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Prefered AR Manufacturer? Cheaper to Bling
- Thread starter Rockrivr1
- Start date
I forgot about Windham in my post, but that should be a good option for him.
If he does go with that and is thinking about using the AR as a home defense gun, Impact Weapons has a great light mount for traditional handguards. They have a Surefire scout variant too:
TMC 1" LIGHT MOUNT-N-SLOT
www.impactweaponscomponents.com
I would hope that DD would have confirmed the headspace in the complete upper before shipping it out. Whereas if you add the BCG in after, it will almost certainly have the correct headspace but there’s a very slim chance it doesn’t. Basically just an extra step in QC.
Build a PCC or buy a PCC.
There are some sweet builds with awesome triggers.
F*ck getting a complete lower. It is like getting a complete computer. Most of the time you have to compromise or pay more for everything. Go for a budget lower, then spend the money on a quality trigger.
Get a separate upper to fit the needs.
I have been shooting some NES member's PCC lately, I am surprised they will cycle anything, even powder loads below the lower limit.
The cool thing about the PCC is he can use it for several competitions that include moving around or speed shooting (such as USPSA and SC).
An AR for plinking ONLY get boring VERY FAST and eventually gets thrown in the safe and never touched because ammo prices and shooting at 100-200 yards with no purpose gets boring. Even cheap ammo is very accurate at those ranges (not F class accurate).
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Here's my take on it:
1) AR's are dime a dozen. I suspect, 99% of AR's never had more than 1000 rounds through them. Unless your navy friend is planning to compete, hunt or train a lot, getting the most reliable(more on that later) or more fancy/expensive is just money wasted. Omnidex controls, fancy charge handles, pretty handguards: all these items add to the price but don't make an already great rifle any better.
2) AR was designed to be cheap to make and it is. Any brand that tries to sell you a "fancy" AR is selling you the brand, not the rifle. It's like Toyota Highlander and Lexus RX: The same car but one has more "bling" and the name(Lexus). Both will get you places for many years to come. You can even get down the "cheap" brand path and get a KIA and that car will work just fine. As with cars, there are certain parts you don't want to cheap out on. For ARs, barrel and BCG are the only two parts where quality matters, and the rest is just fluff.
3) What makes ARs finicky is the gas system. There are three sizes: Rifle, Mid, and Carbine. Carbine is the most unreliable of the three and I wouldn't bother with it if you want a simple rifle that shoots any ammo. The most reliable is Rifle followed closely by Mid. A cheap $400 Bear Creek AR with Rifle gas system will eat any ammo whereas a $3000 LaRue with Carbine gas system will be picky about ammo. Also, AR was designed for a 20" barrel. The close you are to that, the better you are. 18" w/Rifle gas system, or 16" with Mid-length gas system are probably your best bets.
4) Money you waste on brand recognition is the money you won't have for ammo and training.
My suggestion: get the cheapest 18" AR with as close to the original design and shoot the snot out of it until it's broken-in and reliable AF.
1) AR's are dime a dozen. I suspect, 99% of AR's never had more than 1000 rounds through them. Unless your navy friend is planning to compete, hunt or train a lot, getting the most reliable(more on that later) or more fancy/expensive is just money wasted. Omnidex controls, fancy charge handles, pretty handguards: all these items add to the price but don't make an already great rifle any better.
2) AR was designed to be cheap to make and it is. Any brand that tries to sell you a "fancy" AR is selling you the brand, not the rifle. It's like Toyota Highlander and Lexus RX: The same car but one has more "bling" and the name(Lexus). Both will get you places for many years to come. You can even get down the "cheap" brand path and get a KIA and that car will work just fine. As with cars, there are certain parts you don't want to cheap out on. For ARs, barrel and BCG are the only two parts where quality matters, and the rest is just fluff.
3) What makes ARs finicky is the gas system. There are three sizes: Rifle, Mid, and Carbine. Carbine is the most unreliable of the three and I wouldn't bother with it if you want a simple rifle that shoots any ammo. The most reliable is Rifle followed closely by Mid. A cheap $400 Bear Creek AR with Rifle gas system will eat any ammo whereas a $3000 LaRue with Carbine gas system will be picky about ammo. Also, AR was designed for a 20" barrel. The close you are to that, the better you are. 18" w/Rifle gas system, or 16" with Mid-length gas system are probably your best bets.
4) Money you waste on brand recognition is the money you won't have for ammo and training.
My suggestion: get the cheapest 18" AR with as close to the original design and shoot the snot out of it until it's broken-in and reliable AF.
