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Question Regarding Gun Related Deaths in the UK vs. US

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TaxMan

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Homicide gun-related homicides in the US are listed as 3.6 per 100,000 population

in the UK .04 per 100,000 population...

The rate in the US is 90x higher... The obvious difference being the banning of most guns in the UK...


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When confronted with this fact, what is the "appropriate" defense?

I've tried researching violent crime rates in the UK vs. US and have seen numbers that range from UK has 5x the amount of violent crime, all the way down to equal to the US... apparently "violent crime" is categorized differently in each country making this calculation "impossible"

Someone help me out (with some "facts")
 
The correct method would be to measure against the lawful gun owning population versus total population to correct for gun ownership rates. Don't hold your breath, you're not going to see an unbiased number
 
TaxMan said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Homicide gun-related homicides in the US are listed as 3.6 per 100,000 population

in the UK .04 per 100,000 population...

The rate in the US is 90x higher... The obvious difference being the banning of most guns in the UK...


----------------------------

When confronted with this fact, what is the "appropriate" defense?

I've tried researching violent crime rates in the UK vs. US and have seen numbers that range from UK has 5x the amount of violent crime, all the way down to equal to the US... apparently "violent crime" is categorized differently in each country making this calculation "impossible"

Someone help me out (with some "facts")
Click to expand...

Hard to tell from the way you wrote your post if you're trying to troll this subject or not - but this guy went thru the crime statistics in the US - and also compares them to other countries ( I think Britain is the most prominent one) - and does a pretty good job of debunking that "murder rate is higher in the US because of guns" BS:

 
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Also the UK has always had less crime, the comparing of a county thats geography smaller and culturally differs from the US is not a fair way to gain data pro or against guns or anything else
 
Lukes83 said:
This!
Click to expand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Disregarding guns and looking at murder rates alone show 1.2UK vs. 4.7US

gearjunky13 said:
Also the UK has always had less crime, the comparing of a county thats geography smaller and culturally differs from the US is not a fair way to gain data pro or against guns or anything else
Click to expand...

Ya, logically I can see that comparing these two countries is like comparing apples and oranges, I just didnt know how to defend it against someone who throws these "facts" at you.

- - - Updated - - -

calsdad said:
Hard to tell from the way you wrote your post if you're trying to troll this subject or not - but this guy went thru the crime statistics in the US - and also compares them to other countries ( I think Britain is the most prominent one) - and does a pretty good job of debunking that "murder rate is higher in the US because of guns" BS:

Click to expand...


Can't check this out now, but I will once I'm home. Thanks
 
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I guess the only "fair" way to compare them would be to see if violent crime rate decreased after the banning of guns... I'll have to check that out later...
 
Most deaths occur in inner cities, typically those with populations of over 200,000. The number of cites that size in the US dwarfs that of the UK, and it the main reason for the imbalance.
 
TaxMan said:
I guess the only "fair" way to compare them would be to see if violent crime rate decreased after the banning of guns... I'll have to check that out later...
Click to expand...

Definitely read up for your own sake. The more knowledge you have the better you will be prepared to fend off moonbat arguments.

That being said, I already did some research on this. Spoiler alert!

Crime of all sorts in UK has been increasing steadily in parallel with the implementation of progressive social and economic policies, over roughly the last 100 years. The most peaceful period in British history was the Victorian period, when private gun ownership was at an all time high.

A must read academic work on the subject: http://www.amazon.com/Guns-Violence-The-English-Experience/dp/0674016084
 
Sibb said:
Most deaths occur in inner cities, typically those with populations of over 200,000. The number of cites that size in the US dwarfs that of the UK, and it the main reason for the imbalance.
Click to expand...

Again, the British homicide rate has been increasing for decades while ours has been decreasing. During the same period the U.S. has implemented concealed carry, in some form, in all 50 states. You may not be able to establish causality, but it certainly shows the old "more guns equals more crime" argument is a big fat lie.
 
It is pretty easy to find crime stats from the UK. If i remember right it is the "Home Office" that collects all of those stats. Last i checked they had a high violent crime rate plus their homicide rate has increased if i remember correctly. Criminals have moved from firears to knives for the most part.
 
drumenigma said:
It is pretty easy to find crime stats from the UK. If i remember right it is the "Home Office" that collects all of those stats. Last i checked they had a high violent crime rate plus their homicide rate has increased if i remember correctly. Criminals have moved from firears to knives for the most part.
Click to expand...

plus there was a push to make violent crime to be written up to make the stats look better
 
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants". That is a bit harder to do when the civilian populace has been disarmed. The price we pay to live in a free society is that bad things happen to good people. The UK's quest to create a perfect society simply causes deaths to be inflicted by other means.. hammers, bats, knives etc..
Gun ownership is the right of a free society and if the price means that some will die then so be it... The statistics would be the same with or without guns, people kill people all the time and wouldn't stop for lack of firearms.
 
willbdavis said:
Wrong! Go check the facts. The UK exceeds the U.S. in ALL forms of crime except homicide, and their rate is increasing while ours has been declining for 30 years.

