allen-1
NES Member
I put this thread in the hunting-trapping-fishing forum because it has to do with wildlife management, game cameras and "private land"
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"open fields"; authorities place game cameras on private land...
- Thread starter allen-1
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There is alot to unpack with this situation. This was not a situation where the land owner was an angel. The landowner here was cited for baiting doves x 8 (federal violation as doves are migratory birds) before the cameras were placed on the property. I get it.....private property......truly I do. Was this probable cause for wardens to place cameras on his land the next season? Wardens and cos do have the right to access private land if they have cause to believe a hunting violation is occuring.
It will be interesting to see what the court decides.
It will be interesting to see what the court decides.
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one-eyed Jack
Manufacturer
Well, remember that there is no "Private Land", unfortunately. The town owns all the land and you pay rent to live on it. Called RE tax. Even your house is owned by the town and you also pay them rent to live in it. Jack.
Not true, whoever is on the deed owns the home. Not the bank, not the town.
I think he's referring to taxes. What happens if you don't pay your property tax to the town? They eventually take the land for back taxes right? So do you really own it? Thinking from a libertarian viewpoint......you technically don't own your own land. They basically let me live on my property as long as I'm a good boy and pay my tax bill.
A concept that I happen to believe is true.
Wrong. Why do u think it’s called “Real Estate”. You own the land and everything on it and in it. The town collects taxes from you for having “your Real Estate” in their town. If u have a mortagage does the bank own your home? Nope...a mortgage is a lien that u agree to pay off in X amount of years at X amount of dollars. What ever the deed says is who owns the property. Don’t let the banks and town win
I understand the legal speak of it all. I'm talking about tying together the reality of the actual situation. If i don't pay my tax.....then who owns the house and land? Not me. So the town lets me live there for a fee.Wrong. Why do u think it’s called “Real Estate”. You own the land and everything on it and in it. The town collects taxes from you for having “your Real Estate” in their town. If u have a mortagage does the bank own your home? Nope...a mortgage is a lien that u agree to pay off in X amount of years at X amount of dollars. What ever the deed says is who owns the property. Don’t let the banks and town win
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Churches have what amounts to allodial title.
And, just like a rent controlled apartment, you can sell the lease to someone else who continues to pay at the same rate you would had you stayed.
KBCraig
NES Member
I understand the concept of "open land", both out West, and in NH. It's land that is not clearly closed to others.
The problem in these cases, is that the land was fenced, posted, and access was only through locked gates, after passing through an easement over two different parcels of private property. That land is no longer "open", but TWRA and USFS treated it as some open, unfenced land.
The problem in these cases, is that the land was fenced, posted, and access was only through locked gates, after passing through an easement over two different parcels of private property. That land is no longer "open", but TWRA and USFS treated it as some open, unfenced land.
I'm sure the twra is going to claim they were placing cameras due to an active investigation. The landowner had been cited for baiting the previous season. Remember......wardens and conservation officers can access private land without a warrant if they have reasonable suspicion that a hunting violation is taking place. So.....is a precvious violation cause enough to investigate the next season? The court will have to make that determination.
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KBCraig
NES Member
Not really. They can lose their tax-free status just by running afoul of those in power, at which time their property can be taxed and seized just like any other.
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In practicality, this depends on the church. If the govt tried that with the Papists, Jews or Muslims they would meet with very effective resistence. The Universal Life Church and Pastafarian Church, not so much.
Mark from MA
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This. Its a huge scam called The American Dream.....
Dont' pay your taxes, the The town takes it, puts a lein on it, or sells it to whoever will pay the back taxes.
And at least in MA, after paying 20 years of mortgage, your taxes after 20 years start to approach the same money as your old mortgage payment.
And in my Dads case, after 40 years, it exceeds his old mortgage payment. Feel good when you pay your mortgage off.....not really when your taxes end up being the same amount.
This is why I will NEVER retire here. Thats a huge rising yearly cost, that must be paid, that I will be glad to get rid of to move to a lower tax state.
It adds thousands to your retirement nest egg over time just moving to a place where the RE taxes are low.
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F-ing doves. Technically throwing bread to ducks is baiting them too.