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There is absolutely zero useful info here.
I agree.
I always try to tell people the mistakes I have made, why they were mistakes and what I learned, with the hope they will be smart enough and won't make the same mistake.
It is amazing how many refuse to listen. With guns, at work and in life. Oh well.
What bothers me the most is when people build sh*t, they know it is sh*t yet they tell others to build the same.
It’s useful to give readers a heads up and to take your post with a grain of salt.
I didn’t have time to elaborate before. But let me help you out. Comments in-line.
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A lot of your comments are a result of experience, no doubt. I could relate to all of the things you mentioned. Where I differ is the attitude towards the selection process. Most will take a consumerist approach to gun buying: pay as much as possible because that makes things "better". This consumerist attitude has destroyed AR's affordability!
There is such a thing as "good enough". If you have $2-3000 to spend on an AR, it doesn't mean you should be buying a DD AR when a basic $6-800 AR will do the job. Those that spend thousands on ARs like to justify them as "better quality" or "learned my mistake". The fact is, ALL rifles fail. A properly maintained $500 AR will work as well as $3000 ones.
On the treatise of how many things can fail in AR: you imply that cheap ARs are the only ones that break. that's not correct or genuine. What's more, I doubt you've built a cheap rifle recently. I have and the quality of parts you get today is orders of magnitude better than the crap "low cost" parts one bought 5-6 years ago. 5 years ago, getting a low-cost part was a crapshoot. Not today!
The low-cost AR component market has changed significantly to the point where lessons of the old are no longer applicable. In the meantime, I have DD that needs fixing... something about the stripped-out trigger pin retaining screw...
Dont over complicate it. A first AR should be 5.56. That's the native and generally correct caliber for someone who just wants an AR. Really a 16 inch barrel is all you need in that case and again is standard civilian/commercial stuff any AR owner should have one of.
Do not buy economy. Do not buy boutique or "high end". Stag, SW come to mind as good off the shelf complete carbine rifles, Aero is a good start for mix/match custom stuff (I love almost everything from them other than their barrels are hit or miss IMO, specifically I pick M4E1 recievers).
If your buddy is an iron sight lover, that's easy. A flat top w/ fsb out of the box with a carry handle sight is hard to beat and are widely available.
If your buddy likes optics then skip the step, start with a free float rail. I'd push them toward a complete M4E1 lower, complete M4E1 upper of their liking, Aero BCG and paddle charging handle, have a gunsmith do a headspace check, put an optic on there and go shoot...
I don't love Aero barrels but it's only an accuracy thing really, they are your standard commercial qpq stuff. I chose something else when I assemble one, but it's something that makes no difference unless you are off a rest and there is no conceivable home defense situation where a semi auto needs a chrome or chf barrel (point being, don't over complicate).
Do not buy economy. Do not buy boutique or "high end". Stag, SW come to mind as good off the shelf complete carbine rifles, Aero is a good start for mix/match custom stuff (I love almost everything from them other than their barrels are hit or miss IMO, specifically I pick M4E1 recievers).
If your buddy is an iron sight lover, that's easy. A flat top w/ fsb out of the box with a carry handle sight is hard to beat and are widely available.
If your buddy likes optics then skip the step, start with a free float rail. I'd push them toward a complete M4E1 lower, complete M4E1 upper of their liking, Aero BCG and paddle charging handle, have a gunsmith do a headspace check, put an optic on there and go shoot...
I don't love Aero barrels but it's only an accuracy thing really, they are your standard commercial qpq stuff. I chose something else when I assemble one, but it's something that makes no difference unless you are off a rest and there is no conceivable home defense situation where a semi auto needs a chrome or chf barrel (point being, don't over complicate).
all of this babbly-boo and your squeeze buys a wyndham. mil spec govt profile barrel and standard exciting “features”. the value of “advice” sought from this forum is worth the price paid. not an ounce of information about your “navy friend’s” applications with said rifle. there is no way anyone can provide meaningful guidance and even if provided it would be ignored.
Apparently I can't do any non-standard text at the moment. So, here's a reply to Sammy without quotes:
You have a point about consumerism, and I agree that there is a point where rifles are “good enough” from a reliability standpoint. Hence why I recommended just getting a Colt, FN, or BCM, and agreed with the post that Windham was a good option. Windham is far from a gucci brand, but they have a pretty good track record.
But a $600-$800 AR at the moment will not necessarily be “just as good”. The PSAs, Andersons, M&Ps (except the 15-22 which is awesome) etc will experience a higher rate of failure. People may get by without having any problems with the cheap ARs. Those several hundred rounds some use zeroing and shooting at paper at 25 yards probably won’t cause a failure. And if the gun will purely be a range run, then it may be worth the risk. But if the gun will be used for home defense(as the OP said), then it’s just not worth the risk.
