New 1911! Question about function: UPDATE

[O/U]

Hi folks,

In conjunction with the Heller decision, I've purchased my very first 1911: a S&W Gunsite. I field stripped it last night and got it all ready for the range. I do have a question about function:

When the hammer is uncocked and I rack the slide, when the slide finishes slamming forward the hammer is left fully cocked. This is exactly what I would expect.

When I rack the slide with the hammer fully cocked, the slide travels forward and the hammer remains fully cocked.

When fully cocked with the slide stop engaged and manually racked without a mag, the hammer falls to half-cocked.

As I tested for function as described above, I had no mag in the magwell and the gun was unloaded.

Is this by design? If so, what is the purpose?

I'm also noticing that compared to my Glock 21, the slide is REALLY stiff. The Glock slide comes back real easy while it takes some English to pull the slide back on the 1911. Is this a question of breaking in the recoil spring, or are 1911's just stiffer by design?

 

[jar]

When I rack the slide with the hammer fully cocked, the slide travels forward and the hammer follows it to a half-cocked position.

That's definitely not right.

ETA: http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-244602.html

 

[O/U]

Ahh, I just investigated further.

When racked and fully cocked, the hammer remains fully cocked. When fully cocked with the slide stop engaged and manually racked without a mag, the hammer falls to half-cocked.

Sorry about the confusion. I'm going to edit my initial post.

 

[jar]

Still, that's not correct functioning. Did you buy the gun used? Based on the high road thread I linked, sounds like an overzealous trigger job.

 

[Supermoto]

You are getting sear/hammer bounce, first if the gun is new, take it back or have it fixed. More than likely the angle on the sear or hammer are not correct. Second, stop letting the slide slam shut, it ruins trigger jobs

 

[vellnueve]

You are getting sear/hammer bounce, first if the gun is new, take it back or have it fixed. More than likely the angle on the sear or hammer are not correct. Second, stop letting the slide slam shut, it ruins trigger jobs

So... shooting the gun will ruin the trigger job?

 

[Supermoto]

So... shooting the gun will ruin the trigger job?

See you think you know about guns, I read your posts, you don't, so stop trying to be a wise ass


Is he shooting the gun...No

He is getting hammer follow when slamming the slide home on an empty chamber. This is hard on a lot of parts for the 1911 since its controlled feed.

 

[O/U]

See you think you know about guns, I read your posts, you don't, so stop trying to be a wise ass


Is he shooting the gun...No

He is getting hammer follow when slamming the slide home on an empty chamber. This is hard on a lot of parts for the 1911 since its controlled feed.

Hi Supermoto,

Thanks for the response. I had no idea that letting a slide fall on an empty chamber was bad for the gun. I called S&W and they confirmed this: dropping the slide on an empty chamber is like "using your bumpers to stop your car." Yikes!

I dropped the slide several times with this 1911. I'm wondering now if that is the reason the hammer is dropping to half-cocked when released from the slide stop (I only noticed this after the slide had been dropped several times. I'm guessing I've dropped it between 10 and 20 times while dry firing.). When I walk the slide down from this condition, the hammer does not follow.

I did ask S&W about the hammer following the slide. The technician thought that the hammer would remain fully cocked when using ammunition and that he thought I should be ok. Still, I'm pretty upset that I might have caused this on an expensive firearm. I'm also noticing a dent and ridge on the breech face. It is very very fine. It almost looks like a hairline crack, but I'm pretty sure it's a fine ridge of metal.

I bought the gun "used but unfired" from a dealer. I'm pretty upset and discouraged by this. I read the manual before performing any operations with the gun, but either missed the part about not letting the slide fall on an empty chamber or it wasn't in the manual.

So, am I stuck with a thousand dollar paperweight? I know the S&W customer service is supposed to be excellent, but if letting that slide fall is a no-no are they going to bother with me?

 

[Supermoto]

Hi Supermoto,

Thanks for the response. I had no idea that letting a slide fall on an empty chamber was bad for the gun. I called S&W and they confirmed this: dropping the slide on an empty chamber is like "using your bumpers to stop your car." Yikes!

I dropped the slide several times with this 1911. I'm wondering now if that is the reason the hammer is dropping to half-cocked when released from the slide stop (I only noticed this after the slide had been dropped several times. I'm guessing I've dropped it between 10 and 20 times while dry firing.). When I walk the slide down from this condition, the hammer does not follow.

