New Hampshire vs. Boston: Gun Homicide Rates for 2008

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(cross-posted at NLB) New Years Trivia

Q: What do guitars, pool tables, and baseball bats have in common?

A: They were involved in twice as many non-justifiable homicides in New Hampshire last year as firearms were.

From this list of New Hampshire's 20 homicides of 2008, here are the "weapons of choice" used.

1. Guitar, boot
2. Firearm
3. Sword
4. Knife (or other stabbing weapon)
5. Motor vehicle
6. Weapon not specified (blunt object)
7. Firearm
8. Weapon not specified (still under investigation)
9. Firearm (justifiable homicide, self-defense)
10. Pool table
11. Weapon not specified (information not released)
12. Weapon not specified (traumatic injury)
13. Knife (or other stabbing weapon)
14. Knife (or other stabbing weapon)
15. Weapon not specified (blunt object)
16. Baseball bat
17. Baseball bat
18. Knife (or other stabbing weapon)
19. Axe
20. Weapon not specified (multiple left rib fractures)

Compare and Contrast:

Two non-justifiable homicides (10% of all homicides) committed with a gun in the entire state of New Hampshire (population 1.32 million).

In the City of Boston (population approx. 600,000), there were 60 homicides recorded in 2008, 46 of which (77%) were committed with a firearm.

Gun Homicide Rates per 100,000 residents:

New Hampshire = 0.15
Boston = 7.7

Sure, there are a whole lot of apples and oranges being left out of the equation in this particular round of "My Statistics Can Beat Up Your Statistics" (such as violent, non-incarcerated, repeat offender population), but I'm still not seeing anything to justify Mumbles Menino's incessant calls to make his city the national model for legislation and policies that he claims have helped to prevent gun-related violence.

Anyone in this day and age who still thinks that strict gun control laws do anything to prevent drug-fueled, gang-related violence in the inner cities of America is a moron.
 
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see this is one of those things that makes too MUCH sense for people in boston, they automatically think that if you have a gun your going to shoot people, this is not exactly south central here and i mean we can bang our heads against the wall as much as we want but they wont listen. because the only way to actually carry a gun and not get sneered at is to be a cop, and even that is pushing it. they think only criminals want guns... yea right.

i still stand by the argument, guns dont kill people, husbands who come home early do.
 
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I'm certain thet Boston and NH have very different racial demographics. But we ... can't talk about that. Obama has said that cities and rural areas might need different approaches to gun control. Maybe, in his heart, he get it.
 
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demographics and racial differences have nothing to do with it, people are people plain and simple we are alike in more ways than we are different. there are shootings here and there in larger population areas (cities) than rural because duhh there are more people there. but you get one or two gangland shootings in the city that you know o, but have the guy with 30 bodies in his basement in the rural areas, might be an exaggeration but you get the point
 
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demographics and racial differences have nothing to do with it, people are people plain and simple we are alike in more ways than we are different. there are shootings here and there in larger population areas (cities) than rural because duhh there are more people there. but you get one or two gangland shootings in the city that you know o, but have the guy with 30 bodies in his basement in the rural areas, might be an exaggeration but you get the point

According to the FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, race does have something to do with it.
 
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demographics and racial differences have nothing to do with it, people are people plain and simple we are alike in more ways than we are different. there are shootings here and there in larger population areas (cities) than rural because duhh there are more people there. but you get one or two gangland shootings in the city that you know o, but have the guy with 30 bodies in his basement in the rural areas, might be an exaggeration but you get the point

Did you even read anything the OP wrote? He was comparing the entire state of NH to Boston.
 

terraformer

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According to the FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, race does have something to do with it.

But that is more than a racial issue, it is likely a cultural one. Equally as off limits a conversation but saying it is about race, without making the distinction that it is culture, can turn this into a bigoted genetics rant way too quickly and it fails to capture what is really happening. If for a moment, you permit me the latitude, think of the word Urban. You thought black, right? How about rural? White, right. What happens if black and white are removed or swapped with other races, say asian or hispanic. Then you have to deal with the socio-economic issues at play and race may not be the whole story. Hence, this is not about race, it is about urban culture.
 
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yes i did read but i might have been to quick to react, and i agree that it might be a culture thing, not national culture mind you but the culture of states, the culture of one city vs. another, the culture of neighboring towns. and its with those kinds of massive diffrences that lead to such controversy and political correctness, one cant stand another so everyone must talk one way, which if thats not communism then i dont know what is. then dosent that point to a bigger problem, where is this nation headed? and do we still want to be here when it gets there
 
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of course there aren't as many gun crimes in NH. . . everyone knows that the guns in NH that would be used in crime are being smuggled across the state border to used in crimes here in Mass.
 

