Red Dot EDC experience

[PappyM3]

Personally, I wouldn't trust my life to batteries. In my experience they will fail just when you need them most. I'd stick with iron sights on my personal carry or duty gun.

You do you, but pretty much the entire 19 year span from the beginning GWOT until now has proven the reliability of modern red dots. And since the RMR, there have been equally long-lasting battery and reliable pistol red dots that have been tested in brutal and extreme situations.

I think it’s more a fear purely based on not having enough experience and exposure to red dots. That said, a simple solution is to use suppressor height sights as a backup, and use a Holosun that has solar backup, illuminating the dot outside even without batteries.

 

[Artifact]

Main problem I have with rd's for carry is we live in New England, stand outside in the cold for 10 minutes and then walk into a warm building, (like park your car and walk across parking lot into a mall or store) you now cannot aim at all without wiping the damn thing off because it's fogged, and you can't see your front sight either. Same for summer, sit inside in the A/C for a while and then go outside on a humid day and have some crack head pull a knife on you and demand your wallet....you'll be like "well hold on for a second while I wipe my red dot off so I can see my sights"

That’s not really an issue.

To piggy back on what Pappy is referring too. People need to let go of the old mentality, battery fear etc. Things have changed in both gear and tactics. I am on the same battery I was 2 years ago and it stays on 24/7. Change it every six months if you feel you need too.

 

[Wickedcoolname]

You do you, but pretty much the entire 19 year span from the beginning GWOT until now has proven the reliability of modern red dots. And since the RMR, there have been equally long-lasting battery and reliable pistol red dots that have been tested in brutal and extreme situations.

I think it’s more a fear purely based on not having enough experience and exposure to red dots. That said, a simple solution is to use suppressor height sights as a backup, and use a Holosun that has solar backup, illuminating the dot outside even without batteries.

Well, in my 20 years of carrying a gun for a living I've and 13 years as a TRT member I've had batteries fail on more than one occasion during training. Flashlight once and holisight twice. That was enough for me.
But I do use a red dot on my Camp Carbine and on my target .22 and neither have failed. But once was enough for me.

 

[PappyM3]

Well, in my 20 years of carrying a gun for a living I've and 13 years as a TRT member I've had batteries fail on more than one occasion during training. Flashlight once and holisight twice. That was enough for me.
But I do use a red dot on my Camp Carbine and on my target .22 and neither have failed. But once was enough for me.

Okay, so let me get this straight. You’re writing off modern electronic optics because you had a couple bad experiences with a mid-low tier optic from the ‘90s and you had a flashlight battery die?

I say again with slight emphasis correction, your fear is based on not having enough experience and exposure to good quality modern red dots.

Edit: I just looked it up, and the Holosight had a whopping 40 hours of runtime Eotechs have 600 hours and Aimpoints have 50,000 hours.

 

[paul73]

Okay, so let me get this straight. You’re writing off modern electronic optics because you had a couple bad experiences with a mid-low tier optic from the ‘90s and you had a flashlight battery die?

I say again with slight emphasize correction, your fear is based on not having enough experience and exposure to good quality modern red dots.

Edit: I just looked it up, and the Holosight had a whopping 40 hours of runtime

Not sure what point you’re trying to make but anything with a battery can fail.
Of good modern ones - a vortex one died in my hands while trying to zero it. And went back to Amazon. Stuff happens.

 

[PappyM3]

Not sure what point you’re trying to make but anything with a battery can fail.
Of good modern ones - a vortex one died in my hands while trying to zero it. And went back to Amazon. Stuff happens.

The point I’m trying to make is that people shouldn’t be afraid of electronic optics on duty/carry guns. There is an extremely lengthy history of them being very resilient in austere environments. So much so that the users often ditch iron sights backups.

Yes, anything electronic can fail. But the failure rate of good quality modern electronic optics is incredibly small. Much smaller than mechanical failures in the guns their on.

By the way. Vortex is not a “good” modern one. Some of their scopes are “good”. But their electronic sights are mid-range. Not cheapo stuff, but not what I would put on a gun going into harms way.

 

[paul73]

The point I’m trying to make is that people shouldn’t be afraid of electronic optics on duty/carry guns. There is an extremely lengthy history of them being very resilient in austere environments. So much so that the users often ditch iron sights backups.

Yes, anything electronic can fail. But the failure rate of good quality modern electronic optics is incredibly small. Much smaller than mechanical failures in the guns their on.

By the way. Vortex is not a “good” modern one. Some of their scopes are “good”. But their electronic sights are mid-range. Not cheapo stuff, but not what I would put on a gun going into harms way.

I am not scared of red dots at all.
I am just in a same camp - on a survival weapon you do not want to be dependent upon it. Prism or optical scope- fine.