A good source: http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/portal/page/portal/eurostat/home/
Click to expand...

Another thing to remember is that the UK has had fewer homicides per capita than the US for the last 100 years. For most of that time, it was possible to get handguns and semi-automatic rifles in the UK.

And in some parts of Europe it is possible to own handguns and semi-automatic rifles. Norway would be an example. Norway has far less violent crime than the UK.

In other words, the difference in homicide rates is not because of gun ownership.
 
nhams said:
Why is a gun related homicide worse than any other? Compare total homicide/crime rates. Gun bans create more defenseless citizens.
Click to expand...

THIS! It is simply a means to an agenda. They never talk about homicide rates or violent crime rates. The UK's violent crime rates have gone up significantly since they started gun banning.
 
It's like saying Norway has more skiing deaths than Bangladesh, therefore skis are deadly.
 
The homicide rate with firearms was low before the ban. I am pretty sure it went up after the ban.
A lot of good info can be found at Gun Facts And Gun Cite.
 
willbdavis said:
Wrong! Go check the facts. The UK exceeds the U.S. in ALL forms of crime except homicide, and their rate is increasing while ours has been declining for 30 years.

A good source: http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/portal/page/portal/eurostat/home/
Click to expand...

No i do understand that, but its all a numbers game and the UK has always spun its numbers and probably lied about them to always look lower, and has done so for some time, not that they were when broken down how those numbers were figured, but that was said before i posted

All i was saying its not right to compare a totaly diffrent contry like the UK thats in no way simmilar to our own and say this is the way to go
 
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It's been said several times before, but seriously, who cares if it's gun related violence or otherwise. violence is violence. obviously the UK is going to have lower GUN violence, but look at violence overall.

a better country to look at is Australia. Their home invasion rate increased by 60% IIRC after the banned firearms.
 
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Also keep in mind, a gun related homicide is still considered a homicide even when its justified. So you'd also have to research how many of the instances are justified homicides and the number drops even more.

Again, the number of gun related homicides are going to be higher here because we still allow the citizens to have them, for the most part. The amount of illegal firearm homicides might parallel one another percentage wise in the two countries. I don't know those stats. If you're willing to go through all the data to find out let us know.

But like others say, gun related crimes are treated like some type of criminal anomaly. If only guns didn't exist, these incidents would never happen!!~` Really? Why is it that when its a gun murder it becomes some newsworthy story? There's just this overwhelming disregard for logic from anti-gun people. They don't believe the crime would have happened if there wasn't a gun involved. "oh I only have my knife on me tonight...I guess I can't rob someone. If only I had a gun...*lament*"

The fact that they're anti-gun already puts you at a disadvantage in a discussion or argument about it. It means that they don't generally think about things very much beyond their initial reaction.
 
If you are killed by a gun you are dead period

You are less dead if you are killed in some other way, say by a knife or one of the 32,000 people killed a year by a car.

Remember over half of gun deaths are suicides, and someone who wants to commit suicide would never do it if they didn't have a gun. Right?
 
When someone brings this up my usual reply is "So?" The reason is that it's what I refer to as an "absolute" statement.

Consider if all alcohol were banned or all cars were suddenly removed from the roads. We would absolutely have a decline in deaths involving drunk driving. The problem is that it's a meaningless point. The real point is that the vast majority of people don't operate a motor vehicle while drunk, just as the vast majority of gun owners don't shoot themselves or others merely because a gun is present.

Usually the gun-grabber will counter by saying something like "But guns aren't needed," which will bring the conversation onto a different level. Alcohol is usually a good item to focus on. Really, it's hard to argue that alcohol is a true "need," but it's something that a majority of people seem to use on a regular basis despite the problems surrounding its use.

What it really boils down to is people wanting to control the behavior of others.
 
In Australia, after their gun ban, their homicide rates did not go down. Gun related homicides went down, however knife homicides then went up to pick up the slack. Take away a tool and the murderer will choose a different one.
 
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