I did ask S&W about the hammer following the slide. The technician thought that the hammer would remain fully cocked when using ammunition and that he thought I should be ok. Still, I'm pretty upset that I might have caused this on an expensive firearm. I'm also noticing a dent and ridge on the breech face. It is very very fine. It almost looks like a hairline crack, but I'm pretty sure it's a fine ridge of metal.

I bought the gun "used but unfired" from a dealer. I'm pretty upset and discouraged by this. I read the manual before performing any operations with the gun, but either missed the part about not letting the slide fall on an empty chamber or it wasn't in the manual.

So, am I stuck with a thousand dollar paperweight? I know the S&W customer service is supposed to be excellent, but if letting that slide fall is a no-no are they going to bother with me?

Its not going to do damage with that little amount, you already had the issue and didn't cause it. but it is not a good habit. some say they have done it to their 1911 1000's of times with no ill effect, they probably don't have a light trigger job and won't notice the difference. It also but undue wear on the lower lugs and slide stop pin.

Also cocking the hammer while the trigger is not pressed will also wear a trigger and sear. SO when dry firing, I hold the trigger back while I rack the slide or thumb the hammer, Becareful as this can lead to bad safety habits on the range if you're not paying attention

Dropping the slide on an empty chamber is a safety check I do anytime I get a new gun or total strip on down, if it doesn't pass, then the gun doesn't get shot. I am surprised S&W told you that its OK, if the problem gets worse ( and it won't get better) then you will run into doubling issues while shooting.

I would recommend sending your gun back or if you don't want to wait, find a good gunsmith. Greg Derr or Dave Santurri will fix the problem and do a proper trigger job

 

[O/U]

Its not going to do damage with that little amount, you already had the issue and didn't cause it. but it is not a good habit. some say they have done it to their 1911 1000's of times with no ill effect, they probably don't have a light trigger job and won't notice the difference. It also but undue wear on the lower lugs and slide stop pin.

Also cocking the hammer while the trigger is not pressed will also wear a trigger and sear. SO when dry firing, I hold the trigger back while I rack the slide or thumb the hammer, Becareful as this can lead to bad safety habits on the range if you're not paying attention

Dropping the slide on an empty chamber is a safety check I do anytime I get a new gun or total strip on down, if it doesn't pass, then the gun doesn't get shot. I am surprised S&W told you that its OK, if the problem gets worse ( and it won't get better) then you will run into doubling issues while shooting.

I would recommend sending your gun back or if you don't want to wait, find a good gunsmith. Greg Derr or Dave Santurri will fix the problem and do a proper trigger job

Supermoto,

Thanks for the advice. A hammer following the slide makes me very nervous. I'm going to call one of those gunsmiths tomorrow. I'm concerned that if I send it to Smith, it will return fixed but with a heavier trigger pull.

 

[Lugnut]

I've been learning as well. I've recently been made aware of easing the slide forward in a 1911 (only when not loading ammo of course). I honestly don't give much thought doing this to my Glock, M&P and Sigs. The director of training at Sig laughed when someone asked if it was bad to do.... he said it wouldn't be a problem.

I didn't know about pulling the trigger while cocking the hammer... that's interesting.

Back to your issue. I would insist on sending it back. I had my 1911 double twice... it sucked. I was freaked out that I f'cked up somehow but couldn't understand how I could have done it. Sent it to S&W and it hasn't occured again after many thousand rounds.

 

[Lugnut]

Supermoto,

Thanks for the advice. A hammer following the slide makes me very nervous. I'm going to call one of those gunsmiths tomorrow. I'm concerned that if I send it to Smith, it will return fixed but with a heavier trigger pull.

Why send to to someone else??? S&W will fix it. Is this a new gun??

 

[Supermoto]

Why send to to someone else??? S&W will fix it. Is this a new gun??

The reason I suggest going to a gunsmith is that most people want a trigger job on their 1911 anyways, might as well get it done now. Also I don't like being with out my gun and I want to know who is working on them. So I would go with local guys I trust or in the case of the race guns, back to the builder

 

[Lugnut]

The reason I suggest going to a gunsmith is that most people want a trigger job on their 1911 anyways, might as well get it done now. Also I don't like being with out my gun and I want to know who is working on them. So I would go with local guys I trust or in the case of the race guns, back to the builder

You aren't the only one that doesn't like parting with your gun! It took me some thought to send my 1911 slide out to get a new FO front sight! Oh well I'm weird like that.

On OP's gun- if it's new and it came that way- I'd have S&W fix it. At the least they will replace the defective parts (sear/hammer, etc) with new ones.