All rifles can fail, yes. And proper maintenance with correct intervals for wear items is important. But no, a $500 AR probably won’t work as well as a $3k one. Precision, wear item part life, and mean failure rate are likely going to be worse and sometimes much worse in the $500 AR. Now, want to compare a $1.2k one vs a $3k one and the difference will be slim to none for most things. There may be incremental improvements or non-reliability feature changes, and that’s it.
A big aspect of failure rates in cheaper ARs is quality control, the cheap manufacturers may get parts that are mostly good. But they won’t have the same amount of QC as more expensive ARs and bad parts will get through more often.
I did not imply that only cheap guns break. I said they were the ones with the highest number of malfunctions. Not that they were the only ones that broke. They just break at a higher rate. As far as quality of parts, the quality of cheap parts now is VASTLY better than it was before the federal assault weapon ban. Once the ban sunset, quality across the board started to increase. But I actually think the quality has dipped ever since 2020. Increased demand, supply chain issues, staffing issues.. results in more defects and less QC. And it is more evident with the cheaper brands that have greater volume and less margin to afford better and more frequent QC.
Regarding your Daniel Defense, what trigger pin retaining screw? Daniel Defense triggers use standard trigger pins retained by spring pressure in grooves. They do not use captive pins with retaining screws. What trigger are you using?
You have a point about consumerism, and I agree that there is a point where rifles are “good enough” from a reliability standpoint. Hence why I recommended just getting a Colt, FN, or BCM, and agreed with the post that Windham was a good option. Windham is far from a gucci brand, but they have a pretty good track record.
But a $600-$800 AR at the moment will not necessarily be “just as good”. The PSAs, Andersons, M&Ps (except the 15-22 which is awesome) etc will experience a higher rate of failure. People may get by without having any problems with the cheap ARs. Those several hundred rounds some use zeroing and shooting at paper at 25 yards probably won’t cause a failure. And if the gun will purely be a range run, then it may be worth the risk. But if the gun will be used for home defense(as the OP said), then it’s just not worth the risk.
All rifles can fail, yes. And proper maintenance with correct intervals for wear items is important. But no, a $500 AR probably won’t work as well as a $3k one. Precision, wear item part life, and mean failure rate are likely going to be worse and sometimes much worse in the $500 AR. Now, want to compare a $1.2k one vs a $3k one and the difference will be slim to none for most things. There may be incremental improvements or non-reliability feature changes, and that’s it.
A big aspect of failure rates in cheaper ARs is quality control, the cheap manufacturers may get parts that are mostly good. But they won’t have the same amount of QC as more expensive ARs and bad parts will get through more often.
I did not imply that only cheap guns break. I said they were the ones with the highest number of malfunctions. Not that they were the only ones that broke. They just break at a higher rate. As far as quality of parts, the quality of cheap parts now is VASTLY better than it was before the federal assault weapon ban. Once the ban sunset, quality across the board started to increase. But I actually think the quality has dipped ever since 2020. Increased demand, supply chain issues, staffing issues.. results in more defects and less QC. And it is more evident with the cheaper brands that have greater volume and less margin to afford better and more frequent QC.
Regarding your Daniel Defense, what trigger pin retaining screw? Daniel Defense triggers use standard trigger pins retained by spring pressure in grooves. They do not use captive pins with retaining screws. What trigger are you using?
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Rockrivr1
NES Member
Someone piss in your cereal this morning or are you usually this much of a dick. Guess you didn't read much of the past page. Couple people recommended the Windham and I looked at the recommendations from everyone. I was given a budget from my friend overnight and with that price the Windham makes sense.
It always amazes me when people shite up a thread because they are miserable "F"s and contribute nothing. How about put me on your ignore list and I'll do the same for you. I wouldn't have asked if I didn't want people's thoughts. It's basically what a forum is for. To bad you don't realize that.
Caveman
NES Member
I would agree that a Windham is a good fit for this scenario. I have a couple OG Bushmasters and I really like them. I will forever remember my father and I driving up to their original factory and getting a tour of the facility. Left there with one of their show/demo 24” V-match rifles that they had put together. Picked up a CAR15 style a couple years later.
Dang that sucks to hear. I ordered one Dec of last year. I really hope they ship it out before some people do something.
Dang that sucks to hear. I ordered one Dec of last year. I really hope they ship it out before some people do something.