Historically wardens have had too much power to infringe, watch north woods law, guilty until proven innocent and that show is edited to the teeth. Replace land with home (above), what is the difference. If your local PD thought your were a meth head would you want them searching your house or putting up cameras on your patio without a warrant? Its asinine.
I agree. I was just pointing out the facts. Never said I agreed with them.F-ing doves. Technically throwing bread to ducks is baiting them too.
Historically wardens have had too much power to infringe, watch north woods law, guilty until proven innocent and that show is edited to the teeth. Replace land with home (above), what is the difference. If your local PD thought your were a meth head would you want them searching your house or putting up cameras on your patio without a warrant? Its asinine.
A crazy thing happened in Maine a few years back. I was talking with the hare guide I use up there and he told me about it. It has to do with maine game wardens and maple syrup believe it or not. Seems the last decade or so it became more popular for owners of small parcels of land to tap their own maple trees for their own maple syrup. Well....the number of folks doing it increased to the point where some were selling raw sap to commercial syrup companies. The commercial tappers saw their demand drop due to the increase in small land owners jumping into the supply chain. Anywho.....regs changes so as a private land owner you were "allowed" to tap 10 trees.....more than 10 and you needed a licenseF-ing doves. Technically throwing bread to ducks is baiting them too.
Historically wardens have had too much power to infringe, watch north woods law, guilty until proven innocent and that show is edited to the teeth. Replace land with home (above), what is the difference. If your local PD thought your were a meth head would you want them searching your house or putting up cameras on your patio without a warrant? Its asinine.
So guess who was being tasked with enforcement? The game warden service because they had the ability to enter private land in their enforcement duties. If they saw taps on maple trees they could just walk on the private land and count taps!!!!!!
That right there is a prime example of an industry lobbying government to secure their profits from going to the little guy.
It’s definitely not owned by them, as long as you pay your taxes then all is well. If you don’t then they can lien the property or land until you pay. Rare occurrences it could get foreclosed on or taking in court
Sadly that happens all the timeA crazy thing happened in Maine a few years back. I was talking with the hare guide I use up there and he told me about it. It has to do with maine game wardens and maple syrup believe it or not. Seems the last decade or so it became more popular for owners of small parcels of land to tap their own maple trees for their own maple syrup. Well....the number of folks doing it increased to the point where some were selling raw sap to commercial syrup companies. The commercial tappers saw their demand drop due to the increase in small land owners jumping into the supply chain. Anywho.....regs changes so as a private land owner you were "allowed" to tap 10 trees.....more than 10 and you needed a license
So guess who was being tasked with enforcement? The game warden service because they had the ability to enter private land in their enforcement duties. If they saw taps on maple trees they could just walk on the private land and count taps!!!!!!
That right there is a prime example of an industry lobbying government to secure their profits from going to the little guy.
Interestingly, I doubt this would pass muster in a Massachusetts Court (assuming the judge follows precedent, a YUGE assumption). A case came down last week holding that pole cameras, placed on public telephones, but pointed at private homes, required a search warrant.
See https://www.mass.gov/files/documents/2020/08/06/p12890.pdf (Caption is Com v Mora, for anyone looking when this link expires)
See https://www.mass.gov/files/documents/2020/08/06/p12890.pdf (Caption is Com v Mora, for anyone looking when this link expires)
KBCraig
NES Member
FIFY
It's not at all rare. Tax lien foreclosures are very common, especially where newcomers drive up up property values and/or tax rates. The more frequent result is heirs selling off their inherited agricultural property because assessors appraise it at what it would be worth as subdivided residential property.
Well if you don’t pay your taxes the that’s on you. However higher appraisals are driven by the towns residents greed. If they are not protect agricultural land or the property of seniors via a tax break etc well that’s just short sighted. Hell if they apparatuses my 250 acres as residential I’d have to sell it. Instead the town allows protection when it is listed as either farm or similar land use.
The missing cameras were the excuse for the court-sanctioned home invasion.
I'd feel the need to protect my trees with tree wrap.
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That was kinda the point. I'd make damn sure I didn't have anything they could charge me with and play stupid when they arrived. Gee willikers, I ain't see no camera officer. That or place rotating pictures of Bea Arthur in front of it.
smokey-seven
NES Member
Yes it does. Regs are constantly added. Don't forget you need a salt water fishing license now.
