Preban SBR

SPO38

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If I make an SBR on a preban lower, does the manufacture of the SBR in accordance with the Form 1 nullify the rifle's preban status since Im technically creating a new firearm?
 
You are "making" a firearm. You are not manufacturing it. The date of original manufacture is what matters. Clear as mud huh? Note that the ATF Form 1 asks for the "orignial manufacturer" of the firearm.

Don
 
This is NOT what LEOs are being taught by their guru. Whether you win or lose in court, the legal bills are all yours if you get into that situation.

not that it matters to me--but source? this is the first time i've heard this one.

without re-writing the legal definition of what constitutes a rifle in MA i don't see how they could convict anyone on an AWB violation with a title II firearm.

i did say convict, and not charge... but neither has happened thus far.
 
This needs some splainin'... you have my attention.

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section121

''Firearm'', a pistol, revolver or other weapon of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which a shot or bullet can be discharged and of which the length of the barrel or barrels is less than 16 inches or 18 inches in the case of a shotgun as originally manufactured; provided, however, that the term firearm shall not include any weapon that is: (i) constructed in a shape that does not resemble a handgun, short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun including, but not limited to, covert weapons that resemble key-chains, pens, cigarette-lighters or cigarette-packages; or (ii) not detectable as a weapon or potential weapon by x-ray machines commonly used at airports or walk- through metal detectors.

So basically, a rifle with a bbl length of less than 16" is actually a "firearm" and not a rifle per MA law. Others can provide detail and subtlety, but this is the basic gist.
 
https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section121

''Firearm'', a pistol, revolver or other weapon of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which a shot or bullet can be discharged and of which the length of the barrel or barrels is less than 16 inches or 18 inches in the case of a shotgun as originally manufactured; provided, however, that the term firearm shall not include any weapon that is: (i) constructed in a shape that does not resemble a handgun, short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun including, but not limited to, covert weapons that resemble key-chains, pens, cigarette-lighters or cigarette-packages; or (ii) not detectable as a weapon or potential weapon by x-ray machines commonly used at airports or walk- through metal detectors.

So basically, a rifle with a bbl length of less than 16" is actually a "firearm" and not a rifle per MA law. Others can provide detail and subtlety, but this is the basic gist.

Not really. Finish reading your quote.

Specifically the part I underlined.

It specifically says an SBR is not a firearm.

"however, that the term firearm shall not include any weapon that is...short-barreled rifle"

So yes. An SBR must abide by the AWB.


ETA: Also the MA AWB is an exact copy of the fed AWB, and uses the Fed definition of rifle, which includes SBR because it is "designed or re-designed to be fired from the shoulder" During the fed AWB an SBR had to abide by the AWB. MA has different definitions based on different sections of code. The AWB code mirrors the fed AWB code and that code defined rifle different than the other MA code.
 
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Not really. Finish reading your quote.

Specifically the part I underlined.

It specifically says an SBR is not a firearm.

"however, that the term firearm shall not include any weapon that is...short-barreled rifle"

So yes. An SBR must abide by the AWB.


ETA: Also the MA AWB is an exact copy of the fed AWB, and uses the Fed definition of rifle, which includes SBR because it is "designed or re-designed to be fired from the shoulder" During the fed AWB an SBR had to abide by the AWB. MA has different definitions based on different sections of code. The AWB code mirrors the fed AWB code and that code defined rifle different than the other MA code.

Not, strictly speaking,an exact copy - the MA AWB only calls out 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(30). The federal definitions of rifle and SBR are in 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(7) and (8). Whether those definitions are implied by calling out only (30) isn't going to be decided without MA case law which to my knowledge hasn't happened yet.
 
Not, strictly speaking,an exact copy - the MA AWB only calls out 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(30). The federal definitions of rifle and SBR are in 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(7) and (8). Whether those definitions are implied by calling out only (30) isn't going to be decided without MA case law which to my knowledge hasn't happened yet.

While that is a good point, Considering that the crux of the argument is that an SBR is considered a firearm not a rifle because the barrel is less than 16 inches, yet the MA definition of firearm specifically and directly excludes an SBR in the firearm definition, then if an SBR is not a firearm, then it must be a rifle.

