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Old Beater Swede- How Will it Shoot?

Mountain

Mountain

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During my primer hunt last Friday I ran across an old beater Swedish Mauser at a price that said, "Do it!". Actually it seems to be fully intact and matching, with what would be a pretty awesome stock if it were not covered in dings. The bore looks very good with a light, but the stock disc shows bore condition as a '3', which is the worst rating. LOL the bore still looks better than most milsurps I've seen- supposedly the Swedes were quite picky for their ratings.

I have some 6.5mm projectiles I shoot in my 6.5 Creedmoor AR and ordered some brass. All set with some loads to test and off to the range. Next post will be the range report with pics...

[mg]
 
Mountain said:
During my primer hunt last Friday I ran across an old beater Swedish Mauser at a price that said, "Do it!". Actually it seems to be fully intact and matching, with what would be a pretty awesome stock if it were not covered in dings. The bore looks very good with a light, but the stock disc shows bore condition as a '3', which is the worst rating. LOL the bore still looks better than most milsurps I've seen- supposedly the Swedes were quite picky for their ratings.

I have some 6.5mm projectiles I shoot in my 6.5 Creedmoor AR and ordered some brass. All set with some loads to test and off to the range. Next post will be the range report with pics...

[mg]
Click to expand...
I just picked up a beater M38 last week at a LGS. My disc is stemped 2 and the bore looks pretty okay after a lot of Butches, JB bore paste and Kroil on a felt 6.5mm puck...
 
Just Hoppes to clean mine. I didn't really see anything else that needed more. Kept going until patches were clean.

Shoot high but otherwise seems AOK. LOL now that I get home the sun is out but it was dark and raining at the range. Eyes kinda crappy today too, so next time I'll probably shoot better. That said, not bad for an old war horse at 100 yards. Oh, I forgot to remove the cleaning rod to shoot. It wasn't screwed in tightly and was probably slapping around and not helping accuracy.

yH07gvk.jpg


149asDk.jpg


Group is a little over 1.7", well within a SR-1 10-ring which is about 3/4" bigger than the Dirty Bird 10-ring (this target).

Rifle is fine.
 
Mountain said:
Varget pushing 140's. Supposedly Varget is not best for this caliber. I'll check the powder inventory and try what folks say is ideal.
Click to expand...
how can varget not be good? WTF is wrong with you. [pot]
maybe you can hunt down some old Nobel tins of powder?.

you need some VV powder for that swede.
 
Last edited:
PatMcD said:
I think that's a damn good shooter considering the limitations of the issue sights.
6.5 Swede is probably the sweetest caliber to shoot.
Click to expand...
no kidding, i struggled with the K31 last cmp at old colony to pull a silver out of my ass , i think this is my last year with notched style rear sights. Aperture from this point on. Eyes are just not seeing the sights these days. The new Rx helped with frontsight but those rear notch and V sights ....uggh
 
Loaded up two more powders-
H4895 - Doesn't seem to fill as well, max is only 35.8 grains. It does meter beautifully- nice fine stuff that flows like water.
IMR 4350 - fairly large grain stick powder. Good case fill. Does not meter well. Might be the best powder for velocity. Maybe will shoot this weekend.
 
Mountain said:
Loaded up two more powders-
H4895 - Doesn't seem to fill as well, max is only 35.8 grains. It does meter beautifully- nice fine stuff that flows like water.
IMR 4350 - fairly large grain stick powder. Good case fill. Does not meter well. Might be the best powder for velocity. Maybe will shoot this weekend.
Click to expand...
When I was looking into getting a swede IIRC loaders where all giddy over Reloader 22.
Are you looking for the most case volume for powder charge? If you PM some details I can run them through quick loads. ?
 
mac1911 said:
When I was looking into getting a swede IIRC loaders where all giddy over Reloader 22.
Are you looking for the most case volume for powder charge? If you PM some details I can run them through quick loads. ?
Click to expand...

I'm below max and don't mind posting publicly:
- Lapua brass, CCI 200 primers for all.
- Ruled out Hornady 123 ELD Match, made bigger groups.
- Thus for now I'm using Nosler RDF 140's seated to 3.050".
- Varget 34.0 grn --> 1.7" group 100 yds
- H4895 34.0 grn --> ?
- IMR 4350 44.0 grn --> ?

