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Non-Ham: Radio Service ideas needed

Chris

Chris

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Hi guys.

As most/many/all of you know, I'm very involved with the operations of the annual Pan-Mass Challenge.

We've done a recent review of communication needs and are looking to replace everything we've been using if something better exists. First off, we can't get everyone a ham ticket, or shadow everyone with a ham operator, so all the wonderful infrastructure that exists for that service isn't going to work. For ultimate public safety, we have one of those homeland security funded mobile command posts assigned to us for the weekend, so getting quick contact with police, fire and medical isn't an issue. Its the comms related with the ride itself that is being looked at.

We need 2 basic systems:

1) Local communication

For local communications, we need portable radios/headsets capable of covering an honest 1 mile radius in a suburban setting both inside and outside buildings. We have five major sites. Sturbridge, Wellesley, and Bourne are all large campus/resort settings with multiple operations spread all over and need to be able to contact each other. The leaders in each of these areas will practically live on the radio, so comfort and ease of use is important. I'd love to use a lower power radio with a repeater in these locations.

Provincetown is another animal. We have multiple sites with many people covering most of the town. Currently, we place a repeater in the monument tower which seems to do the trick, so I'd like to keep that setup.

The radios need to be able to hold a day's worth of power (yes, I know it matters what the duty cycle is) or be able to be rapidly recharged so that fresh radios/batteries can be rotated as needed. I'd like if the radios can be setup to utilize both simplex as well as repeater operation. (and temporary repeater installation would be possible at all sites) A main calling channel and several 'private' channels to take critical operations to are needed. FRS and GMRS don't seem to be the right services. FRS for a sheer lack of range and GMRS for the limited channels (although it does allow repeaters) and odd licensing which doesn't seem to allow 'company' licenses..

I'm sure that there is some kind of commercial product out there and some kind of FCC license that can be had to service this kind of need, but I'm not sure what the options are or what kind of costs are involved. In the past, we've rented Motorola radios and batteries, but their condition is usually "well worn" to "worn out". The ride is looking to invest in their own equipment.

I am not concerned with people listening as we already have protocols to avoid any names over the air. I'm more concerned with all day use and reliability.

2) Mobile Communication.

We cover roads from Sturbridge to Wellesley, to Bourne, to Provincetown. Our base of operations at Mass Maritime Academy in Bourne (on the canal) and must be able to reliably communicate with any unit anywhere in the state. Our vehicles are rentals, personal, or loaners, so we can't install anything permanent. A Mag mount antenna attached to a simple mobile plugged into the lighter socket is perfectly acceptable.

In the past we used a trunked radio, but as the ride grew, you had different sections on different frequencies which really made it hard to find the vehicle you wanted. More recently we had NExtel donate phones and service, but this has two faults. 1) it's person to person, so anyone not on the conversation could not hear what was going on. Yes, they can set up 'groups', but due to technical issues the groups could not be larger than 6. Last year I had 50 phones and had to be really careful who got them because demand was far higher than that.

Multiple channels would be ideal, but not necessary as everyone has a cell phone that can be used for more critical communications.

The trick here isn't the equipment, but how to get the range needed with reliability. Most of our ride tries to stay off the beaten path to avoid being a traffic hazard. (for some reason, 5,000 bicycles and your average Saturday and Sunday traffic don't seem to get along all the time - go figure)


So, if anyone has any suggestions regarding either of these two radio services, please share.
 
I know that you said no Ham Radio...but the whole Boston Marathon is run by Ham Operators.

Why not work with a group that's already used to doing this and getting their input on this? The Norwood Club is HUGE with working on the Marathon...

Just saying, you'll get the distance, the use of people that have already been doing this...and people that are comfortable with this type of event.
 
Yes, the MMRA is also a huge participant with the Marathon and with the Charles River Regatta. I've worked both in the past. That service is all based on stationary locations with bodies everywhere. For 26 miles and 8 towns over a closed course, it's not that hard to do. Our event is longer than 350 miles covering 2 full days (and even some night logistics) involving 47 cities and towns on roads that are not closed to the public. Our "rest areas" double the population of many of the towns they are situated in. And be sure to add in a number of off-route errors that are made (even Billy Star managed to take a group off route one year).