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(cross-posted at NLB) New Years Trivia


In the City of Boston (population approx. 600,000), there were 60 homicides recorded in 2008, 46 of which (77%) were committed with a firearm.

New year's day one of my pizza drivers got hold up AGAIN. One of the robbers had a firearm other had a knife Lucky for them I was not the one who was delivering the food. That 60 number would have been higher for the city of Boston and that would not be happy new years day for some[grin]
 
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But that is more than a racial issue, it is likely a cultural one. Equally as off limits a conversation but saying it is about race, without making the distinction that it is culture, can turn this into a bigoted genetics rant way too quickly and it fails to capture what is really happening. If for a moment, you permit me the latitude, think of the word Urban. You thought black, right? How about rural? White, right. What happens if black and white are removed or swapped with other races, say asian or hispanic. Then you have to deal with the socio-economic issues at play and race may not be the whole story. Hence, this is not about race, it is about urban culture.

Urban ... culture. I'm thinking. I'm thinking that you've pointed out a difference without a distinction. It's semantic slight of hand that may allow one to approach a difficult subject from an oblique perspective. And I agree it's a difficult, and uncomfortable subject. But it is at the heart of the gun-ban debate, and no one wants to talk about it.

Consider the recent experience of the San Francisco suburb of Antioch, CA.

ANTIOCH, Calif. (AP) - As more and more black renters began moving into this mostly white San Francisco Bay Area suburb a few years ago, neighbors started complaining about loud parties, mean pit bulls, blaring car radios, prostitution, drug dealing and muggings of schoolchildren.

In 2006, as the influx reached its peak, the police department formed a special crime-fighting unit to deal with the complaints, and authorities began cracking down on tenants in federally subsidized housing.

Now that police unit is the focus of lawsuits by black families who allege the city of 100,000 is orchestrating a campaign to drive them out.

"A lot of people are moving out here looking for a better place to live," said Karen Coleman, a mother of three who came here five years ago from a blighted neighborhood in nearby Pittsburg. "We are trying to raise our kids like everyone else. But they don't want us here."

City officials deny the allegations in the lawsuits, which were filed last spring and seek unspecified damages.

Across the country, similar tensions have simmered when federally subsidized renters escaped run-down housing projects and violent neighborhoods by moving to nicer communities in suburban Washington, Chicago and Los Angeles.

But the friction in Antioch is "hotter than elsewhere," said U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development spokesman Larry Bush.

An increasing number of poor families receiving federal rental assistance have been moving here in recent years, partly because of the housing crisis.

A growing number of landlords were seeking a guaranteed source of revenue in a city hard-hit by foreclosures. They began offering their Antioch homes to low-income tenants in the HUD Section 8 housing program, which pays about two-thirds of every tenant's rent.

Between 2000 and 2007, Antioch's black population nearly doubled from 8,824 to 16,316. And the number of Antioch renters receiving federal subsidies climbed almost 50 percent between 2003 and 2007 to 1,582, the majority of them black.

Longtime homeowners complained that the new arrivals brought crime and other troubles. In 2006, violent crime in Antioch shot up about 19 percent from the year before, while property crime went down slightly.

"In some neighborhoods, it was complete madness," said longtime resident David Gilbert, a black retiree who organized the United Citizens of Better Neighborhoods watch group. "They were under siege."

So the Antioch police in mid-2006 created the Community Action Team, which focused on complaints of trouble at low-income renters' homes.

Police sent 315 complaints about subsidized tenants to the Contra Costa Housing Authority, which manages the federal program in the city, and urged the agency to evict many of them for lease violations such as drug use or gun possession. Lawyers for the tenants said 70 percent of the eviction recommendations were aimed at black renters. The housing authority turned down most of the requests.

Coleman said the police, after a complaint from a neighbor, showed up at her house one morning in 2007 to check on her husband, who was on parole for drunken driving. She said they searched the house and returned twice more that summer to try to find out whether the couple had violated any terms of their lease that could lead to eviction.

The Colemans were also slapped with a restraining order after a neighbor accused them of "continually harassing and threatening their family," according to court papers. The Colemans said a judge later rescinded the order.

Coleman and four other families are suing Antioch, accusing police of engaging in racial discrimination and conducting illegal searches without warrants. They have asked a federal judge to make their suit a class-action on behalf of hundreds of other black renters. Another family has filed a lawsuit accusing the city's leaders of waging a campaign of harassment to drive them out.