On the trigger job- you guys are soooo spoiled with your 2lb triggers! I'd say unless you are climbing the ranks and have serious time into shooting- stick with the stock 4.5lb trigger for the time being- it's not that bad. Build fundamentals before you mess with the trigger. be agrees with me.

 

[O/U]

Why send to to someone else??? S&W will fix it. Is this a new gun??

This is a used but unfired gun I got from a dealer. It is otherwise in pristine condition.

Looks like both Derr and Santurri are quite a drive from me. I might be sending it to Smith afterall.

Wow. I haven't even shot it. I'm bummed! [sad2]

 

[Lugnut]

This is a used but unfired gun I got from a dealer. It is otherwise in pristine condition.

Looks like both Derr and Santurri are quite a drive from me. I might be sending it to Smith afterall.

Wow. I haven't even shot it. I'm bummed! [sad2]

I'm not doubting that Derr or Santurri can take care of this... but usually S&W is pretty good about fixing these things at no charge. Once you decide it you want trigger work or better sights... sending it someone like Greg is the wise thing to do.

Good luck.

 

[O/U]

Hi folks,

I just wanted to update people on the issue with my new 1911PD. I called Derr who was really great over the phone. He took his time with me and really explained how things work. Kudos to him!

He wasn't surprised that the hammer followed the slide when released from the stop without a mag in it. He agreed with Smith that this would not happen when a charged mag slowed the slide down. Derr suggested I take it to the range and try it, which also confirmed what the tech at Smith advised.

I took it to the range twice and I've now dumped a total of 500 rounds into the pistol. It has gone bang every time, fed beautifully, has been extremely accurate and fun to shoot. If I do my part, the pistol is absolutely precise to point of aim. I have not had problems with the hammer following the slide.

The only issue I've had is hot brass ejecting into my face every couple of dozen rounds. In fact, on one hot range session outside I had removed my hat and a casing lodged between my safety glasses and my temple. This was several days ago, and I still bear a painful .45-shaped burn on the side of my head. From now on the baseball hat stays on, but I'm wondering if this ejection problem is an easy fix. It's really not a huge deal, but compared to my Glock 21 which puts brass in a neat little 4 inch pile behind and to my right the Smith leaves a little to be desired.

That said, I shoot the 1911 much better than I shoot the Glock. The recoil is slightly snappier, but still quite manageable. The single action is a joy to shoot. My wife tried both the 1911 and the G21 and vastly preferred the Glock. It was the first time she's ever shot a .45 and managed to put 6 rounds (everything she had in the mag at the time) into a 3.5 inch group at 20 yards. She did this twice in a row. She's an absolute natural!! Her groups with the Glock are consistently better than mine, though with the 1911 I can almost duplicate her success. She's still better than me, hands down.

I was happy that I managed to take my finger out of the trigger guard and keep the muzzle pointed down range as the shell fried my temple. It took enormous willpower not to drop the pistol and get both hands working on eliminating the pain. I'm thankful for the experience, and have thoroughly learned my lesson: hat on, all the time!

 

[Mike-Mike]

Mine does that too. Try slide forward without pushing in the grip safety. It should function fine. There is a problem that needs to be repaired.

 

[M1911]

In fact, on one hot range session outside I had removed my hat and a casing lodged between my safety glasses and my temple.

Don't do that ! That is why many ranges require that you wear a hat.

This was several days ago, and I still bear a painful .45-shaped burn on the side of my head. From now on the baseball hat stays on, but I'm wondering if this ejection problem is an easy fix.

I believe it can be fixed. I'm not sure whether it requires tuning the extractor or the ejector, but I suspect that someone like Greg Derr could fix it for you at minimal cost.

 

[O/U]

Mine does that too. Try slide forward without pushing in the grip safety. It should function fine. There is a problem that needs to be repaired.

That's interesting. I have definitely been depressing the grip safety during function checks. I'll try it without pushing the grip safety to see what happens.

When you say "There is a problem that needs to be fixed", are you saying this is a known problem with Smith 1911's? Derr seemed to think that if it didn't happen when the slide was stripping a round out of the mag then it was a non-issue. Smith concurred.

About my stupid mistake in taking off my hat: point taken, lesson learned. It still hurts, and really is a large and very visible burn on my temple. In fact, it was such a severe burn that the center of the burn turned white. I really got cooked! Youch!