Hopefully you get yours sooner. My brother ordered one in the spring last year and still doesn’t have it. Supposedly it has moved from parts sourcing to being assembled. But that was weeks ago.
Caveman
NES Member
Good info thanks. i didn’t expect it before Oct but dang. If I have to wait 15+ plus the 4-5 months for the stamp. that’s going to hurt.
I did 5 years of extensive research and got lots of trigger time at NES shoots before I built my fist AR.
Hundreds of hours watching videos, reading books and asking questions on forums like M4Carbine.net.
No regrets with Noveske.
If I were a noob now and wanted to get up and running in 12 months with training- I’d buy a Colt and be done with it.
If your friend want to make a 10 year project- get Green Eyes Black Rifle by Kyle Lamb. Then read the forums and watch the videos on YouTube for a few years.
Haste makes waste.
Get a Colt, buy some ammo and take classes.
Then when he knows what he really likes he could get a Tier 1.
I learned on a 10/22 at Appleseed to shoot a rifle.
A job ill done must be twice done.
Baby steps.
If he goes Tier 1 without knowing anything he’ll regret it.
Appleseed will teach you the basics.
No need to waste thousands in ammo without basic skills.
Hundreds of hours watching videos, reading books and asking questions on forums like M4Carbine.net.
No regrets with Noveske.
If I were a noob now and wanted to get up and running in 12 months with training- I’d buy a Colt and be done with it.
If your friend want to make a 10 year project- get Green Eyes Black Rifle by Kyle Lamb. Then read the forums and watch the videos on YouTube for a few years.
Haste makes waste.
Get a Colt, buy some ammo and take classes.
Then when he knows what he really likes he could get a Tier 1.
I learned on a 10/22 at Appleseed to shoot a rifle.
A job ill done must be twice done.
Baby steps.
If he goes Tier 1 without knowing anything he’ll regret it.
Appleseed will teach you the basics.
No need to waste thousands in ammo without basic skills.
Tartakovsky
NES Member
$1k budget duty - Aero, BCM, Colt, FN, Ruger, Sig, S&W
$1500 - $2k mid tier duty - Caracal, Daniel Defense, Geissele, Larue, POF-USA, PWS
$2k-$3500 high tier duty - HK, JP, KAC, LMT, LWRC, Noveske, Wilson Combat
$1500 - $2k mid tier duty - Caracal, Daniel Defense, Geissele, Larue, POF-USA, PWS
$2k-$3500 high tier duty - HK, JP, KAC, LMT, LWRC, Noveske, Wilson Combat
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I wish I had been on NES before my first rifle. I didn't know any better and my friend convinced me the only thing I could buy was an MCX.
Aero has been good, easy to find parts in MA even though they don't ship here and I like the larue kits too
Aero has been good, easy to find parts in MA even though they don't ship here and I like the larue kits too
Daniel Devense, Bravo and LMT are my favs.
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I don't think there is any data to support the claim that more expensive ARs fail less. And since there is NO data to support either claim, I am going to use reason: The more expensive ARs are far more likely to become safe queens than the inexpensive "bang about" ones and therefore will get far less usage, in general. Here's a typical thought process: "I want to go to the range for some fun and practice. I don't want to spend a fortune on ammo so I would rather use cheap steel crap. I don't want to ruin my Gucci AR with these steel-cased abominations. Let's take the cheap one. If it fails, I can buy another one of those!" When there are two ARs, Gucci and El'Cheapo, the less expensive one is far more likely to get used and less-likely to get appropriate level of maintenance.
Overall, you make some good arguments. I went back to my original post and re-read it. Except for the post having a "pissy" tone, everything I've listed still stands and you have pretty much the same attitude, just in a less abrupt manner.
The only point I think I failed to get across is the "good enough" approach when it comes to gas systems. If one were to start with inexpensive AR, it is more likely to have a gas system that hasn't been sorted out. , When it comes to cheap barrels, the most common issue I see on AR15.com forums is the diameter of the barrel gas port. The hole is usually undersized or has burrs that lower the amount of gas going back. By far, the most common problem! at it is most prevalent in Carbine length systems the time for pressure build-up is limited by the barrel length. in a Carbine, gas has to do a lot with very limited dwell time. The issue with the gas system appears a lot less with longer barrels and gas systems. This is why I believe that if one were to go with "good enough", low-cost AR as a starting point, avoiding a Carbine-length gas system is a good idea.
Here's a review of a Bear Creek upper($280?). I agree with the reviewer 100: most will dog on Bear Creek without having used it or gave it an honest try.
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