Range Day: Mosin PU Sniper, '65 HXP, and Garand Thumb...

The problem is those archangel stocks are going to do little for a rifle if it’s not shooting well already. Same with a trigger job. It’s only going to get you so much.
It took me about a year of tinkering to get me 91/30 close to minute of black and that was with some cast loads.
I’m going to give it another run once some ..312” bullets come up for sale.
I know it’s posted somewhere the “accuracy target” for mosin nagants. It was not great I think it was before shots to hit a 12” plate at 100 meters?
12" at 100 was about the best I could manage with surplus. Brass cased stuff was marginally better.
 
Damn that's some good shooting with the Mosin! My 91/30 had horrible accuracy at 100 yards - even after I installed an archangel stock, timney trigger, etc. One of my biggest fails with a gun build. Sold that a couple years ago. Now I just have a M44.

Thanks. I've had a couple other Russian Mosins and never came close to this size of a group. Based on my other shots above and below paper- they were all in line so hopefully that indicates this rifle will be stable over enough rounds for a match. My Finn M39 is not too bad but I've never shot it with a scope. The other 91/30 I had was minute of bread box.

The barrel in this sniper is very good but not perfect- maybe a little 'haze' in the grooves, I would not quite call it frost yet. Obviously it's good enough & supposedly there was some hand picking originally for the Mosin sniper rifles. Regardless, it's a nice shooter after some quick and cheap tweaking. Good price from another NESer too, which helps to compensate for some of the bad purchases I have made over the years, LOL.

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This rifle for me was an experiment to see if the PU Sniper would cover my wants for a CMP Vintage Sniper rifle. Price was very decent, so I knew that if I could not get it to shoot accurately enough I could sell it for what I had paid. My self determined accuracy requirements were 2 MOA as an absolute maximum, with 1.5 MOA desired, and 1.0 MOA would be absolutely perfect. I figured I'd be lucky to get 1.5 MOA. I have heard of Russian Mosins doing better than 1.5 MOA but have never seen one do it. Finn M39's sure, but they are not on the list for CMP Vintage Sniper and CMP rules enforcement during inspection is unfortunately more than a little murky and arbitrary. For Mosin sniper rifles, CMP allows only the PU and PE scopes and other than the exact copy repro scope and mount, this one is all original. Not much room for inspection games with this one.

I was already planning to start a long term project to build a USMC 1941 sniper clone from a sporterized 1903, but the performance of this Mosin at ~1/4 the cost puts that project way back, if I even do that at all.
 
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Back to the Mosin Sniper...

Rainy day, so after completing some small projects in the house I headed to the reload dungeon. Only had a couple of the Hornady Custom cartridges left and decided to dissect one of them in hopes of duplicating the sub .7 MOA group. Bullet weighed out right at 150 grains, as advertised. Powder looks exactly like Varget and weighed out to 49.3 grains. I checked all the Hodgdon / IMR powders and 49.3 is either at the edge of or above max except for Varget. H4895 would be compressed at that load, and I can determine that the Hornady factory ammo is not compressed. I'm going with Varget.

Getting the 150 SST's was a PITA because f-ing Grafs apparently has an exclusive and won't ship to Mass. I have a decent supply now which should last 2 or 3 seasons. I'll load some up, shoot for groups, and if successful capture some chrony data so I can calculate my drops at 300 and 600.
 
Ammo manufacturers get their powders custom blended so you probably won't be able to match it up to off the shelf stuff by sight/weight
 
Ammo manufacturers get their powders custom blended so you probably won't be able to match it up to off the shelf stuff by sight/weight

Yeah, I realize matching up by sight/weight isn't realistic. That said, of the various powders I have on hand, Varget at the same weight makes a nice mid to slightly hotter than mid load at the same weight. I don't like pushing too hot but need decent velocity for distance. My load should generate ~2890 fps. Min load is still over 2700 fps.

I'm a fan of Varget for 6.5 CM through .30-06 as well as 54R and have used it for similar loads with good result and no over-pressure signs. The chronograph and group size will be the proof. If accuracy isn't quite where I want it, I'll adjust the Varget before trying a different powder.

