NEW HAMPSHIRE- Feds Want Browns' Huge Weapons Cache

[Bfatz]

Tax evaders are thieves in my book.

I blame the Turbo-tax software.....oh wait that has already been used.

 

[Gonzo]

I blame the Turbo-tax software.....oh wait that has already been used.

Looking for a cabinet position?

 

[TomH]

Someone has to fund the federal government (and yes, it should be vastly more limited in its scope).

The law is settled that income taxes are legal.

Join Wesley Snipes and the Browns if you think otherwise.

I don't exactly enjoy paying taxes but I don't expect our military men and women to defend our freedoms on their own dime.

Freedom has a cost in blood and sweat, but in dollars too.

I'll pay my share and expect others to do the same.


The arguments that we shouldn't pay because the government isn't pure, others don't pay etc. only serve as a giant cluster f....

The majority of our tax dollars are not going to our defense, but to useless programs, pork, businesses who should fail, studies on prostitution in China (yes, seriously!) etc. You might as well shovel your dollars into a furnace. You need to wake up. If only more would stand up like the Browns.

 

[calsdad]

The majority of our tax dollars are not going to our defense, but to useless programs, pork, businesses who should fail, studies on prostitution in China (yes, seriously!) etc. You might as well shovel your dollars into a furnace. You need to wake up. If only more would stand up like the Browns.

Even the majority of our tax dollars that are going into "defense" are going into stuff that would have left the founding fathers screaming out in outrage. The federal government was never intended to be the conduit thru which all of our wealth is directed and misspent. Those who think that paying taxes is "patriotic" need to have their attitudes adjusted and need to be bitch slapped with some thick books on American history and true intents of the people who fought and died to found this country. By arguing that we all "need to pay taxes" you are essentially pissing on their graves in my opinion.

 

[Titan]

...

The punishment however is so far out of line with the crime that it is hard to tell the story with a straightface.

Basically, this couple decided for whatever reason, not to pay taxes. For this they will both die in prison. Sure. That seems reasonable...

A 'bit' of an exaggeration, no?

They took it a bit further than simply not paying their taxes.

 

[Titan]

The majority of our tax dollars are not going to our defense, but to useless programs, pork, businesses who should fail, studies on prostitution in China (yes, seriously!) etc. You might as well shovel your dollars into a furnace. You need to wake up. If only more would stand up like the Browns.

TomH,

So I assume you don't pay... or is your post just bluster?

I'm not arguing that the goverment is perfect.

I'm not arguing that there's anything wrong with civil disobedience in the form of tax protests.

I AM arguing that we are a nation of laws, and at some poiint in the 'tax protest' process, one either yields to that law, or pays the consequences.

The Browns are in prison as a result of their own actions. They chose to go to prison for a point of principle.

Fine. They have made their bed. Let's just not start whining now, that their punishment is unjust.


I'm as outraged as anyone about the injustice in the system, and the double standard represented by Geithner et al.

They remain gross injustices.

Every one of us can pay their taxes or act like the Browns.

It's an individual decision.


The Browns CHOSE to not pay ANY taxes and fight the issue to the end.
I can only assume they're happy with the result, since they made conscious decisons all along the process.

 

[namedpipes]

A 'bit' of an exaggeration, no?

They took it a bit further than simply not paying their taxes.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3290003&page=1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_and_Elaine_Brown#October_4.2C_2007_arrest:_The_standoff_ends

In short, they refused to pay taxes, were prosecuted and convicted, marshals came to arrest them, they refused, living in a home that (like many NES'rs) was self sufficient and well armed. Friends brought food over a period of time. They were eventually arrested without any violence by officers pretending to be supporters.

Not quite sure what you mean by "They took it a bit further than simply not paying their taxes."

I will allow that some of Ed Brown's stated opinions go just a little bit astray of mainstream but I hardly think (for all intents and purposes) sentencing him to death in prison is equitable.

 

[Titan]

...
In short, they refused to pay taxes, were prosecuted and convicted, marshals came to arrest them, they refused, living in a home that (like many NES'rs) was self sufficient and well armed. Friends brought food over a period of time. They were eventually arrested without any violence by officers pretending to be supporters.