Quick question: the portion of the barrel visible through the ejection port is getting pretty scratched and burnished. This means that it's rubbing on something in the slide. Is this wear to be expected on a 1911? It doesn't bother me. I'm just wondering if it's normal.

 

[BOBKATT]

Dropping the slide on an empty chamber is a safety check that some people do occasionally to make sure what is hapening to your 1911 doesn't happen to theirs. Because it shouldn't

Dropping the slide on an empty chamber also will not cause the problem that you are having. The problem that you are having sounds like there is too little metal on the hammer hooks that engage the sear at full cock, or maybe too little metal on the sear. Either way its not being engaged properly and to me that sounds like someone try a home style hack up trigger job on it and screwed it all up. Whatever you do, do not load this gun. Send it to S&W or a gunsmith.

Actually, you're probably going to end up paying for the parts if it was the result of a bad trigger job that did this one in. If I were you I would buy the ed brown hardcore hammer and sear and just replace the two.

 

[O/U]

Dropping the slide on an empty chamber is a safety check that some people do occasionally to make sure what is hapening to your 1911 doesn't happen to theirs. Because it shouldn't

Dropping the slide on an empty chamber also will not cause the problem that you are having. The problem that you are having sounds like there is too little metal on the hammer hooks that engage the sear at full cock, or maybe too little metal on the sear. Either way its not being engaged properly and to me that sounds like someone try a home style hack up trigger job on it and screwed it all up. Whatever you do, do not load this gun. Send it to S&W or a gunsmith.

Actually, you're probably going to end up paying for the parts if it was the result of a bad trigger job that did this one in. If I were you I would buy the ed brown hardcore hammer and sear and just replace the two.

Keep in mind that dropping the slide on an empty chamber does not cause the hammer to follow the slide. It only happens in a very specific condition: when the slide is released via the slide stop on an empty chamber without the mag. If I manually rack the slide, or drop it with a mag in the pistol the hammer stays put. I cannot manually shove the cocked hammer off the sear either. I've tried several times.

Both Smith and Derr say the pistol is fine and encouraged me to shoot it. I did so and in 500 rounds had perfect function, occasional ejection issues aside. So who's right? You, or Derr and Smith and Wesson?

 

[BOBKATT]

Keep in mind that dropping the slide on an empty chamber does not cause the hammer to follow the slide. It only happens in a very specific condition: when the slide is released via the slide stop on an empty chamber without the mag. If I manually rack the slide, or drop it with a mag in the pistol the hammer stays put. I cannot manually shove the cocked hammer off the sear either. I've tried several times.

Both Smith and Derr say the pistol is fine and encouraged me to shoot it. I did so and in 500 rounds had perfect function, occasional ejection issues aside. So who's right? You, or Derr and Smith and Wesson?

I don't really know what to tell you other than that is not supposed to happen and something is wrong with your gun. I've owned my share of 1911's, I own a Smith & Wesson 1911. As I and others have mentioned, dropping the slide on an empty chamber is a test to determine the safety of the pistol. If the hammer follows the slide then the sear/hammer engagement is not right and the pistol is not safe. I've dropped the slide from the slidestop on an empty chamber as a test for every 1911 I've ever owned and none of them have ever had a hammer that follows the slide.

It's a matter of physics, when you drop the slide from the slide stop it jars the gun more than when you let it go on your own and that little bit more is enough for the hammer to slip off of the sear. That is why it happens only in that condition. Not unlike the mechanics of an elastic gun making for a more powerful release than if you emulate it with your hands. You can do with it what you like. Is the gun dangerous? No probably not, and especially because it is catching the half cock notch. Is it right? No it's not, someone messed with the internals on that thing and didn't do the job right. I would not feel comfortable with it, you might. If you do, please follow gun safety rule #1 as if your neighbors life depended on it.

P.S. You must have one hell of a trigger in that thing.

 

[Mike-Mike]

That's interesting. I have definitely been depressing the grip safety during function checks. I'll try it without pushing the grip safety to see what happens.

When you say "There is a problem that needs to be fixed", are you saying this is a known problem with Smith 1911's?

No Mine is an old Colt. But the same problem only when the Slide goes forward on an empty chamber and I have the grip safety pushed in really hard.

I am not a gun smith but I think it has something to do with the grip safety going in too far and the inertia of the slide traveling fast. Mine has never done this on a live round. Also, I haven't been really concerned with this due to the fact that I only load this gun at the range and shoot it until empty. I carry other guns.