Probably those RDF's can be seated longer for single load. I'll need to sacrifice a case for my OAL gage.

On another note, if I like and decide to keep it I will refinish the stock. Totally covered in dings and there are other issues with the finish so it's not like I'm wrecking history. Dings really aren't that deep and should mostly steam out. Will either use BLO or maybe RLO if I'm feeling industrious.
 
Mountain said:
I'm below max and don't mind posting publicly:
- Lapua brass, CCI 200 primers for all.
- Ruled out Hornady 123 ELD Match, made bigger groups.
- Thus for now I'm using Nosler RDF 140's seated to 3.050".
- Varget 34.0 grn --> 1.7" group 100 yds
- H4895 34.0 grn --> ?
- IMR 4350 44.0 grn --> ?

Probably those RDF's can be seated longer for single load. I'll need to sacrifice a case for my OAL gage.

On another note, if I like and decide to keep it I will refinish the stock. Totally covered in dings and there are other issues with the finish so it's not like I'm wrecking history. Dings really aren't that deep and should mostly steam out. Will either use BLO or maybe RLO if I'm feeling industrious.
Click to expand...
you know 1.7" groups with those sights is probably a sub moa group with match sights or scope?

heres what QL spits out for your IMR load look over the details and see if theres something I should change. 44g of 4350 puts it into the red per QL ?
1596901200788.png
 
mac1911 said:
you know 1.7" groups with those sights is probably a sub moa group with match sights or scope?

heres what QL spits out for your IMR load look over the details and see if theres something I should change. 44g of 4350 puts it into the red per QL ?
View attachment 379063
Click to expand...

Hmm...

Yeah, that's concerning. Here's the data off of Hodgdon's site that lists IMR 4350:

BULLET WEIGHT140 GR. SPR SP
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.

Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure

Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
IMR
IMR 4350
0.264"
3.030"

41.0
2,486
39,300 CUP

45.0
2,677
46,000 CUP

****** ******
So per Hodgdon the max is 45.0 grains at 46,000 CUP. I have read the small ring Mauser action of the Swede can take 45,000 to 46,000 in operation and was proofed at 66,000. The 44.0 grains of IMR 4350 should generate ~44,325 CUP or at least below 45,000, assuming the curve between min to max is relatively linear.

I've yet to have a problem with data on Hodgdon's site and am unfamiliar with QL. That said, almost 59,000 psi would be a problem. This could be attributed to the difference between CUP psi and piezoelectric psi. CUP seems to read much lower. In any case, the standard for the old Swede was CUP units which is what Hodgdon lists.
 
I was going to suggest 4350, just be sure you're looking at load data for the RIGHT 4350 you're using.
 
jpm said:
I was going to suggest 4350, just be sure you're looking at load data for the RIGHT 4350 you're using.
Click to expand...

Yep, difference between H4350 and IMR 4350. Maybe they are close, but close is not equal.

***

Did a little more digging to check on the IMR 4350 load. Something I just ran across in the Nosler forum:

44gr IMR 4350 is your friend. My long time match load under a Hornady 140HPBT. Shoots to about the limit of the military sights on my M96 (sub 2 MOA to 300m). You can probably go a little warmer in your M70, consult Hodgedon online data. I'm using PRVI brass and Fed 210m primers
 
Mountain said:
Hmm...

Yeah, that's concerning. Here's the data off of Hodgdon's site that lists IMR 4350:

BULLET WEIGHT140 GR. SPR SP
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.

Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure

Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
IMR
IMR 4350
0.264"
3.030"

41.0
2,486
39,300 CUP

45.0
2,677
46,000 CUP

****** ******
So per Hodgdon the max is 45.0 grains at 46,000 CUP. I have read the small ring Mauser action of the Swede can take 45,000 to 46,000 in operation and was proofed at 66,000. The 44.0 grains of IMR 4350 should generate ~44,325 CUP or at least below 45,000, assuming the curve between min to max is relatively linear.