On a pistol I love DPP on a range gun, pleasure to shoot at 25yds.
On the EDC P365 I expect a possible engagement distance of under 10yds. Why do I need a red dot for that?

 

[Grendizer138]

Not sure what point you’re trying to make but anything with a battery can fail.
Of good modern ones - a vortex one died in my hands while trying to zero it. And went back to Amazon. Stuff happens.

I’ve seen pistol RDS failures of all sorts - many of them operator failures like not using threadlock - but failures nonetheless. They certainly do seem to increase accuracy, but I think the only way to find out if a RDS is right for you, and what issues you may encounter, is to take a pistol class with one.

 

[PappyM3]

I am not scared of red dots at all.
I am just in a same camp - on a survival weapon you do not want to be dependent upon it. Prism or optical scope- fine.

On a pistol I love DPP on a range gun, pleasure to shoot at 25yds.
On the EDC P365 I expect a possible engagement distance of under 10yds. Why do I need a red dot for that?

“Survival weapon”, yeah that brings a whole other aspect into things, regarding access to a supply chain. And on SHTF contingency guns, I like non-battery or at least solar backup options. That’s long term precautions though. But I do see that point.

And yes, for a concealed carry application, the benefits aren’t as large as for duty carry and such. But it does still have the benefit of being able to focus on the target. Be able to positively ID a threat while still maintaining sight picture, and also maintaining situational awareness to ensure the threat is still a threat before you shoot, rather than shooting at a fuzzy outline because you had to shift focus to your front sight. This benefit is amplified for older folks where it takes a lot longer to shift focal distance.

 

[Wickedcoolname]

Okay, so let me get this straight. You’re writing off modern electronic optics because you had a couple bad experiences with a mid-low tier optic from the ‘90s and you had a flashlight battery die?

I say again with slight emphasis correction, your fear is based on not having enough experience and exposure to good quality modern red dots.

Edit: I just looked it up, and the Holosight had a whopping 40 hours of runtime Eotechs have 600 hours and Aimpoints have 50,000 hours.

Yes. I'm writing them off on my carry gun.

 

[AHM]

How do veterans who've humped literal pounds of spare batteries
to run starlight scopes, NVG's etc. feel about the reliability and lifespan of
modern batteries for modern optics?

When I think about it, I'm a little more liberal about replacing batteries
on any appliance because IIRC infantry used to have to treat batteries
as if it was ammo that merely depleted over the course of a few hours
rather than with a single trigger press. If it wasn't for war stories like that,
I'd really be looking for some way to skinflint.

 

[PappyM3]

How do veterans who've humped literal pounds of spare batteries
to run starlight scopes, NVG's etc. feel about the reliability and lifespan of
modern batteries for modern optics?

When I think about it, I'm a little more liberal about replacing batteries
on any appliance because IIRC infantry used to have to treat batteries
as if it was ammo that merely depleted over the course of a few hours
rather than with a single trigger press. If it wasn't for war stories like that,
I'd really be looking for some way to skinflint.

A spare red dot optic battery is vastly different than a radio/SIGINT/mine detector etc battery.

Combat arms soldiers in general love modern red dots/eotechs. Carrying a couple spare batteries isn’t an issue, but spare batteries are strictly for contingencies. Generally, an Aimpoint battery will last an entire deployment while turned on. They’re still turned off between patrols, but they have the battery life. But spare batteries are part of PCCs/PCIs. For shorter battery lives, like eotechs, units will have their own SOPs for how often batteries are changed.

Combat arms/SOF have so much faith in modern electronic optics that many go without backup irons. To be fair though, in a military setting you have teammates to cover you if your optic dies. But that is exceedingly rare. Modern red dots have truly proven themselves since 2001.

 

[AHM]

A spare red dot optic battery is vastly different than a radio/SIGINT/mine detector etc battery.

Combat arms soldiers in general love modern red dots/eotechs. Carrying a couple spare batteries isn’t an issue, but spare batteries are strictly for contingencies. ...

That's what I suspected.

 

[PappyM3]

That's what I suspected.

I’ll also add that with SOF personnel, who have more flexibility in adding pistol optics, can sometimes be seen rocking RMRs on their Glock 19s. It’s become more common. And I think it will start extending to conventional units with the M17’s ability to mount optics without modification.

 

[Grendizer138]

Resurrecting this because with the recent tech improvements and seeing the RDS accuracy first hand in classes, I’m starting to reevaluate…

 

[kalash]

On the EDC P365 I expect a possible engagement distance of under 10yds. Why do I need a red dot for that?

This. I struggle to see the value in spending hundreds of dollars on an optic (assuming your pistol is optics ready and doesn't need to be cut at additional cost) in order to shoot at expected/likely self-defense distances.