Police referred questions to the city attorney's office.

City Attorney Lynn Tracy Nerland denied any discrimination on the part of police and said officers were responding to crime reports in troubled neighborhoods when they discovered that a large number of the troublemakers were receiving federal subsidies.

"They are responding to real problems," Nerland said.

Joseph Villarreal, the housing authority chief, said the problems in Antioch mirror tensions seen nationally when poor renters move into neighborhoods they can afford only with government help.

"One of the goals of the programs is to de-concentrate poverty," Villarreal said. "There are just some people who don't want to spend public money that way."

Tensions like those afflicting Antioch have drawn scholars and law enforcement officials to debate whether crime follows subsidized renters out of the tenements to the suburbs.

Susan Popkin, a researcher at the nonprofit Urban Institute, said she does not believe that is the case. But the tensions, she said, are real.


"That can be a recipe for anxiety," she said. "It can really change the demographics of a neighborhood."

Note the bolded section. Ms. Popkin and other "scholars" are avoiding some unpleasant realities. That won't make them go away, as the good citizens of Antioch already know.
 
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yes i did read but i might have been to quick to react, and i agree that it might be a culture thing, not national culture mind you but the culture of states, the culture of one city vs. another, the culture of neighboring towns. and its with those kinds of massive diffrences that lead to such controversy and political correctness, one cant stand another so everyone must talk one way, which if thats not communism then i dont know what is. then dosent that point to a bigger problem, where is this nation headed? and do we still want to be here when it gets there

The topic is about gun control and the myth that it has any effect. Regardless of culture, population or location the stats prove that it is personal choice and not laws that determine gun violence.
 

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Urban ... culture. I'm thinking. I'm thinking that you've pointed out a difference without a distinction. It's semantic slight of hand that may allow one to approach a difficult subject from an oblique perspective. And I agree it's a difficult, and uncomfortable subject. But it is at the heart of the gun-ban debate, and no one wants to talk about it.

Consider the recent experience of the San Francisco suburb of Antioch, CA.

Note the bolded section. Ms. Popkin and other "scholars" are avoiding some unpleasant realities. That won't make them go away, as the good citizens of Antioch already know.

You are making my point for me, because those little unpleasant realities have a genesis in the ivory tower with scholars and those same scholars are starting to realize they made a fundamental mistake, that being the confusion of causation with correlation. I have the cite in my email somewhere but the basics are this. Some PhDs from chicago some twenty to thirty years ago did this study. They got some families, mostly single mothers struggling who were desperate to escape the inner city for their kids' futures. They facilitated this and studied the kids in their little fishbowl over the course of the next 15-20 years. Those kids were more likely to escape their socio-economic conditions and "succeed" by the usual metrics (education, earning power, etc) when compared to the typical Chicagoan.

This was a huge deal in the ivory tower and a huge push began to take the slums and dilute them with people who were in a better socio-economic status. In reality it was easier to dilute the better ring communities with the slums. So the feds started pushing subsidized housing in urban ring and suburban zones with the thinking that the problem would miraculously fix itself. This is the genesis of MA's Chapter 40B or the anti-snobbery rule. So now that the projects were dispersed into the outlying areas, peace to all, right? Wrong. The same people who did the original study went back and checked the results of the new efforts, thinking they would finally get their Nobels.

Funny thing happened on the way to the Geneva. Crime went up and it had spread out into areas with traditionally lower crime. The inner city yutes' just found less savy victims and more of them, going so far as to recruit them because no one would expect the good white kids of committing crimes. Well, the original study's authors eventually figured out their problem. In the original study they took people who wanted to get out and put them in a better environment. The anti-snob rules and the fed subsidization of housing in ring communities did not make such a distinction. They realized it was the influence of the parents combined with the better environment that made the difference.

Classic scientific mistake. Correlation != causation. And we are paying for this colossal cluster f*** and will be for a very long time. So yeah, it has nothing to do with race.
 

terraformer

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Is this right?
I think this may be a mistake.
More likely it was a Cuestick.
You'd have to be one big SOB to bludgeon someone with a Pool Table . [wink]

Well, to be fair you could bludgeon the pool table with a guys head with the same end result. Probably a lot easier too. [smile]
 
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Police sent 315 complaints about subsidized tenants to the Contra Costa Housing Authority, which manages the federal program in the city, and urged the agency to evict many of them for lease violations such as drug use or gun possession. Lawyers for the tenants said 70 percent of the eviction recommendations were aimed at black renters. The housing authority turned down most of the requests.

