Prefered AR Manufacturer? Cheaper to Bling

[40 Creedmoor fan]

Can’t say I agree with that thought process. But also, “changing things out” doesn’t always mean more reliability, either in a higher or lower end AR.

There is absolutely NOTHING similar in the levels of upgrading one does on average to a cheap gun vs. Gucci gun. The entire reason to spend money on a Gucci gun is that all the fancy parts are already selected, installed, and verified to work well together.
Instead of learning the proper way to assemble/improve an AR and through that, become extremely familiar with the platform, folks take the lazy way out by throwing money at Gucci makers. I have no problem with the makers: they created a business base on the knowledge they've accumulated. At the same time, I don't see why an average individual cannot learn to build an AR.
And no, Gucci guns are not upgradable to the same degree as cheap guns. One factor mentioned in this thread is "mismatched parts". You pay a fortune for a Daniel Defense pew-pew and if you upgrade components to some other brand, the value of that gun would most likely drop. Why would someone make their Gucci gun into a Cheap gun? It doesn't make sense!

 

[Spartan65]

It ain’t the tool, it’s the user.

Anyone who says a built rifle can’t outperform a high end factory build does not know much if anything about the platform. When they have a malfunction in a SHTF situation that rifle will end up in the hands of your enemies.

 

[Grendizer138]

Best I can tell it seems to be a mix of:
- using bottom of the barrel parts
- not torquing/staking things down properly
- not thoroughly testing the gas system

With uppers like BCM, they use something like red loctite on the gas block set screws. As a home builder, how many people do that? Very few because you might plan to change it out later. But BCM just wants the best reliability so they do it. (Also for anybody reading, just increasing the torque on those set screws can lead to precision degradation).

And manufacturers spend (the good ones) a decent amount of effort testing out the gas system of a particular model or line before it goes out the door. Home builders can do this too, but not all spend the time and effort.

The short answer is everyone thinks they’re a gunsmith.

 

[DarkJoker33]

I don't think there is any data to support the claim that more expensive ARs fail less. And since there is NO data to support either claim.

This just stands to be wrong in 1 major way. Any special forces unit around the world generally has the gucciest of gucci rifles.
Which is why they have the biggest price tags in the commercial market. Those guns are put through a sh!tstorm of abuse and they keep on trucking just fine.
Reasons on why guns like the HK mr556 and mr762 are world renown for being absolute tanks under the worst conditions.

Talk to instructors at carbine courses.

I'm a newbie and I can even deciper this one to being accurate. Their sample size of rifles brought through their courses is massive.
All makes,models,builds. They see what runs,what fails and when.
Favoritism all put aside, this is probabbly the best area for research and information

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

I look for a rugged handguard mounting system, well thought out design of the handguard, robust indexing features for the handguard to upper, well fit part for the upper/lower, good ergonomics.
I like geissele, BCM, daniel defense, and the aero precision enhanced mounts.

I've used AT3 Spear handguard. It's good, rugged and if you wait for a sale, can be had for $75. My favorite handguard by far is Strike Industries GRIDLOCK series. Unfortunately, they are expensive as all get out(~$180). In the last two years, I was able to buy it for $110 on sale just once. If I knew they wouldn't discount it, I would have bought more than one!

On the carrier I like integral gas keys so having parts come loose isn't a thing.

How often has this happened? I have heard about it happening in the past but have never experienced it or seen anyone have this problem.

 

[PappyM3]

No doubt. But you’re the one that suggested firearms instructors recommend high end rifles because they are less prone to failure - that hasn’t been my experience. Ever.

I don’t think there’s much, if any, difference in reliability. I have a BCM, but I’ve seen all manner of fancy guns fail in classes - especially home builds. But that’s just my anecdotal experience and I’m sure it won’t sway you, and I don’t care.

I didn’t say instructors recommend high end guns. Just that I’ve heard various instructors mention higher failure rates of home builds like we’ve mentioned, and also the “cheapo” ARs like the low end PSAs Anderson, and M&P15 Sport.

By the way, your BCM is a “fancy gun” in this discussion. And saying a fancy home build failed means nothing. It’s still in the home build category and the ability of the builder is completely separated from the component quality.

 

[PappyM3]

How often has this happened? I have heard about it happening in the past but have never experienced it or seen anyone have this problem.