Do optics fog up when you draw from IWB in cold weather?

 

[NHKevin]

It's kind of a stupid hypothetical scenario I mentioned and maybe not even worth the conversation now that I'm looking back on it. There is supposedly a school of thought that one should be cautious when adding certain after market things to their guns to avoid giving prosecutors something to point at in the unlikely scenario of having to actually use your gun in a defensive scenario. Things like lighter triggers, Punisher logos, anything really that might make it seem more credible that a shooting was perpetrated by someone eager to shoot someone else.

Don't be a retard

 

[Deplorable]

I happened to be the topic starter. Just to share my findings after I finally got hold of the 365XL with RDS. To cut it short, it did not work for me. The reasons in no particular order

-- size matters. The sight is smaller than of the one on my 226, the gun itself is lighter thus more recoil. Neither of these factors helps to acquire the dot. Working on technique helps. But no matter how you spin it, it is a disadvantage. The feature you do not want to be attached to your EDC weapon.
-- size matters, the sight prints
-- unlike 226 with factory RDS slide, the iron sights do not work as a backup
-- one battery went dead in 2 months, it was just bad battery, but I have no magic powers to assess and monitor battery quality. Voltage, especially measured without a load, is not a good indicator of remaining life time.

YMMV, but I did not bind with RDS on an EDC. The night stand gun is a different story, though.

 

[Grendizer138]

I happened to be the topic starter. Just to share my findings after I finally got hold of the 365XL with RDS. To cut it short, it did not work for me. The reasons in no particular order

-- size matters. The sight is smaller than of the one on my 226, the gun itself is lighter thus more recoil. Neither of these factors helps to acquire the dot. Working on technique helps. But no matter how you spin it, it is a disadvantage. The feature you do not want to be attached to your EDC weapon.
-- size matters, the sight prints
-- unlike 226 with factory RDS slide, the iron sights do not work as a backup
-- one battery went dead in 2 months, it was just bad battery, but I have no magic powers to assess and monitor battery quality. Voltage, especially measured without a load, is not a good indicator of remaining life time.

YMMV, but I did not bind with RDS on an EDC. The night stand gun is a different story, though.

Which RDS?

 

[Deplorable]

Which RDS?

Holosun 507K

 

[JY0512]

This. I struggle to see the value in spending hundreds of dollars on an optic (assuming your pistol is optics ready and doesn't need to be cut at additional cost) in order to shoot at expected/likely self-defense distances.

Do optics fog up when you draw from IWB in cold weather?

I haven't noticed any fogging, and I think carrying IWB keeps it warm enough. In addition to that, could always apply antifog to the red dot. And why not have every advantage possible with the addition of a red dot? I think this paper goes over the advantages of red dots pretty well. The author of the paper is Sage Dynamics, and he goes over red dots thoroughly.

https://www.sagedynamics.org/_files/ugd/7dc128_65844d9baead41afab8bfabb23e912fa.pdf

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

Don't be a retard

That' a lot of insight to unpack there.

 

[allen-1]

I have two primary carry guns. An iron-sighted G43X, (with the 15 round Shield mag), that I carry IWB and a second fullsize that I carry in a knapsack.

I've had an iron sighted G17 in the knapsack for five or six years now. I just replaced it with a G31 with a Trijicon RMR. The G31 is a .357Sig that's the same frame as a G17/G34. I have Trijicon SRO's on a couple of my competition guns, that I've been shooting for the last year plus and the more I shoot them, the more I like the dot.

I'm a little leery of the SRO for a carry, and I had the RMR already mounted on the 31, so I swapped in a conversion barrel to run 9mm in it.

I've been contemplating going from the iron 17 to the dot 31 for a while - didn't initially for some of the same concerns already expressed in this thread - battery failing at worst possible time, dot breaking. But, I've run literally thousands of rounds through my SRO mounted G34 and it hasn't faltered. I think the RMR is slightly more rugged, and the battery life on the two is the same - so I'm carrying it now...

YMMV.

 

[Broc]

It's kind of a stupid hypothetical scenario I mentioned and maybe not even worth the conversation now that I'm looking back on it. There is supposedly a school of thought that one should be cautious when adding certain after market things to their guns to avoid giving prosecutors something to point at in the unlikely scenario of having to actually use your gun in a defensive scenario. Things like lighter triggers, Punisher logos, anything really that might make it seem more credible that a shooting was perpetrated by someone eager to shoot someone else.

Mostly myth started by all the pant sh*tters. The same people that only carry MA approved guns because "if I ever end up in court ..."

Get a story from a lawyer, then I will pay attention.

I would tag one of our resident lawyers, but don't want to waste their time. But, it would be nice to hear from them if this sort of stuff was ever an issue.