New ATF ruling regarding 80% receivers

[LoginName]

It appears like they're targeting the type of activity where a "business" that sells unfinished lowers can no longer
offer services that allows the buyer to complete the work on their machinery/equipment, on their premises.

ie... no more they set it up, and you push the start button.


http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/fi...ling-2015-1-manufacturing-and-gunsmithing.pdf

 

[Archilochus]

And next it will be no using tools belonging to someone else ("business" or not)

 

[The5thDentist]

WTF? Someone at the ATF actually worked yesterday?

 

[throttle-junkie]

Well they have to do something other than processing form 1's.

 

[JohnZ]

I feel safer they were on the job.

 

[Modulus Arms]

They have had this opinion for a very long time and have been cracking down on it for some time. Basically, the heart of their thinking is if you do not use hands and your brain to finish it doesn't count.

 

[Boris]

 

[inerlogic]

F*** them.

 

[shipwreck]

Wtf. If you make it anywhere yourself, why does it matter?

shipwreck - DTOM

 

[warwickben]

Wtf. If you make it anywhere yourself, why does it matter?

shipwreck - DTOM

If a company is doing a build party that's not a FFl , there operating as a manufacture producing lowers that are not serialized with out a 07.
If the company wants to host a party, they have a 07 and the lowers got serialized. It be a different story . Company's do build classes on 1911 and other fire arms all the time.

People hanging out cause one got a mill / press etc there not gonna be bothered .

 

[xtry51]

This

 

[drgrant]

Old news. This really went out the window way back when they busted KT ordnance. I'd be surprised if anyome is still doing it publicly.

 

[LoginName]

They have had this opinion for a very long time and have been cracking down on it for some time. Basically, the heart of their thinking is if you do not use hands and your brain to finish it doesn't count.

It's the newer, less expensive, easily accessible technology that is ruffling their feathers and they're uncertain how to handle it.

Old news. This really went out the window way back when they busted KT ordnance. I'd be surprised if anyome is still doing it publicly.

That was probably the beginning of it/caught their attention.

At the time, I was this close >.< too going up there for a 1911 build party/BBQ.

Things died down a bit until the whole Ares Arms cluster****, 3D printing, "Ghost Guns", Ghost Gunner CNC machine, etc.
shit hit the fan and the anti's had a brain aneurism.

This ATF ruling amounts to 'look, we know you guys are well within your legal rights, but some of you are pushing the
envelope a bit too far. Consider this a friendly warning'.

 

[Squire]

That meme would be even better if it ended with "; ergo, not even one will I give to thee."

 

[milktree]

That meme would be even better if it ended with "; ergo, not even one will I give to thee."

Wrong typeface, but close enough.

 

[Smokewagon]

That meme would be even better if it ended with "; ergo, not even one will I give to thee."

I was thinking it should end with: "Verily, I have none to give."

 

[Smokewagon]

It's the newer, less expensive, easily accessible technology that is ruffling their feathers and they're uncertain how to handle it.

If they think it is bad now, just wait a few years. 3d printing will only get better and cheaper. Portable and easily programmed CNC will only get cheaper.

At some point the ATF is going to end up trying to play the world's biggest game of whack-a-mole, or finally notice their field of fcuks is barren.

 

[milktree]

I was thinking it should end with: "Verily, I have none to give."

OK, here:

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The equation is simple:

1. The federal govt has WAY more power than any individual

2. The ATF has no sense of humor regarding people who parse the law literally to work around the intent of controlling, monitoring, and restricting the activities of individuals.

3. If a creating interpretation/solution is found, it will only work as long as it is obscure, hardly used, and not widely discussed.

If you doubt the above, just ask the folks who made the Atkins Accelerator, or Bob Stewart of Maadi Griffin fame (infamy?).