The road crew is about 43-48 vehicles depending on volunteers. We operate out of small mini-vans where one person is a bicycle mechanic and the other is a nurse, doctor, paramedic, or EMT. That leaves room to seat only 3 riders, or one that needs to lay down. Really can't carry an extra body there. In the transport vehicles, space is greater, but each crew takes a rider seat. Except for the bus, we only have one person assigned to those 15 passenger vans.

I don't even know a Ham repeater or even a repeater network that can cover half the ride. You'd be coordinating multiple clubs/repeater owners, or setting up cross-repeat over HF.

The route coverage issue is not a simple one. There has been talk of using the event as a yearly 'test' of the statewide emergency network. I'd love to see that happen, but I can't plan on it as there are way too many fiefdoms that need to be appeased to make it happen.
 
Well then there is not going to be an easy answer. But I think that the event organizers should look into getting GMRS licenses for everyone that needs a radio. But the cost for equipment is gonna be big, I wonder if you could get a grant. The only other thing I can think of is FRS but the range on those is very limited.
 
Nextel Push to Talk. It was designed for this. You can setup groups etc. Work just like 2 way radios.
Don't bother iwth the stores for this though. Go directly to Nextel for them to get the correct phones and setup.

The govt uses it like this.
 
How about working with some of the ham repeaters and have them link via echolink for this. It would probably work well (technically), but be a nightmare to keep that many repeaters under 'net control' for the time period.

Heck, if you could get everyone using a cell phone for internet access, you could use a IM chat or voice client to talk without licenses (or use echolink).

Good luck!
 
Some neat ideas...

We were sponsored by Nextel a few years. The ride has 50 gps phones. Coverage on the route is VERY spotty in many places. PTT groups in theory are great, in practice fail miserably beyond about 4 or so. If you are out of service range, you can easily get kicked from the group and not know it. Or, if you needed to contact someone outside your group, both of you would be booted from your group. Since the people who are using the equipment are mostly non-technical, it didn't work out very well as they would get kicked and not be able to get back in. The GPS Comet tracker is pretty good and we'll keep the phones for that, but for communications, not so good. Heck, the person who is in charge of all the medical could not get the hang of it at all and used their person cell phone which made some things more difficult.

Ham radio would be great and I know a lot of the technology already is in place to do the links etc. except we can't fit another body into the vans and there is no way we'd get enough licensed operators from the crew. (when I asked a few years ago, I got 5 out of about 80 people that would be interested plus the 6 or so of us that already have a ticket.)

The cellphone with internet chat might work if we could get a verizon or ATT to step up. My only real fear with this is again the technical issue of keeping it foolproof. Even with the GPS, until I made it an automatic run item on startup, there were always a few people who could never follow the directions and had to be talked through the process. With a 'few' it wasn't too bad, but that process was just to call up a menu and select a menu item. If I can't reliably get people to do that, logging into a chat is likely to be more of an issue. Heck getting people to switch a radio from one trunk to another caused problems when all they had to do was turn a knob. That would be less of a problem today as everyone has a cell phone that could be used to call them and tell them to switch, but if a system exists that didn't require that effort, that would be better.

I won't even get into the amount of time teaching the push to talk process on the Nextel involved. "you have to wait for the tone" "you need to let go to listen" etc.

I know I'm doing nothing but shooting down ideas. Not because they are bad - heck, I love many of them. I'd love to get 2 meter HTs and have volunteers rig up and maintain the repeater links and watch the magic happen, but logistically I can't fit a body with a license into the vehicles. I need to explain the issues I've had on the hopes that someone can tell me that I'm not justified with them. You need to understand that we thought the Nextel PTT was going to be the perfect situation. But, after 4 years of using it, getting the 'experts' involved, and seeing it fail again and again, it just isn't worth the hassle.
 
If you can't get another body in the vans, then get a ham to shadow the van in another vehical. Many would be happy to do this. I'd volunteer if it could offset my (bike) rider's cost (she stopped riding a while ago due to the costs involved).

With such a large area to cover, and your non-techincal (radio savvy) staff, you application is crying for ham-radio operators. So find a way to include them, rather than exclude them. ;)

Good luck and let us know what you finally decide to do. It's an interesting dillema.
 
Trust me, I'm not trying to exclude. I've just yet to see a viable solution. 'Shadowing' does not sound like a good solution. I'd still have comms issues to and from the paired vehicles, more vehicle issues on the road, and potentially issues with parking and such for another set of vehicles in some venues. I'd also have the likely need for 2 people in each 'chase' vehicle as driving along the same roads as the ride is not the time to attempt to use the radios involved.