Personally having a threaded barrel and collapsable stock is not worth tens of thousands of dollars and loss of employment to find out.

When I finally move from this shit hole, I will change my barrels and stocks.
 
You are "making" a firearm. You are not manufacturing it. The date of original manufacture is what matters. Clear as mud huh? Note that the ATF Form 1 asks for the "orignial manufacturer" of the firearm.

Don

A pre-ban lower that is assembled at a later date into a complete gun has two dates of manufacture - one according to the federal definition; one according the Massachusetts definition.
 
not that it matters to me--but source? this is the first time i've heard this one.

without re-writing the legal definition of what constitutes a rifle in MA i don't see how they could convict anyone on an AWB violation with a title II firearm.

i did say convict, and not charge... but neither has happened thus far.

The guru Len refers to is, I believe, Glidden.
 
Not really. Finish reading your quote.

Specifically the part I underlined.

It specifically says an SBR is not a firearm.

"however, that the term firearm shall not include any weapon that is...short-barreled rifle"

So yes. An SBR must abide by the AWB.


ETA: Also the MA AWB is an exact copy of the fed AWB, and uses the Fed definition of rifle, which includes SBR because it is "designed or re-designed to be fired from the shoulder" During the fed AWB an SBR had to abide by the AWB. MA has different definitions based on different sections of code. The AWB code mirrors the fed AWB code and that code defined rifle different than the other MA code.


You need to complete reading the passage yourself. The text removes SBR's from both the definition of a rifle AND the definition of a firearm. That does not place it under the purview of the AWB. In fact, the SBR is not defined in MA under any of these guidelines: That is the grey area.

The MA AWB also does not exactly copy the fed awb especially wrt the definition of rifles and SBR's. While you may find it useful to reference the expired federal awb, it is not codified that way in MA MGL: "''Rifle'', a weapon having a rifled bore with a barrel length equal to or greater than 16 inches and capable of discharging a shot or bullet for each pull of the trigger."

The MA AWB does not address SBR's except to not include them in the definitions of firearms and rifles.
 
Mach - I wasn't trying to make any point. I was merely citing the MGL that people use to justify the position that a SBR can't be an AW.

I frankly have not spent much time parsing the law. I'm just providing the citation.
 
You need to complete reading the passage yourself. The text removes SBR's from both the definition of a rifle AND the definition of a firearm. That does not place it under the purview of the AWB. In fact, the SBR is not defined in MA under any of these guidelines: That is the grey area.

The MA AWB also does not exactly copy the fed awb especially wrt the definition of rifles and SBR's. While you may find it useful to reference the expired federal awb, it is not codified that way in MA MGL: "''Rifle'', a weapon having a rifled bore with a barrel length equal to or greater than 16 inches and capable of discharging a shot or bullet for each pull of the trigger."

The MA AWB does not address SBR's except to not include them in the definitions of firearms and rifles.

I wish we could be sure that an MA judge would follow the plain letter of the law. However, MA judges have been known to interpret laws to fit their views - see for example how ban on carry of guns became a ban on possession of guns to an MA judge in that recent case with the guy who had his car searched.
 
I wish we could be sure that an MA judge would follow the plain letter of the law. However, MA judges have been known to interpret laws to fit their views - see for example how ban on carry of guns became a ban on possession of guns to an MA judge in that recent case with the guy who had his car searched.


Agreed: Grey areas are always about risk tolerance and this is no exception.
 
You need to complete reading the passage yourself. The text removes SBR's from both the definition of a rifle AND the definition of a firearm. That does not place it under the purview of the AWB. In fact, the SBR is not defined in MA under any of these guidelines: That is the grey area.

The MA AWB also does not exactly copy the fed awb especially wrt the definition of rifles and SBR's. While you may find it useful to reference the expired federal awb, it is not codified that way in MA MGL: "''Rifle'', a weapon having a rifled bore with a barrel length equal to or greater than 16 inches and capable of discharging a shot or bullet for each pull of the trigger."