I've yet to have a problem with data on Hodgdon's site and am unfamiliar with QL. That said, almost 59,000 psi would be a problem. This could be attributed to the difference between CUP psi and piezoelectric psi. CUP seems to read much lower. In any case, the standard for the old Swede was CUP units which is what Hodgdon lists.
Click to expand...
would not say Quick loads is "correct" i would lean on actual manufacture data.
So far QL has been pretty good for me, especially with cast loads. Now if i could start to understand barrel time and stuff ?
I have no idea but came across this poking around?

Optimal Barrel Time Paper

www.the-long-family.com
 
rosco61 said:
You need a taller front sight. Like a 1.5 or a 2.0.

Swedish Mauser Front Sight Size +1.5 - Swedish

www.libertytreecollectors.com

Swedish Mauser Front Sight Tall +2 Size - Swedish

www.libertytreecollectors.com

These will bring down your point of aim at 100
Click to expand...
Wonder if these blanks fit the swede?

BROWNELLS MAUSER 91 DOVETAIL FRONT SIGHT BLANK | Brownells

.375 high blade lets you zero the Model 96 Swede and others to point of aim. Square post blade gives an easy-to-see, well ...
www.brownells.com
 
Mountain said:
Hmm...

Yeah, that's concerning. Here's the data off of Hodgdon's site that lists IMR 4350:

BULLET WEIGHT140 GR. SPR SP
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.

Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure

Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
IMR
IMR 4350
0.264"
3.030"

41.0
2,486
39,300 CUP

45.0
2,677
46,000 CUP

****** ******
So per Hodgdon the max is 45.0 grains at 46,000 CUP. I have read the small ring Mauser action of the Swede can take 45,000 to 46,000 in operation and was proofed at 66,000. The 44.0 grains of IMR 4350 should generate ~44,325 CUP or at least below 45,000, assuming the curve between min to max is relatively linear.

I've yet to have a problem with data on Hodgdon's site and am unfamiliar with QL. That said, almost 59,000 psi would be a problem. This could be attributed to the difference between CUP psi and piezoelectric psi. CUP seems to read much lower. In any case, the standard for the old Swede was CUP units which is what Hodgdon lists.
Click to expand...
i dont think your swede will be happy until you get some Norma powder?
 
So the IMR 4350 seemed to do about the same as the Varget, maybe a little worse but I could have muffed a shot to do that. I could notice a little more recoil with this load but still relatively easy shooting. No signs of over-pressure- primers not flattened nor cratered, no difficulty extracting. I may try this powder again but at a load closer to the minimum. BTW, I've been neck sizing for this rifle.

However, the H4895 34.0 grn pushing Nosler 140 RDF's seems to do OK:

DgiSqj8l.jpg


1.581" - .264" = 1.317" 5-shot 100 yard group, which is close to my best with even peep type iron sights. Very easy shooting load as well. Added bonus that this load hits dead center. The Varget and 4350 were both slightly to the right. Not bad performance for a relatively cheap, old beater.

Also I would take the brass disc bore condition marking with a grain of salt. This one looked pretty good visually but was marked a '3' (worst of 1 to 3) on the disc. Perhaps the disc is not original to the rifle or the grading is super picky?

Now to order one of those taller front sights to get the groups down to at least 200 yard impact. I'll probably bring either this or the Finn Mosin to the October Old Colony Vintage match.
 
Mountain said:
So the IMR 4350 seemed to do about the same as the Varget, maybe a little worse but I could have muffed a shot to do that. I could notice a little more recoil with this load but still relatively easy shooting. No signs of over-pressure- primers not flattened nor cratered, no difficulty extracting. I may try this powder again but at a load closer to the minimum. BTW, I've been neck sizing for this rifle.

However, the H4895 34.0 grn pushing Nosler 140 RDF's seems to do OK:

DgiSqj8l.jpg


1.581" - .264" = 1.317" 5-shot 100 yard group, which is close to my best with even peep type iron sights. Very easy shooting load as well. Added bonus that this load hits dead center. The Varget and 4350 were both slightly to the right. Not bad performance for a relatively cheap, old beater.

Also I would take the brass disc bore condition marking with a grain of salt. This one looked pretty good visually but was marked a '3' (worst of 1 to 3) on the disc. Perhaps the disc is not original to the rifle or the grading is super picky?