As for the costs, that's a symptom of the overall problem. The ride is at saturation. So, the only way to maximize the donation is to make the 'costs' as high as the saturation rate will bear. As it is we turn away people every year because we can't fit them into the ride logistically.

But keep the ideas coming please.

Hmm. Do you think we can get Hams to volunteer to get trained as Bicycle Mechanics and EMTs? (^_^)
 
What about this....

Have each ham operator (that you can get) give his cell phone to 10 or 15 of the race vehicle drivers. When they have an issue, they can call the ham they are assigned to? Then that ham can either respond directly or use the radio to figure out who is closest/best equipped to respond. Each ham is in his own vehicle so he is not taking up space in the other vehicles.

/John
 
SQUELCH said:
What about this....

Have each ham operator (that you can get) give his cell phone to 10 or 15 of the race vehicle drivers. When they have an issue, they can call the ham they are assigned to? Then that ham can either respond directly or use the radio to figure out who is closest/best equipped to respond. Each ham is in his own vehicle so he is not taking up space in the other vehicles.

/John
Click to expand...


This, folks, is thinking outside the box!
 
That's kind of what we have now with the Nextels. Only it's 1 comms operator to every 6 rather than 10-15 and all those comms operators are all in the same room. The problem is that when operator #1 is talking to vehicle #16, NOBODY else on the road can hear what is going on. Since so many of the conversations regard logistics (parts, people, bikes, supplies, etc) it is important for others to know what is going on.

For example, Transport Van calls in to tell Command that they are full and there is one rider left for transport, it would be nice to have Van 6 who just left that area empty to be able to hear that and jump in to say "I can take that single to XYZ as I'm heading there next" rather than dispatch another transport.

Or, a call goes out for Campagnolo part XYZ. Van 57 just happens to have one of those exotic parts and can respond. Right now, it can take a LONG time to relay that kind of message. And if Van A has one part that Van B has the conversion kit for that replaces the missing part, it takes forever to work out the details. (Sure, it would be nice to have a good list of all the parts that are in each van, but volunteers bring a lot of the esoteric stuff and every attempt to get people to tell us what they are bringing has never worked out as you'll have last minute stuff thrown in, or stuff forgotten.)

Heck, even a simple "where is the lead/end of the ride" is something that few people know because we don't have the big map in front of us. Info like that can help patrol teams to deploy themselves and get a better idea where the gaps are. We tried texting that info, but ran into three problems:

1) bulk texts are not guaranteed delivery so if you have no service, you get no message (Ok for regular updates, but terrible for important things)
2) Not everyone know how to read text messages.
3) The service costs a lot for the weekend.
 
What you need is something with 2 channels it sounds like. Channel 1 all vehicles to monitor (this could be the big group of Nextel phones or a ham channel for listening only). Channel 2 is for back and forth between cars and net control (you really need a form of central net control). It would go like this:

1) A bike near car 54 has a problem and needs tire model A
2) Car 54 calls net control directly on channel 2 (even on cell phone - no one else needs to here this).
3) Net control asks "Car 54, where are you?" (sorry, had to be done)
4) Car 54 responds: "i'm at location x and need a model A tire"
5) Net control calls out over channel 1 saying "I need a model A tire at location X" (could be a large group of Nextel phones or a ham channel - remember they are only listening! no license needed)
6) Car 53 calls net control - cell phone call is ok - and says I have a tire model a and can get it to location X"
7) Net control coordinates with car 53 to get to car 54, or puts them in direct contact (conference call).
8) Net control calls out over channel 1: "Model A tire found and situation resolved thanks to car 53. Thanks."

So, it seems to me what you need is:

1) An office phone set up at a central command center manned by operators/experts/etc. needed for support. Several lines should be available at that call center so you can have several conference calls at once. Main operator triage's incoming calls and forwards them to appropriate expert/coordinator. Experts/Coordinators make requests for broadcast over your chosen method.

1a) A ham operator to make the calls for assistance if you are broadcasting on ham bands

2) Nextel phones or ham band HT's FOR LISTENING ONLY in every car. (fixes your groups be broken up inadvertently)

3) Cell phones in every car for calling net control directly.

How's that?

1) fixes your group issue with nextel.
2) Manages communication tightly and privacy (if someone gets hurt you are not broadcasting personal info which is important).
3) minimal training: "listen to the radio, call me on your cell at XXX-XXX-XXXX if you need something"
4) You'd need to train your net control folks well, but that's not hard as it is a smaller group of people.