The police must be racist. [rolleyes]

Bout the pool table, if you were to whack someone's face off the table, you could be charged with A+B DW pool table. a few others that have made me look twice were door, wall, and vending machine.
 
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You are making my point for me, because those little unpleasant realities have a genesis in the ivory tower with scholars and those same scholars are starting to realize they made a fundamental mistake, that being the confusion of causation with correlation. I have the cite in my email somewhere but the basics are this. Some PhDs from chicago some twenty to thirty years ago did this study. They got some families, mostly single mothers struggling who were desperate to escape the inner city for their kids' futures. They facilitated this and studied the kids in their little fishbowl over the course of the next 15-20 years. Those kids were more likely to escape their socio-economic conditions and "succeed" by the usual metrics (education, earning power, etc) when compared to the typical Chicagoan.

This was a huge deal in the ivory tower and a huge push began to take the slums and dilute them with people who were in a better socio-economic status. In reality it was easier to dilute the better ring communities with the slums. So the feds started pushing subsidized housing in urban ring and suburban zones with the thinking that the problem would miraculously fix itself. This is the genesis of MA's Chapter 40B or the anti-snobbery rule. So now that the projects were dispersed into the outlying areas, peace to all, right? Wrong. The same people who did the original study went back and checked the results of the new efforts, thinking they would finally get their Nobels.

Funny thing happened on the way to the Geneva. Crime went up and it had spread out into areas with traditionally lower crime. The inner city yutes' just found less savy victims and more of them, going so far as to recruit them because no one would expect the good white kids of committing crimes. Well, the original study's authors eventually figured out their problem. In the original study they took people who wanted to get out and put them in a better environment. The anti-snob rules and the fed subsidization of housing in ring communities did not make such a distinction. They realized it was the influence of the parents combined with the better environment that made the difference.

Classic scientific mistake. Correlation != causation. And we are paying for this colossal cluster f*** and will be for a very long time. So yeah, it has nothing to do with race.

OK. I just cited the FBI Uniform Crime Statistics (which made squirt double angry!). I'm familiar with the other study you've cited. It's interesting discussion fodder for a sociology class. I think that the data show that black people commit homicides at a rate about eight times greater than whites. You can engage in polemical hand-wringing over the reasons why.

Further, and peripherally related to the matter at hand, I think that irresponsibility, including sexual promiscuity, substance abuse and welfare dependency in the black community is responsible for the problem.

I think that social welfare programs are designed with the intent of fostering dependency and ghettoizing the black population, regardless of liberal claims to the contrary. I think that abortion is forced into black communities to control the growth of the black population, regardless of what Planned Parenthood says.

I think that most people who aspire to better themselves, black and white, are more comfortable in predominantly white neighborhoods.

I think that most people understand what I've just said, but few will state it openly because it's ... uncomfortable to discuss it.

YMMV.
 
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Well, my original post didn't intend to get into the racial aspects of the discussion, and I did specifically say that a whole bunch of factors were excluded in my number crunching and the implied conclusions.

It does illustrate though that there are a boatload of factors that Menino and his gun-banning buddies are intentionally keeping out of the public discourse. They don't want to talk about their liberal friends sitting on court benches, who repeatedly let gangbangers walk with just a "compassionate" slap on the wrist.

They don't want to talk about their failed "drug bans", while pimping what they say will be effective "gun bans".

They will not allow any conversation to take place that doesn't involve disarming the peasantry.

They hide reality from the uninformed, while working to convince people that just FOUR MORE federal gun laws will curtail violent criminal activity.

As to Obama's suggestion that some areas of the country need more gun control, has anyone asked him which other Constitutional rights we should start selectively denying people based on their socio-economic status?

This whole notion that people living in big cities should have their rights curtailed "for the common good" should repulse everyone here.
 
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As to Obama's suggestion that some areas of the country need more gun control, has anyone asked him which other Constitutional rights we should start selectively denying people based on their socio-economic status?

This whole notion that people living in big cities should have their rights curtailed "for the common good" should repulse everyone here.

Those questions were raised after he made this suggestion. But they never advanced beyond the network of right wing blogs. The MSM ignored it altogether. I don't think that the "Constitutional scholar" has the slightest clue what the Constitution is.
 
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Those questions were raised after he made this suggestion. But they never advanced beyond the network of right wing blogs. The MSM ignored it altogether. I don't think that the "Constitutional scholar" has the slightest clue what the Constitution is.