Not quite sure what you mean by "They took it a bit further than simply not paying their taxes."

I will allow that some of Ed Brown's stated opinions go just a little bit astray of mainstream but I hardly think (for all intents and purposes) sentencing him to death in prison is equitable.

Most folks would have come to their senses somewhere before the first 'overdue' notice and being dragged off to prison.

TV is awash in commercials for attorneys who promise they can lower your tax liability to pennies on the dollar.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

TV is awash in commercials for attorneys who promise they can lower your tax liability to pennies on the dollar.

It's called an "offer in compromise" and getting one accepted is very very difficult unless you can convince the feds that there is reasonable doubt as to the tax owed, or your current assets and future income prospects present little chance of full collection.

 

[NHAtHeart]

Most folks would have come to their senses somewhere before the first 'overdue' notice and being dragged off to prison.

TV is awash in commercials for attorneys who promise they can lower your tax liability to pennies on the dollar.

I don't think it was by mistake they didn't pay their taxes, I'm guessing it was for the same reasons other people have stated the federal government is a corrupt unconstitutional organization that involves itself in thievery and they were protesting.

PS. Anyone look at their pay stub since the new year? New withholding laws the feds are keeping more of your money directly from your paycheck. It might be $5 or $50 but it's there.

 

[WILDCATT]

tax

look at SS.no increase for two yrs and an increase in medicare fee. which means a deduction in SS.medicare is 1200 a yr.
and I dont need it or use it.more change ya ya.

 

[Titan]

I don't think it was by mistake they didn't pay their taxes, I'm guessing it was for the same reasons other people have stated the federal government is a corrupt unconstitutional organization that involves itself in thievery and they were protesting.

PS. Anyone look at their pay stub since the new year? New withholding laws the feds are keeping more of your money directly from your paycheck. It might be $5 or $50 but it's there.

By '...come to their senses...', I meant they should have realized that their protest had dire consequences and taken an oportunity to end it (IF they didn't want to spend 'life in prison').

I didn't mean to imply that they didn't realize the taxes were 'overdue'.

 

[cekim]

I don't think it was by mistake they didn't pay their taxes, I'm guessing it was for the same reasons other people have stated the federal government is a corrupt unconstitutional organization that involves itself in thievery and they were protesting.

PS. Anyone look at their pay stub since the new year? New withholding laws the feds are keeping more of your money directly from your paycheck. It might be $5 or $50 but it's there.

I suggest everyone go through their withholding elections to ensure they are not lending the government money for free all year. Your goal should be to get a small refund at best, ideally pay a little without fines, fees or penalties.

Get out of the trap of treating the "refund" like free money that gets spent as soon as it shows up.

 

[TomH]

TomH,

So I assume you don't pay... or is your post just bluster?

I'm not arguing that the goverment is perfect.

I'm not arguing that there's anything wrong with civil disobedience in the form of tax protests.

I AM arguing that we are a nation of laws, and at some poiint in the 'tax protest' process, one either yields to that law, or pays the consequences.

The Browns are in prison as a result of their own actions. They chose to go to prison for a point of principle.

Fine. They have made their bed. Let's just not start whining now, that their punishment is unjust.


I'm as outraged as anyone about the injustice in the system, and the double standard represented by Geithner et al.

They remain gross injustices.

Every one of us can pay their taxes or act like the Browns.

It's an individual decision.


The Browns CHOSE to not pay ANY taxes and fight the issue to the end.
I can only assume they're happy with the result, since they made conscious decisons all along the process.

I pay, I'm just not dumb enough to call it right, or "just" that someone would go to prison for not paying.

 

[dwarven1]

A 'bit' of an exaggeration, no?

They took it a bit further than simply not paying their taxes.

Really? Did they kill anyone? Shoot any marshals? Or just hole up and not come out?

Sorry, they're not a threat to society at large and shouldn't be locked up. They're more of a threat to the way of life that our legistraitors love to lead.

 

[Titan]

I pay, I'm just not dumb enough to call it right, or "just" that someone would go to prison for not paying.