Matt
 
Chris said:
§97.111 "Authorized transmissions" specifically prohibits this kind of 1-way transmissions.
Click to expand...

I knew you were going to say that as soon as I hit "submit"! LOL!

So use nextel. It'll have as good of coverage as you are likely to get with ham over the range of operation. Just use them differently than in the past.
 
matt said:
I knew you were going to say that as soon as I hit "submit"! LOL!

So use nextel. It'll have as good of coverage as you are likely to get with ham over the range of operation. Just use them differently than in the past.
Click to expand...

Nextel does not have good coverage. Many many many places of no service along our route. And it does not solve the problem of allowing everyone to listen in. Trust me, we've been fighting this battle now for 4 years. It simply does not work.
 
Is it logistically feasible get one person on each of the vehicle teams to get licensed?
e.g:
Set up a special VE session to coincide with one of the planning meetings, then pre-plan who goes into which car to ensure that there is at least one ham present.

Other pieces of trivia to consider:

The "control operator" and the person actually keying the microphone don't necessarily have to be one and the same. As long as the operator is close enough to control the unlicensed person (and trusted enough not to screw around), an unlicensed person could be talking through that station. Think of it like taking a new shooter to the range. Your gun, your license, your club membership, their trigger finger.

And lastly, have backup systems. Every wireless system that I've had the pleasure of working (cellular, ham, C.B., GMRS, FRS, Part15, etc) has gone useless on me when I really needed it at least once. Don't bet your assets on any particular one of them.
 
Not sure if this exception in part 97 helps or not... I may provide relief of the one way transmission bit.

(b) In addition to one-way transmissions specifically authorized elsewhere in this Part, an amateur station may transmit the following types of one-way communications:

(1) Brief transmissions necessary to make adjustments to the station;

(2) Brief transmissions necessary to establishing two-way communications with other stations;

(3) Telecommand;

(4) Transmissions necessary to providing emergency communications;

(5) Transmissions necessary to assisting persons learning, or improving proficiency in, the international Morse code;

(6) Transmissions necessary to disseminate information bulletins;

(7) Transmissions of telemetry.
Click to expand...

I can't find a definition of "informational bulletin". What they are trying to prevent is someone acting like a broadcast station or proselytizing over the airwaves. Besides, if a ham or two is legitimately in the service of the ride, then it's not one way if the respond "acknowledged" periodically.

I'd contact the area section manager for ARRL about it. I bet you could get by under this exception.
 
Logistically, absolutely. I have several friends who would gladly set up a VE session. And I've been able to hold meetings and get more than half the crew attending. The problem is interest. The last time I took a show of hands, out of the group of 80+, 5 had licenses, 8 were interested. The vast majority of what I heard after was a dislike of taking tests.

It would be VERY hard to assign people before the event. Since many of the volunteers are medical professionals, they are sometimes called to work on minimal notice. There is almost always a last minute juggle of assignments just to keep the 1 mechanic/1 medical in each vehicle. (there are a few of us that can be considered 'both', but we always have a crew of 2 because it is extremely difficult to drive and conduct the work of the ride at the same time.)

Yes, I know the def of "Control Operator". But even at the most lax reading of that, the operator would have to be in the vehicle. Even if all he did was nap in the back, eat bon bons and complain about the way riders smell after 80 miles, the licensee needs to be in reach of the radio. Honestly, I'm not at all concerned with the crew. I've been told many times by public service authorities that our crew are some of the most professional they've ever seen. One MA city chief of police in particular commented after sitting in our command center for an afternoon that "nobody would ever know these people do this once a year and are volunteers".

Our backups have varied over the years, but currently it's the personal cell phone of the crew. Most people know how to use their own phone, and it usually gives a mix of service providers so that someone has a signal. Both Verizon and ATT seem to have no holes on the route, or if there are, they are small. We had one year where the trunked radios didn't work. Seems the company we leased the trunk access from didn't update the repeaters for the weekend and nobody could get in touch with the support staff. We ended up relaying messages van to van over the mobile rigs that the bus company had in them. (Van Pool donates the use of their vehicles for the weekend) I hope to never have to do that again.

The more I think of this the easier it would be if I could just get everyone that joined the crew to get a ticket. (^_^) Too bad we don't have support volunteers getting turned away like we have riders... (^_^)
 
matt said:
Not sure if this exception in part 97 helps or not... I may provide relief of the one way transmission bit.