Not necessarily this one, but I bet a lot of the commercial ammo is either using some version of powder that can be bought for reloading or something sold for loading military ammo. Like any other business, I doubt they want to be making too many 'specials'. More accurately, much of what we can buy is probably repackaged powder used for some other higher volume purpose.
 
Yeah, I realize matching up by sight/weight isn't realistic. That said, of the various powders I have on hand, Varget at the same weight makes a nice mid to slightly hotter than mid load at the same weight. I don't like pushing too hot but need decent velocity for distance. My load should generate ~2890 fps. Min load is still over 2700 fps.

I'm a fan of Varget for 6.5 CM through .30-06 as well as 54R and have used it for similar loads with good result and no over-pressure signs. The chronograph and group size will be the proof. If accuracy isn't quite where I want it, I'll adjust the Varget before trying a different powder.

Not necessarily this one, but I bet a lot of the commercial ammo is either using some version of powder that can be bought for reloading or something sold for loading military ammo. Like any other business, I doubt they want to be making too many 'specials'. More accurately, much of what we can buy is probably repackaged powder used for some other higher volume purpose.
From what I been able to decipher is when a powder manufacture makes a run of powder they have a “idea” of the burn rate. They powder is then tested and released to the large ammo manufactures.
Then the remaining batches are blended with previous batches to keep the burn rate closer to uniform for us cellar dwellers.
Most powder manufactures and reload manuals always state to reduce your powder charge with each new lot of powder.
I did not think to save them but the emails I got back from creedmoor where very informative and they explained pretty well why they just cant say we use X grains of Y
 
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From what I been able to decipher is when a powder manufacture makes a run of powder they have a “idea” of the burn rate. They powder is then tested and released to the large ammo manufactures.
Then the remaining batches are blended with previous batches to keep the burn rate closer to uniform for us cellar dwellers.
Most powder manufactures and reload manuals always state to reduce your powder charge with each new lot of powder.
I did not think to save them but the emails I got back from creedmoor where very informative and they explained pretty well why they just cant say we use X grains of Y

I won't ID them (they know who they are :D) but the couple guys at the match who left their old milsurp ammo in the sun maybe got a little more kick out of than they were expecting. At least Varget is fairly temperature stable.

IIRC Creedmoor uses Vihtavuori powder but the specs are between what we can buy commercially. Nice ammo, reminds me I need to keep checking for sales.

Have a bunch of the 150 SST's loaded up. Will try to test them after work this week. I head overseas again on Saturday evening.
 
I won't ID them (they know who they are :D) but the couple guys at the match who left their old milsurp ammo in the sun maybe got a little more kick out of than they were expecting. At least Varget is fairly temperature stable.

IIRC Creedmoor uses Vihtavuori powder but the specs are between what we can buy commercially. Nice ammo, reminds me I need to keep checking for sales.

Have a bunch of the 150 SST's loaded up. Will try to test them after work this week. I head overseas again on Saturday evening.
Unless they changed recently i was led to believe they use powder from General Dynamics for what its worth maybe General D makes powders for Viht? Although i thought Viht was one of the few powder manufactures making thier own stuff in house and of course for other labels im sure.
Creedmoor match is lapua brass and a lapua 167 grain bullet.
Its good stuff all around
Now they might have changed suppliers since 2015 but you can see the powder drums at 1:36 in this video. Those are St marks powder drums made/owned by General Dynamics and if its a extruded powder its made in canada.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN2D_adW2gI

Its all fun . I heard once that if you keep 150-200 grain pills at around 2600-2700 fps with powders in tbe medium range you should find some good accuracy and fine tune from there?
Varget gets a big nod from many different relms of shooting. Trying to remember where i read it but at one point Hodgdon powders where used in the top 100 shooters who hand loaded by more than 80% . We all know by now hodgedon does not make any powder. Fun stuff.
 