I thought so.

 

[Titan]

Really? Did they kill anyone? Shoot any marshals? Or just hole up and not come out?

Sorry, they're not a threat to society at large and shouldn't be locked up. They're more of a threat to the way of life that our legistraitors love to lead.

Certainly you understand that our tax system is based on voluntary compliance.

The only way for a compliance-based system to work is to have the penalties be harsh.

When anyone deliberately opposes the law and takes it to the level the Browns did, there are consequences.

Consequences that the Browns could have predicted at multiple points along their protest.

They chose defiance and therefore imprisonment.

Clearly anyone who currently pays their taxes (and I assume that includes you) understands what the Browns apparently couldn't, or chose to flaunt.

I'm not saying there aren't gross injustices and inequities in the system. Most of us comply because it's the law and we prefer law to anarchy.

This isn't rocket science.

 

[KBCraig]

Certainly you understand that our tax system is based on voluntary compliance.

The only way for a compliance-based system to work is to have the penalties be harsh.

Claiming that a system with harsh penalties is "voluntary" is no different than being mugged at gunpoint, then saying you "donated" money to the underprivileged.

 

[namedpipes]

Certainly you understand that our tax system is based on voluntary compliance.

The only way for a compliance-based system to work is to have the penalties be harsh.

When anyone deliberately opposes the law and takes it to the level the Browns did, there are consequences.

Consequences that the Browns could have predicted at multiple points along their protest. ...

Rape and murder are crimes that the majority of us comply with (by not comitting those crimes).

A muderer could easily get less jail time than the Browns.

A rapist (at least in Mass) could get an apology from the Judge for his mistreatment at the hands of justice.

The Browns wouldn't pay money to a government that they believed had become corrupt.

You can't POSSIBLY think justice was served?

Go ahead and think Ed Brown was a tin foil conspiricist if you like. Hell, he probably was a sandwich short of a picnic. For that matter, if he was *completely* nuts that makes this all the worse. The "State" should have found a way to "Help".

What, do you work for the IRS or something?

This government, the justice system and society failed the Browns.

 

[Titan]

Claiming that a system with harsh penalties is "voluntary" is no different than being mugged at gunpoint, then saying you "donated" money to the underprivileged.

You shouldn't take everything so literally.

'Voluntary' simply means the tax guy doesn't come to your house and stand over you while you right a check. It means individuals fill out and file tax returns and send along their payment when applicable.

 

[Titan]

Rape and murder are crimes that the majority of us comply with (by not comitting those crimes).

A muderer could easily get less jail time than the Browns.

A rapist (at least in Mass) could get an apology from the Judge for his mistreatment at the hands of justice.

The Browns wouldn't pay money to a government that they believed had become corrupt.

You can't POSSIBLY think justice was served?

Go ahead and think Ed Brown was a tin foil conspiricist if you like. Hell, he probably was a sandwich short of a picnic. For that matter, if he was *completely* nuts that makes this all the worse. The "State" should have found a way to "Help".

What, do you work for the IRS or something?

This government, the justice system and society failed the Browns.

The other take is that the Browns earned a lot of money and decided they'd rather keep it all than pay the tax due on the income (great idea, if you can pull it off).

The Browns then decided to use a 'tax protest' as their excuse for non-payment. They flaunted the law and paid a price.

There were opportunities for the government to 'help' as you phrase it.

There were also opportunities for the Browns to come to their senses and negotiate a reduced tax and/or payment plan.


No, I don't work for the IRS....just a common sense taxpayer, like you...assuming you're not also refusing to pay what you 'owe'.

.

 

[drgrant]

You shouldn't take everything so literally.

'Voluntary' simply means the tax guy doesn't come to your house and stand over you while you right a check. It means individuals fill out and file tax returns and send along their payment when applicable.

Yeah, well, normally voluntary means you can opt out of it. Try opting out of paying income taxes and get back to us on how well that works for you. Anything less than an opt out is like saying "Oh, they're going to shoot you, but they will send a notice in the mail first, so that means it's voluntary. "

-Mike

 

[Titan]

BTW, I think we're now officially beating this issue to death.