I can't find a definition of "informational bulletin". What they are trying to prevent is someone acting like a broadcast station or proselytizing over the airwaves. Besides, if a ham or two is legitimately in the service of the ride, then it's not one way if the respond "acknowledged" periodically.

I'd contact the area section manager for ARRL about it. I bet you could get by under this exception.
Click to expand...

The answer I got from the ARRL is that the type of messages that the PMC command would want to send would not be in the spirit of the exceptions as the bulletins would not be directed at the amateur community and "informational only". For example, the desired 'broadcast' style messages would be of a requesting nature like "A rider at XYZ needs SOMETHING".

This event is like the perfect exercise of the amateur service. It's just the freaking logistics of getting a licensed person a part of the equation that makes the issue difficult.
 
Perhaps the best thing is to just use cell phones as they are normally used.

Let everyone know the control center's phone number to dial in.

Let the control center will have a list of every vans phone number. When a rider needs help, the van dials the control center. The control center can then call someone to dispatch help, parts, etc.

This way if someone is really hurt, the van dials 911 first, control center second.

Or, as I mentioned, have a ham shadow the van in their own vehical. Perhaps add a FRS radio between the ham and each Van.
 
Chris said:
Hmm. Do you think we can get Hams to volunteer to get trained as Bicycle Mechanics and EMTs? (^_^)
Click to expand...

How hard can it be to change a tire on a bike, most of us have been doing it since we were kids.

Remember, most hams know how to use tools. Just have a crash course in the bike repairs most hams will run into on your course, make it a requirement of the hams helping, and then put them in the van as a combo mechanic/ham.

EMT is a bit tougher... takes more training.
 
R1ch said:
Perhaps the best thing is to just use cell phones as they are normally used.

Let everyone know the control center's phone number to dial in.

Let the control center will have a list of every vans phone number. When a rider needs help, the van dials the control center. The control center can then call someone to dispatch help, parts, etc.

This way if someone is really hurt, the van dials 911 first, control center second.
Click to expand...

Basically, this how we operated last year, but with Nextel PTT instead of phone. It is not ideal. It takes forever to inform everyone of something. Two years ago we had a squall line hit the route near the end of the ride and needed to mobilize to pick up or shelter riders. A few years before we had to stop the ride due to a major accident. Those kind of events need to be communicated quickly.
 
R1ch said:
How hard can it be to change a tire on a bike, most of us have been doing it since we were kids.

Remember, most hams know how to use tools. Just have a crash course in the bike repairs most hams will run into on your course, make it a requirement of the hams helping, and then put them in the van as a combo mechanic/ham.

EMT is a bit tougher... takes more training.
Click to expand...

As a prior cyclist...I can tell you that bike repair can be very tricky. More so on these newer bikes. I used to be a Catagory 3 Ranked Cyclist when I was younger...did a lot of racing...and the multitude of adjustments on the drivetrain alone to keep derailers from over/under shifting can be tough. Then add in the adjustments to the cables to keep the derailers working properly is a lot of just having that "knack" to getting it working right. Then add in not only changing tires, to falling and warping a rim and having to correctly adjust spokes, to a ton of the other things that can go wrong. My old Peugeot PH 501 (which I still Ride once and a while) with manual shifting was a lot of fun to work on... Now the shifing is a little nicer as one click is a gear...no need to "feel" your gears...but take a little more adjusting because that one click might be in the wrong place....

Long winded...but a "crash course" can still be a very long process. LOL!
 
Here is an idea way outside the box:

Conference call. All cells phones call into a single conference number. Everyone stays in the conference for then entire day. If someone loses signal, they just call back in.

This allows cell phones and land lines to participite with no radio equipment needed.

You could get a company like freeconference.com to sponsor it and give it for free.
 
Chris said:
The more I think of this the easier it would be if I could just get everyone that joined the crew to get a ticket. (^_^) Too bad we don't have support volunteers getting turned away like we have riders... (^_^)
Click to expand...

Dealing with the mobile units is a tough problem.
Anything with enough range usually requires a license.

For linking fixed sites, I've been wondering about the feasibility of putting together a ham to <pick a no-license radio technology> patch system.

Taking a look at GMRS systems (they do have repeater capabilities), I discovered this:
http://www.mygmrs.com/view?id=193
and saw the ham callsign for the owner:
n1oty

I wonder if he's seen this thread?
 

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