combat or we were in a declared war.
 
No planes will survive anywhere near the combat zone. Don't believe the news. Russia has full integrated air defense and any planes approaching the combat zone have been shot down. Don't forget all units also have there own AD from pantsir close in AD system.
 
Correct, we would dominate the sky's first and then use the A-10's as flying tanks to destroy Russian armor and infantry. Russia doe does not have air superiority in the Ukraine as evidenced by their reluctance to fly their jets on combat missions. We bait the Russians into firing their S-300's and 400's and then we take them out with long range HIMARS rockets and artillery. Seems like the Ukrainians have mastered the art of using drone's for recon and offensive ops so they would be a factor in identifying the missile batteries. If we took out a few Russian S-300/400 batteries Putin would withdraw them in a heartbeat so he could save what is left of his AA batteries.
Have some more cool aid.
 
Desertion is leaving a war zone, combat or we were in a declared war.
You should read the elements of Article 85 again.

A service member can be charged with desertion without being war zone, combat, or in a declared war.

The only additional provision for desertion in a war zone, combat, or in a declared war is that the death penalty can be imposed as a punishment.
 
Have some more cool aid.
as whole world was witness - any possible advantage russia could have on the battlefield was fully compensated by an absolute factual gross incompetence of the implementors.
it seems to be the rule of thumb so far.

and it also correct for ukrainians who say that for 2 ukrainian soldiers they have n average of 3 bachelor degrees, while russia deploys neanderthal convicts.
only question that remains is - will smarter and more efficient ukrainians end up first, or the supply of russian side neanderthals.
 
Back
Top Bottom