Now to order one of those taller front sights to get the groups down to at least 200 yard impact. I'll probably bring either this or the Finn Mosin to the October Old Colony Vintage match.
Click to expand...
Whats the sight radius on that?
Im still a varget fan but Im working on the H4895 jug at the moment.

I might be wrong but RL22 might be made in sweden? Tou know you have to try some swidish powdah!
Hey I might have some RL22?
 
Last edited:
mac1911 said:
Whats the sight radius on that?
Im still a varget fan but Im working on the H4895 jug at the moment.
Click to expand...

Difference between Varget and H4895 was minimal and the variable is just as likely to be the loose screw pulling the trigger. I have just the one 1lb bottle of H4895 that's almost full, so may as well burn it up on something. The H4895 and Benchmark are the two rifle powders I have used that meter far better than anything. Once I set the powder drop the weights are within point-zero-something grains. Even Varget will drift plus or minus a grain or so if I don't watch it, at least for me.

I'll have to measure that sight radius but one of the message boards says 25.75" for a M96.

edit- Forgot it was dark and raining last time I shot the Swede. Light was good today and only a slight breeze now and then. Given the difference in conditions, I'd say that Varget and H4895 are probably very close in performance for this rifle. I did order a +1.5 sight from Liberty Tree, along with some stripper clips for the 6.5. The 1.5 taller sight should at least get the 200 yard zero. I'm OK if a little high for 100 yards.
 
Last edited:
Mountain said:
Difference between Varget and H4895 was minimal and the variable is just as likely to be the loose screw pulling the trigger. I have just the one 1lb bottle of H4895 that's almost full, so may as well burn it up on something. The H4895 and Benchmark are the two rifle powders I have used that meter far better than anything. Once I set the powder drop the weights are within point-zero-something grains. Even Varget will drift plus or minus a grain or so if I don't watch it, at least for me.

I'll have to measure that sight radius but one of the message boards says 25.75" for a M96.

edit- Forgot it was dark and raining last time I shot the Swede. Light was good today and only a slight breeze now and then. Given the difference in conditions, I'd say that Varget and H4895 are probably very close in performance for this rifle. I did order a +1.5 sight from Liberty Tree, along with some stripper clips for the 6.5. The 1.5 taller sight should at least get the 200 yard zero. I'm OK if a little high for 100 yards.
Click to expand...
Just poking around i stumbled across this
[/URL]
 
Mountain said:
Difference between Varget and H4895 was minimal and the variable is just as likely to be the loose screw pulling the trigger. I have just the one 1lb bottle of H4895 that's almost full, so may as well burn it up on something. The H4895 and Benchmark are the two rifle powders I have used that meter far better than anything. Once I set the powder drop the weights are within point-zero-something grains. Even Varget will drift plus or minus a grain or so if I don't watch it, at least for me.

I'll have to measure that sight radius but one of the message boards says 25.75" for a M96.

edit- Forgot it was dark and raining last time I shot the Swede. Light was good today and only a slight breeze now and then. Given the difference in conditions, I'd say that Varget and H4895 are probably very close in performance for this rifle. I did order a +1.5 sight from Liberty Tree, along with some stripper clips for the 6.5. The 1.5 taller sight should at least get the 200 yard zero. I'm OK if a little high for 100 yards.
Click to expand...
so your about 13" high at 100 yards? What do you need for a 200 yd zero about 6" high at 100?
any how 25.75 is right in that .006-.008" range to move 1" or .18 mm for one inch. So if your new 1.5mm sight is 1.5mm taller your looking at a 8" change in point of impact. ???
 
Last edited:
mac1911 said:
Just poking around i stumbled across this
[/URL]
Click to expand...

Linky no worky.

mac1911 said:
so your about 13" high at 100 yards? What do you need for a 200 yd zero about 6" high at 100?
Click to expand...

Yeah, 6:00 hold on the 'Dirty Bird' target puts the shots ~12" above POA, actually. Roughly I should be ~2" or 1-3/4" high on that target at 100 to be hitting center at 200. So I need to come down about 4" at 100.

If I'm doing this correctly:

6" variance X 25.75 sight radius / 3600 = .0429" or 1.09mm taller front sight. I ordered the 1.5mm taller front sight which should actually work for 100 yards and gives me a little room to play.
 

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