 

[RKG]

If everyone is entitled to their 2-cents worth, here is mine:

A) Dropping the slide via the recoil spring on an empty chamber is a bad idea, in any auto. You can do it a few times without injury (and it is required for one of the standard post-reassembly safety checks), but as a regular practice, it is a bad idea. It is also unnecessary, since if you're dropping the slide on an empty chamber you're probably putting the pistol away, and there is not reason not to let the slide down gently.

B) Your problem is hammer follow. There can be a number of causes, but as you've described things, it is most likely caused by sear bounce, which is most likely the result of someone altering the factory trigger, sear and/or hammer. It is not acceptable in this condition and should be returned to S&W.

You (and others) suggest that you won't experience hammer follow whenever the pistol is chambering a round stripped from an inserted magazine. That may be true today, but your description of the problem leads me to predict that one of these days you'll experence hammer follow even then. Hammer follow can lead to doubling (though it usually doesn't), but it always renders the pistol not ready for service after firing the first round.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

So... shooting the gun will ruin the trigger job?

When the slide slams forward in firing the hammer is disengaged from the sear, so there is no bouncing of the hammer and sear engagement surfaces, so you do not have the problem of which Supermoto speaks.

You are probably right about getting a heavier trigger pull. If you want a premium trigger job, I suggest you get a hammer/sear set made out of machined or EDM wire cut tool steel - EGW, Cylinder & Slide, Wilson Combat, Caspian and SVI/Infinity are some names that come to mind.

 

[O/U]

Thanks for the input everyone. All the advice seems to be saying relatively the same thing: the pistol is probably fine from a safety perspective, but "probably" and "safe" are usually not two words you want going together when it comes to a firearm.

Since I'm planning on carrying this gun it needs to function perfectly. I think the consensus is that it doesn't, but that the fix isn't a huge deal.

I seriously doubt anyone mucked with the trigger though. The trigger is exactly the same as two other 1911PD's I've dry fired. I also trust the dealer from whom I purchased the gun, and he personally knows the guy who traded it in. Apparently, this fellow is a routine customer who buys a firearm, puts it in his safe and trades it in weeks later in an unfired condition. I guess he's been doing it for years at this particular shop. There is a chance that he opened up the gun of course, and I'll probably know for sure if this happened after a gunsmith takes a look.

I'm going to send it to Smith and see what they can do. I'm also going to have them take a look at the ejector to see if they can tune it to throw brass a little further from my face. I am concerned that a fix will result in a heavier trigger. It's not light by any stretch right now. I'm guessing it's 5 to 5.5 lbs.

I'll keep you posted. I'll call Smith again later today.

 

[Supermoto]

Trigger weight has very little to do with hammer follow, It is more to do with the cut angles of the hammer hooks and sear. I have a 1911 with a 4lbs trigger that started to follow during the safety check, I didn't fix the issue and it will now fall to half cock while firing. Hammer follow doesn't go away, it will always get worse, this is the safety issue. My 2lbs triggers do not follow, one gun has 25K rounds through it and the trigger is still safe.

The PD are known to eject straight back. Some of the reason is the ejector, some is the way the gun recoils. A proper grip will help prevent it from happening. Using an over sized ejector tuned to eject the brass lower will also help

 

[BOBKATT]

Thanks for the input everyone. All the advice seems to be saying relatively the same thing: the pistol is probably fine from a safety perspective, but "probably" and "safe" are usually not two words you want going together when it comes to a firearm.

Since I'm planning on carrying this gun it needs to function perfectly. I think the consensus is that it doesn't, but that the fix isn't a huge deal.

I seriously doubt anyone mucked with the trigger though. The trigger is exactly the same as two other 1911PD's I've dry fired. I also trust the dealer from whom I purchased the gun, and he personally knows the guy who traded it in. Apparently, this fellow is a routine customer who buys a firearm, puts it in his safe and trades it in weeks later in an unfired condition. I guess he's been doing it for years at this particular shop. There is a chance that he opened up the gun of course, and I'll probably know for sure if this happened after a gunsmith takes a look.

I'm going to send it to Smith and see what they can do. I'm also going to have them take a look at the ejector to see if they can tune it to throw brass a little further from my face. I am concerned that a fix will result in a heavier trigger. It's not light by any stretch right now. I'm guessing it's 5 to 5.5 lbs.

I'll keep you posted. I'll call Smith again later today.

The distance that the brass is being thrown has to do with the stength of the recoil spring. The angle is a different story. If S&W is going to fix it under warranty I'm guessing that the gun will have to have been unaltered as far as a trigger job is concerned.