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Unless they changed recently i was led to believe they use powder from General Dynamics for what its worth maybe General D makes powders for Viht? Although i thought Viht was one of the few powder manufactures making thier own stuff in house and of course for other labels im sure.
Creedmoor match is lapua brass and a lapua 167 grain bullet.
Its good stuff all around
Now they might have changed suppliers since 2015 but you can see the powder drums at 1:36 in this video. Those are St marks powder drums made/owned by General Dynamics and if its a extruded powder its made in canada.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN2D_adW2gI

Its all fun . I heard once that if you keep 150-200 grain pills at around 2600-2700 fps with powders in tbe medium range you should find some good accuracy and fine tune from there?
Varget gets a big nod from many different relms of shooting. Trying to remember where i read it but at one point Hodgdon powders where used in the top 100 shooters who hand loaded by more than 80% . We all know by now hodgedon does not make any powder. Fun stuff.


Duoh! I think maybe a case of CRS on my part (can't remember sh!t...). I think it was actually the later GP11 I have that appeared to be using Viht powder. It has a pretty unique look to it and I've not seen any other powders look like Viht. The Creedmoor IDK.
 
Duoh! I think maybe a case of CRS on my part (can't remember sh!t...). I think it was actually the later GP11 I have that appeared to be using Viht powder. It has a pretty unique look to it and I've not seen any other powders look like Viht. The Creedmoor IDK.
While back on swiss rifles.com Guisan had mentioned along with a few others on there that Re17 is about as close to GP11 powder as you can get which is made by the swiss.
Also a newer powder Reload Swiss RS is out and about. Not sure how new they are ?
Reload Swiss RS® - RS load data
vhati is made by the Fins? All gets crazy as it seems some plants make certain powders and some dont really make the powders but buy all the stuff and blend it to thier needs?
As for the Finns they seem to like .308dia for thier mosin variant.
I put off getting a mosin sniper back when Wideners had them for $395 . I was into getting some surplus pistols at the time. Same with the swede snipers samco global had.
 
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While back on swiss rifles.com Guisan had mentioned along with a few others on there that Re17 is about as close to GP11 powder as you can get which is made by the swiss.
Also a newer powder Reload Swiss RS is out and about. Not sure how new they are ?
Reload Swiss RS® - RS load data
vhati is made by the Fins? All gets crazy as it seems some plants make certain powders and some dont really make the powders but buy all the stuff and blend it to thier needs?
As for the Finns they seem to like .308dia for thier mosin variant.
I put off getting a mosin sniper back when Wideners had them for $395 . I was into getting some surplus pistols at the time. Same with the swede snipers samco global had.

Into the Mosin sniper for a little over $500, can't complain.
 
Into the Mosin sniper for a little over $500, can't complain.
Nice, i might have to sell off the iron sight rifles and puck up some “snipers”
I tried to use the K98 sights the other day and did not even bother wasting ammo. Cant see the rear notch
 
So I finally took the PU sniper to the range for a quick chronograph test. Glad I came back to this thread- forgot how much Varget I loaded (49.3 gr) with the 150 SST's. First time I somehow forgot to enter the load into my log.

Average was 2915 fps with a SD of 12.5. So my above estimate was pretty close at 2890. ES was ~40 fpm. Seems like a fairly decent load. Used the MagnetoSpeed unit, which when mounted dropped the POI a couple inches and doubled the group size. Group size w/o the MagnetoSpeed was ~1-1/4", so relatively comparable to the factory Hornady and of course good for a Mosin. I was in a bit of a rush and will try this load again plus a load that will drop down a little to ~2800 fpm.

Even at 2900 fps, the recoil seemed very mild. Something I notice about Varget is that the just-fired cases are not that hot. I've had cases from surplus like HXP and other people's hand loads burn the ever living sh!t out of me when I'm hit with a hot case.
 
So I finally took the PU sniper to the range for a quick chronograph test. Glad I came back to this thread- forgot how much Varget I loaded (49.3 gr) with the 150 SST's. First time I somehow forgot to enter the load into my log.