That should read "Constitutional skuller", as in "Obama's gonna break open the Constitution's protective case, and skull-f*** it to death".
 

gene

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Maybe those people in New Hampshire can't shoot very well and a bat or guitar is more accurate![grin][smile]
 
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But that is more than a racial issue, it is likely a cultural one. Equally as off limits a conversation but saying it is about race, without making the distinction that it is culture, can turn this into a bigoted genetics rant way too quickly and it fails to capture what is really happening. If for a moment, you permit me the latitude, think of the word Urban. You thought black, right? How about rural? White, right. What happens if black and white are removed or swapped with other races, say asian or hispanic. Then you have to deal with the socio-economic issues at play and race may not be the whole story. Hence, this is not about race, it is about urban culture.

Not to rain on your parade or anything, but there are urban environments in NH as well.
 
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It simply illustrates what unbridled, Leftist, gun-grabbing policies do: They simply exacerbate violent crime categories, something they pledge will help mitigate.

So when the first wave of gun-control predictably doesn't work, as is the case in Boston, then they reach down in their hoplophobic-bag-o-treats, and pull out another one: Like mandatory waiting periods for handgun purchases, or increasing licensing costs into the stratosphere, or putting up a few more hoops that lawful gun owners have to jump through.

It just doesn't work! Comparing New Hampshire to Boston is a case point.
 
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You are making my point for me, because those little unpleasant realities have a genesis in the ivory tower with scholars and those same scholars are starting to realize they made a fundamental mistake, that being the confusion of causation with correlation. I have the cite in my email somewhere but the basics are this. Some PhDs from chicago some twenty to thirty years ago did this study. They got some families, mostly single mothers struggling who were desperate to escape the inner city for their kids' futures. They facilitated this and studied the kids in their little fishbowl over the course of the next 15-20 years. Those kids were more likely to escape their socio-economic conditions and "succeed" by the usual metrics (education, earning power, etc) when compared to the typical Chicagoan.

This was a huge deal in the ivory tower and a huge push began to take the slums and dilute them with people who were in a better socio-economic status. In reality it was easier to dilute the better ring communities with the slums. So the feds started pushing subsidized housing in urban ring and suburban zones with the thinking that the problem would miraculously fix itself. This is the genesis of MA's Chapter 40B or the anti-snobbery rule. So now that the projects were dispersed into the outlying areas, peace to all, right? Wrong. The same people who did the original study went back and checked the results of the new efforts, thinking they would finally get their Nobels.

Funny thing happened on the way to the Geneva. Crime went up and it had spread out into areas with traditionally lower crime. The inner city yutes' just found less savy victims and more of them, going so far as to recruit them because no one would expect the good white kids of committing crimes. Well, the original study's authors eventually figured out their problem. In the original study they took people who wanted to get out and put them in a better environment. The anti-snob rules and the fed subsidization of housing in ring communities did not make such a distinction. They realized it was the influence of the parents combined with the better environment that made the difference.

Classic scientific mistake. Correlation != causation. And we are paying for this colossal cluster f*** and will be for a very long time. So yeah, it has nothing to do with race.

I remember reading about this study, and some of the people later commented that the black families in question were interviewed and were seriously motivated to improve their current condition. When they started dishing out the funds the interviewing pretty much stopped and it became a pig trough of public funds.
 

Make It In Mass

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Is this right?
I think this may be a mistake.
More likely it was a Cuestick.
You'd have to be one big SOB to bludgeon someone with a Pool Table . [wink]

Mumbles Menino, when asked why he banned portable toilets ('Potta Potties' he called them) on City Hall Plaza for a championship celebration drawing over 100,000 people, responded: "People could use them as weapons".

I have never heard of anyone being arrested for brandishing a 'Porta Potty', but it is not too far removed from a pool table. [rofl]
 

terraformer

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Mumbles Menino, when asked why he banned portable toilets ('Potta Potties' he called them) on City Hall Plaza for a championship celebration drawing over 100,000 people, responded: "People could use them as weapons".

I have never heard of anyone being arrested for brandishing a 'Porta Potty', but it is not too far removed from a pool table. [rofl]

The belief is it can be used as a shelter to rape/beat/murder someone but definitely not weapons. It has happened in Paris, though not to epidemic proportions I am have to imagine. However I believe that usage is still theoretical here, because the units were in high traffic, hi-vis areas while in Paris, they burry them in low-vis places. Although they are a god send when you are walking around and you need one.
 
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race

I posted in the country gazett of Frankline a servey on crime aroun the world.
and stated if you took the ethnic group out the crime in USA would be less than in Britain.since then Britaian has increased its african and muslim population,resulting in much increased crime.[rofl] [laugh2] [rolleyes] [angry]
 
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