A current example from another arena:

A current hot topic in precious marketing is dealers who have a creative interpretation that "you can physically hold the gold in your IRA", using logic like "a safe deposit box is not in your physical possession" or "for a trust so you are not personally holding it". This clearly goes against the intent of the owner not being able to use the asset without it being reported to the feds, and I am confident it's only a matter of time before the IRS whacks down this particular mole. My guess is people who "Self store" precious metals IRAs will be given a limited period of time to find a janitor (er, custodian).

If you disagree with a law, there are two arenas in which to fight: Legislative and the courts. Playing word games with the feds to impart a favorable meaning to the law is not likely to prevail in the long run.

 

[Archilochus]

My guess where it's going is that eventually all new firearms will require a serial # and all of the other paperwork that for now only applies to "manufacturers".

 

[browncoat]

The equation is simple:

Playing word games with the feds to impart a favorable meaning to the law is not likely to prevail in the long run.

Of course it can't prevail, because the Feds are the ones who are playing word games to give themselves power and outlaw things that are perfectly legal by the plain word of the law.

 

[Terminator03]

They have had this opinion for a very long time and have been cracking down on it for some time. Basically, the heart of their thinking is if you do not use hands and your brain to finish it doesn't count.

Very interesting jig design.

 

[Reptile]

If things get real rough I'll do this:

Go to Obama community college for Cnc.

Buy a nice Cnc machine in the $5000 range.

Crank out a lifetime supply of lowers.

 

[Quiet]

If things get real rough I'll do this:

Go to Obama community college for Cnc.

Buy a nice Cnc machine in the $5000 range.

Crank out a lifetime supply of lowers.

What's the rule? You can give them away or sell them as long as you're not in the business of manufacturing them? Or you can't ever give them away? Or you have to serialize them and get an FFL?

I'm very confused by all of that.

 

[Reptile]

What's the rule? You can give them away or sell them as long as you're not in the business of manufacturing them? Or you can't ever give them away? Or you have to serialize them and get an FFL? I'm very confused by all of that.

As far as I know you could never give them away or sell a finished lower.

Now it seems you have to use your own machine.

 

[80% Arms]

My guess where it's going is that eventually all new firearms will require a serial # and all of the other paperwork that for now only applies to "manufacturers".

That is exactly what California tried to do with Senate Bill 808 last year. The bill made it all the way to the governor's desk where it was vetoed last September. The veto surprised many in the left leaning California legislature, but the Governor was spot on in his explanation of the veto. Governor Jerry Brown stated "I appreciate the author's concerns about gun violence, but I can't see how adding a serial number to a homemade gun would significantly advance public safety."

http://gov.ca.gov/docs/SB_808_Veto_Message.pdf

As the leading manufacturer of 80% jigs, we took an active role in fighting SB808 and hope that its defeat sent a message to others that may have been contemplating similar legislation.

 

[Wildweasel]

What's the rule? You can give them away or sell them as long as you're not in the business of manufacturing them? Or you can't ever give them away? Or you have to serialize them and get an FFL?

I'm very confused by all of that.

You can give a gun you made yourself away or sell it. but you cannot have built it with the intent to sell. you are encouraged to mark it if you sell. (but not required to.) think of it this way don't buy 2 80% with the intent of finishing both and selling one. if after some time you decide to sell one as normal selling an trading that is ok.

That said I would not due to Legal liability, As you are the manufacturer.

 

[80% Arms]

What's the rule? You can give them away or sell them as long as you're not in the business of manufacturing them? Or you can't ever give them away? Or you have to serialize them and get an FFL?

I'm very confused by all of that.

To add on to Wildweasel's reply, you need to also check the laws for your state. For example, in California to legally give away or sell a completed 80% lower, you must do the transfer through a FFL. You must also comply with the Federal requirements for identification markings. In all cases you can not build the 80% lower with the intention to sell or give it away.

 

[Quiet]

Thank you both for the info!

 

[Modulus Arms]

Here in MA it is completely legal to purchase and build an 80% Lower. They only thing you need is to have a Class A or Class B LTC. If you are legal to own a rifle you are legal to own a non-serialized rifle that you built yourself.