Average was 2915 fps with a SD of 12.5. So my above estimate was pretty close at 2890. ES was ~40 fpm. Seems like a fairly decent load. Used the MagnetoSpeed unit, which when mounted dropped the POI a couple inches and doubled the group size. Group size w/o the MagnetoSpeed was ~1-1/4", so relatively comparable to the factory Hornady and of course good for a Mosin. I was in a bit of a rush and will try this load again plus a load that will drop down a little to ~2800 fpm.

Even at 2900 fps, the recoil seemed very mild. Something I notice about Varget is that the just-fired cases are not that hot. I've had cases from surplus like HXP and other people's hand loads burn the ever living sh!t out of me when I'm hit with a hot case.

1-1/4"!!! Damn those commie garbage fire sticks...you should be shooting at least 1-1/8" groups with any decent sniper :\

Are you talking about brass from a semi auto v. brass from a bolt gun though? Brass from a semi auto burns hot because it spends such little time in the chamber. Brass in bolt guns get the 'heat sink' effect and are generally a LOT cooler on ejection/extraction.
 
1-1/4"!!! Damn those commie garbage fire sticks...you should be shooting at least 1-1/8" groups with any decent sniper :\

Are you talking about brass from a semi auto v. brass from a bolt gun though? Brass from a semi auto burns hot because it spends such little time in the chamber. Brass in bolt guns get the 'heat sink' effect and are generally a LOT cooler on ejection/extraction.

Very good point! Who are you, and whose brains did you steal? :D

I agree completely, but even when comparing semi to semi, some seem a LOT hotter.
 
Nice , still a little stout in my mine. I really have become a recoil pussy being cheap with powder. Im hoping to gran some of those 125 grain .310” nosler put out a few years ago inside 200 they might be little laser beams from that commie junk?
 
Nice , still a little stout in my mine. I really have become a recoil pussy being cheap with powder. Im hoping to gran some of those 125 grain .310” nosler put out a few years ago inside 200 they might be little laser beams from that commie junk?

Maybe. Push those 125's at ~2700 and you'd have to be the world's biggest recoil pussy to complain.

The 150's at 2900 are not bad at all. I was shooting from the bench in a t-shirt. When I shoot GP11 in the K31 or surplus in a Mosin from the bench, I'll wear a pussy pad to keep the screws in my shoulder from coming loose.
 
Maybe. Push those 125's at ~2700 and you'd have to be the world's biggest recoil pussy to complain.

The 150's at 2900 are not bad at all. I was shooting from the bench in a t-shirt. When I shoot GP11 in the K31 or surplus in a Mosin from the bench, I'll wear a pussy pad to keep the screws in my shoulder from coming loose.
I shot those 180 grain round nose a full house loads.
Yes I,have become a recoil pussy!
The K31 even with the 168s at 2600fps i found to be very easy on the shoulder. Just a better fit and I have not taken the time to compare pitch of the stock between the different rifles.
i will say though the mosin and garand just dont fit me well
 
Very good point! Who are you, and whose brains did you steal? :D

I agree completely, but even when comparing semi to semi, some seem a LOT hotter.

I ate Dakar's brains, but there wasn't much left after 8 years in the Corps! Mostly crayola wax scraps and elmers glue leftover from snack time.

My jap crap type 99 absolutely loves the Nosler Varmageddon 124gr .310's...i've been looking for more and if/when I can get my hands on some i'll buy extra so I can share the love. I got a really sweet deal on the M14 forum for some 150gr Hornady SST's in .312 and 200gr Lapua .310's that are supposedly some of the best M39 food out there. I can't wait until my house is ready to sell so I can come join you guys at a few matches before I skip town for a few years.
 
I ate Dakar's brains, but there wasn't much left after 8 years in the Corps! Mostly crayola wax scraps and elmers glue leftover from snack time.