 

[namedpipes]

The other take is that the Browns earned a lot of money and decided they'd rather keep it all than pay the tax due on the income (great idea, if you can pull it off).

The Browns then decided to use a 'tax protest' as their excuse for non-payment. They flaunted the law and paid a price.

There were opportunities for the government to 'help' as you phrase it.

There were also opportunities for the Browns to come to their senses and negotiate a reduced tax and/or payment plan.


No, I don't work for the IRS....just a common sense taxpayer, like you...assuming you're not also refusing to pay what you 'owe'.

.

The scrivener in me has to mention the word is 'flout', not 'flaunt'.

If their plan was a "scheme" to keep the money then they of course would have taken any of the numerous "outs" you mention. So we are left with a legitimate protest.

Yes, I pay my taxes. They are involuntarily removed from my paycheck each month before I ever see it, to ensure I never realize the extent of the robbery.

I have to spend yet MORE money for an accountant to put together a tax return that resembles a small telephone book, just to ensure I get back SOMETHING.

 

[TomH]

What, do you work for the IRS or something?

I think he's heavily invested in KY lube stock.

 

[cekim]

I have to spend yet MORE money for an accountant to put together a tax return that resembles a small telephone book, just to ensure I get back SOMETHING.

And the magic of this system of complexity coupled with deduction "so you won't notice it" is not lost on them...

 

[Titan]

The scrivener in me has to mention the word is 'flout', not 'flaunt'...

FYI, according to Mirriam Webster...

FLAUNT...
1 : to display ostentatiously or impudently : parade <flaunting his superiority>
2 : to treat contemptuously <flaunted the rules — Louis Untermeyer>

synonyms see show

— flaunt noun

— flaunt·ing·ly \ˈflȯn-tiŋ-lē, ˈflän-\ adverb

— flaunty \-tē\ adjective

usage Although transitive sense 2 of flaunt undoubtedly arose from confusion with flout, the contexts in which it appears cannot be called substandard <meting out punishment to the occasional mavericks who operate rigged games, tolerate rowdyism, or otherwise flaunt the law — Oscar Lewis> <observed with horror the flaunting of their authority in the suburbs, where men…put up buildings that had no place at all in a Christian commonwealth — Marchette Chute> <in our profession…very rarely do we publicly chastise a colleague who has flaunted our most basic principles — R. T. Blackburn, AAUP Bulletin>. If you use it, however, you should be aware that many people will consider it a mistake. Use of flout in the sense of flaunt 1 is found occasionally <“The proper pronunciation,” the blonde said, flouting her refined upbringing, “is pree feeks” — Mike Royko>.

 

[Titan]

I think he's heavily invested in KY lube stock.

You've obviously given up on winning the argument on the merits.

 

[namedpipes]

FYI, according to Mirriam Webster...

FLAUNT...
1 : to display ostentatiously or impudently : parade <flaunting his superiority>
2 : to treat contemptuously <flaunted the rules — Louis Untermeyer>

...

Wow.

Notwithstanding your research, your points about how fairly the Brown's were treated are just incredible.

Hey, any thoughts on that issue? You sort of stopped presenting any kind of fact or logic after stating that the government was right because we all have to do the same thing "because".

I contend that four decades in prison is not a just punishment for their "crime".

I FLAUNT in your general direction!

 

[Titan]

Wow.

Notwithstanding your research, your points about how fairly the Brown's were treated are just incredible.

Hey, any thoughts on that issue? You sort of stopped presenting any kind of fact or logic after stating that the government was right because we all have to do the same thing "because".

I contend that four decades in prison is not a just punishment for their "crime".

I FLAUNT in your general direction!

You can't possibly be reading my posts. I've made it very clear that the Browns got what they deserved and had ample opportunities to see the punishment that was coming their way.

They took a stand on political principal and paid the price.

I also made it very clear that the system we have depends on the application of excessive force toward violators or FLAUNTERS of the law.

I can't make it any plainer than I have and suggested several posts ago that we're beating this to death.