It’s never happened to me. But I’ve seen it happen to several people at competitions.

Sometimes it is immediately evident, but sometimes it is very slight and hard to tell visually. So when you start getting short strokes or failures to extract, some may not know what the problem is at first.

I check mine, but I realize that even with checks it could still bite me down the line too. Which is why I keep an entire spare BCG in my range bag/assault pack and not just a spare bolt.

 

[Grendizer138]

I didn’t say instructors recommend high end guns. Just that I’ve heard various instructors mention higher failure rates of home builds like we’ve mentioned, and also the “cheapo” ARs like the low end PSAs Anderson, and M&P15 Sport.

By the way, your BCM is a “fancy gun” in this discussion. And saying a fancy home build failed means nothing. It’s still in the home build category and the ability of the builder is completely separated from the component quality.

I agree with all this.


View: https://youtu.be/2atkj_KWLl0

 

[groundscrapers]

It would be but there is NO incentive to do so. What if a $1000 homebuilt AR outperforms a $3000 AR? Can you imagine how many internet pundits' heads would explode!?

Personally, I don't want to own an AR I didn't build. I can set one up away better than the majority of mass-produced money pits. I'm also a Yankee: I cannot bring myself to waste money on an AR! A truly American rifle should not cost more than your first car!

While its nice to build a gun you are constrained to companies working with in the milspec tolerances to make parts work together. When you start to get into higher end ar's where they can build in fit tolerances to their parts you will end up with a better rifle. If you assemble parts, be it you or some of the smaller ar companies you will never own the TDP and have to work with what you get... sometimes its ok, othertimes its very bad.

As an engineer of these guns I prefer to groom the fit of the entire assembly in such a way that I end up with the most robust assembly possible.

 

[groundscrapers]

I've used AT3 Spear handguard. It's good, rugged and if you wait for a sale, can be had for $75. My favorite handguard by far is Strike Industries GRIDLOCK series. Unfortunately, they are expensive as all get out(~$180). In the last two years, I was able to buy it for $110 on sale just once. If I knew they wouldn't discount it, I would have bought more than one!

How often has this happened? I have heard about it happening in the past but have never experienced it or seen anyone have this problem.

The mounting system of the AT3 is probably one I would avoid since I prefer not to use aluminum to clamp onto the steel barrel nuts. The gridlock at least has a cam but in my opinion there is really no need for a qd style handguard. Fortis did this as well and in both cases its adding more potential failure points for no gain other than a quick removal of a handguard... for what purpose, who knows. Steel on steel with a component of the rail extrusion for alignment at a minimum.
** on the second question, I have seen poorly staked keys come loose and i've seen screws shear off. In both instances you can remove that failure point by making the gas key integral to the carrier.

 

[Bladerunner]

2A Armament.

 

[PappyM3]

The mounting system of the AT3 is probably one I would avoid since I prefer not to use aluminum to clamp onto the steel barrel nuts.

Clamping aluminum onto steel barrel nuts is a pretty well vetted solution. BCM, Geissele, Centurion, MidWest Industries, Forward Controls Design, Rip Cord, and many more.

 

[groundscrapers]

Clamping aluminum onto steel barrel nuts is a pretty well vetted solution. BCM, Geissele, Centurion, MidWest Industries, Forward Controls Design, Rip Cord, and many more.

This may illustrate my point better. The AT3 just threads across into aluminum threads and relies on that compression to hold the handguard. The BCM below uses steel inserts that span the handguard at the top and lock onto the handguard.
AT3 spear

BCM

 

[Noreaster]

I haven't looked at this thread in a while. This shure turned into a shit-show.

 

[Mesatchornug]

Obviously there are risks when screwing into aluminum - are you equally worried by the LaRue design? Generally, I feel like I'm more worried looking at a lot of the little alignment features than I am the clamping ones.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

Im a big fan of the Colt 6920 SOCOM.

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$1500 probably puts it in the bling category, but that Knights Armament RAS is almost impossible to find otherwise. The 14.5 P/W barrel is a nice touch also, as well as the side sling swivel and the Matech sight, all battle proven quality kit.
Sucks they are laser engraving them now instead of rollmarking them, but at least they dont grind off the selector stops anymore.

 

[murf4321]