My jap crap type 99 absolutely loves the Nosler Varmageddon 124gr .310's...i've been looking for more and if/when I can get my hands on some i'll buy extra so I can share the love. I got a really sweet deal on the M14 forum for some 150gr Hornady SST's in .312 and 200gr Lapua .310's that are supposedly some of the best M39 food out there. I can't wait until my house is ready to sell so I can come join you guys at a few matches before I skip town for a few years.

Remind us to tell you which way to point the business end of your rifles.[wink]
 
I ate Dakar's brains, but there wasn't much left after 8 years in the Corps! Mostly crayola wax scraps and elmers glue leftover from snack time.

My jap crap type 99 absolutely loves the Nosler Varmageddon 124gr .310's...i've been looking for more and if/when I can get my hands on some i'll buy extra so I can share the love. I got a really sweet deal on the M14 forum for some 150gr Hornady SST's in .312 and 200gr Lapua .310's that are supposedly some of the best M39 food out there. I can't wait until my house is ready to sell so I can come join you guys at a few matches before I skip town for a few years.
If you come back To Ma for more than a visit I will kick you in the nuts several times. Then some how you will end up with M1 private parts! Go be free and NEVER look back.
 
If you come back To Ma for more than a visit I will kick you in the nuts several times. Then some how you will end up with M1 private parts! Go be free and NEVER look back.

Might not have a choice on that one! My fiancee' is basically a rock star at her job and her future is brilliant while mine is...we'll say dimly flickering. Trouble is, her work will likely keep her around here as this is where all her research/teaching opportunities are. Lucky for me, i'm in a position where I can hold onto all my 'pre-healy' crap and bring it back if I have to.

I'll tell you what though...I've been out to Indy 3 times in the past 2 months and it really IS a different world. There's a neighborhood fireworks store right at the end of my street...probably used to be a 7eleven, but they found there's more money in explosives, lol. Everytime I've been there (not just the 4th of July) you can hear fireworks all night in every direction.

Oddly enough, it's been like pulling teeth trying to find a 200+m gun range out there! The closest one I can find that has a reasonable membership fee and basic provisions (trust me, I don't need much other than a flat spot with a pile of dirt at the end of it) is over an HOUR away! Turns out most people don't bother with ranges because everyone has a friend with 500 acres of corn field...except me.

I'll find something though. Still have a few months here to take advantage of you old timers and your fast failing eyesight :D Trouble is, I haven't even had time to practice lately I've been so busy on the house. Almost done though!
 
Might not have a choice on that one! My fiancee' is basically a rock star at her job and her future is brilliant while mine is...we'll say dimly flickering. Trouble is, her work will likely keep her around here as this is where all her research/teaching opportunities are. Lucky for me, i'm in a position where I can hold onto all my 'pre-healy' crap and bring it back if I have to.

I'll tell you what though...I've been out to Indy 3 times in the past 2 months and it really IS a different world. There's a neighborhood fireworks store right at the end of my street...probably used to be a 7eleven, but they found there's more money in explosives, lol. Everytime I've been there (not just the 4th of July) you can hear fireworks all night in every direction.

Oddly enough, it's been like pulling teeth trying to find a 200+m gun range out there! The closest one I can find that has a reasonable membership fee and basic provisions (trust me, I don't need much other than a flat spot with a pile of dirt at the end of it) is over an HOUR away! Turns out most people don't bother with ranges because everyone has a friend with 500 acres of corn field...except me.

I'll find something though. Still have a few months here to take advantage of you old timers and your fast failing eyesight :D Trouble is, I haven't even had time to practice lately I've been so busy on the house. Almost done though!
fiancee' ! you still have time!;)
 
Looks like you had a good day.

200M 1943 #4T
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100M 1908 m41b
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fiancee' ! you still have time!;)

She's also the reason i'm getting the hell out of dodge for (at least) a few years. I was so stagnate working at the junk yard when I met her...hell, i'd probably have died there. 2 years after the junk yard and now out of the Marine Corps...it's time for greener pastures!

She's a good girl. She's not a shooter...not yet anyway. But she's from Georgia and knows how to put up with guys like me that basically only think about one thing (vintage rifles).
 
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