The MA AWB does not address SBR's except to not include them in the definitions of firearms and rifles.

When different sections of MGL on guns have different definitions, it is very difficult to figure out what is legal and what is illegal and what definition applies to what. IIRC that rifle definition is not is the same code of law that the AWB is.

So lets take a look at the definition of AW in MGL 121:

Section 121. As used in sections 122 to 131Q, inclusive, the following words shall, unless the context clearly requires otherwise, have the following meanings:

''Assault weapon'', shall have the same meaning as a semiautomatic assault weapon as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(30) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994, and shall include, but not be limited to, any of the weapons, or copies or duplicates of the weapons, of any caliber, known as:............

provided, however, that the term assault weapon shall not include: (i) any of the weapons, or replicas or duplicates of such weapons, specified in appendix A to 18 U.S.C. section 922 as appearing in such appendix on September 13, 1994, as such weapons were manufactured on October 1, 1993; (ii) any weapon that is operated by manual bolt, pump, lever or slide action; (iii) any weapon that has been rendered permanently inoperable or otherwise rendered permanently unable to be designated a semiautomatic assault weapon; (iv) any weapon that was manufactured prior to the year 1899; (v) any weapon that is an antique or relic, theatrical prop or other weapon that is not capable of firing a projectile and which is not intended for use as a functional weapon and cannot be readily modified through a combination of available parts into an operable assault weapon; (vi) any semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than five rounds of ammunition; or (vii) any semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than five rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine.


One could argue since it specifically states AW will have the same definition as the federal definition of AW, and during the Fed AWB SBRs met that definition with evil features and SBRs are not specifically exempted by the sentences that follow exempting certain types of firearms, that any opinion that it is a gray area is wishful thinking.

I would like to see some MA law language that refutes:

''Assault weapon'', shall have the same meaning as a semiautomatic assault weapon as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(30) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994


because it seems like a slam dunk to me.
 
Maybe I'm reading this the wrong way but doesn't constructed in a shape that does not resemble a handgun, short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun mean not resemble a handgun, not resemble a SBR, or not resemble a SBS. If that's the case a SBR is a firearm.
 
There is a definition section of the MGL and that is where rifle, aw, & firearm are defined.

Wrt the fed AWB: I still don't see SBR defined there and I am struggling to get actual text of the fed AWB that calls out SBR's. Perhaps you have it and would like to share?
 
Maybe I'm reading this the wrong way but doesn't constructed in a shape that does not resemble a handgun, short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun mean not resemble a handgun, not resemble a SBR, or not resemble a SBS. If that's the case a SBR is a firearm.

That's how I read it as well....does not resemble an SBR. That "not" extends to all three types of firearms.
 
during the fed awb colt could not make a sbr with more than two of the features. Ma did not sunset the awb. a six year old could concict you in 5 minutes in court by having you read your form 1. type of firearm to be made " short barrel rifle" then show the jury your sbr. do you think they will think it is not a rifle? if you say it's a firearm which you claim is not a rifle. than it must be a pistol and still subject to the awb. in section 121 by defineing what is not a firearm, it states that it must look like pistol,short barrel rifle or short barrel shotgun. there in writing is the Ma definition of a sbr! and if you do not believe this please become the test case.
 
Based on section 121, a firearm is:

"Firearm'', a pistol, revolver or other weapon of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which a shot or bullet can be discharged and of which the length of the barrel or barrels is less than 16 inches or 18 inches in the case of a shotgun as originally manufactured;...not resemble...

Let's pretend to agree from the previous discussion that a SBR is a firearm.
We know it's not a revolver. If it was a pistol then having a stock on it no longer makes it a pistol. Massachusetts doesn't have definitions for revolver or pistol but the ATF does. Now if a SBR wasn't either a revolver or pistol then it is "other weapon of any description." Now what the hell is a "other weapon of any description?" If I was a betting man, it is a weapon that is not a pistol or revolver but has a barrel(s) length of less than 16"/18" that can fire a bullet. Will that hold in court? Don't know but either way you will get screwed. Win the court case and lose lots of money but you took it for the team and answered the million dollar question!


 
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