Red dot on a carry pistol - worth it to mill a slide or nah?

anyone want to address the added weight vs the recoil spring and reliable cycling of the gun without some tuning?
 
I should try more speed point and shoot with the red dot I have on a .22 and see if at typical 7 yard range it makes a difference (I doubt it) but at 40 yards it absolutely will make a difference in terms of speed and acquisition.
The thing is, 40 yards is a long way to shoot with a CCW type gun. I was shooting at 50 with a G17 with some goodies on it. I shot my G43x today for the first time. 40 yards with that gun would definitely be a challenge, shooting it 'fast' would be more than I could handle at that range. I wouldn't bet on myself getting solid hits at second par times between shots.
Don’t have to go out to 40 yards. Try ten yard head shots with irons and then red dot.
I'm going to ask to borrow the range guys' 43 with a red dot. I've just always felt they were like lasers, you see so much jitter, unless you are comfortable with the jitter, it'd be a distraction. That said, I know a bunch of high level shooters that are transitioning to dots, there must be something to it. I know they work on rifles, maybe just need to bite the bullet and ride the learning curve.
 
anyone want to address the added weight vs the recoil spring and reliable cycling of the gun without some tuning?
I'm going to go with 'meh' on the weight. At least the couple of times I've handled a pistol with a dot on it, which I admit isn't a lot of trigger time.
 
This.

This stage on steel challenge is the fastest stage, no one looks at their sights. The 4 rectangle targets are about a torso size.

When you are that close, you draw and shoot. If you can't do it, you are not practicing enough.

I have shoot that stage in 2.7 seconds with a revolver and never aimed except for the stop plate.

A red dot is nice to have it, but I would train to not rely on it.

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2.7 from a 'real' holster, or low ready?

I have a somewhat similar steel setup at the range I shoot at. Smaller targets, but still fun to try. Range is closed on Weds, so I got time to set up my excuses.
 
everything what may break - will break when you will need it most. and a red dot is the least reliable part of any gun.
iron night sights that glow in the dark will not fail and will be visible in any sunlight.

to each his own.
So I assume you o ly use revolvers, since you're more likely to get a failure with a semi auto.
 
The thing is, 40 yards is a long way to shoot with a CCW type gun. I was shooting at 50 with a G17 with some goodies on it. I shot my G43x today for the first time. 40 yards with that gun would definitely be a challenge, shooting it 'fast' would be more than I could handle at that range. I wouldn't bet on myself getting solid hits at second par times between shots.

I'm going to ask to borrow the range guys' 43 with a red dot. I've just always felt they were like lasers, you see so much jitter, unless you are comfortable with the jitter, it'd be a distraction. That said, I know a bunch of high level shooters that are transitioning to dots, there must be something to it. I know they work on rifles, maybe just need to bite the bullet and ride the learning curve.
40 yards is a long distance for a 3 inch barrel with iron sights, yes, but the dot doesn't care about sight radius. You may have to still use kentucky windage and hold off the target to hit it at that distance, but you'll have an easier time doing it with a dot optic, which means faster.

The dots are not like lasers where the tiny movements cause massive shake of the laser the further out the laser is, the dot moves no more than what your front sight would.

I was originally not supportive of dots on pistols, I thought it was another tactical fad, but I was wrong. Now, that does not mean I support putting a dot on EVERY pistol, it depends on the pistol and its role.

For me, the .22 I have a dot on made sense as it already had a pic rail that came with it is is quite large, so it's not a gun meant for CC. The LCP, snub J frame, and other ultra compact pistols are poor choices for a dot as well since the goal with those pistols is to make them as small as possible for better concealment.

Pistols like the P365 are about as small a pistol a dot would be practical.
 
anyone want to address the added weight vs the recoil spring and reliable cycling of the gun without some tuning?
That is only a consideration with 22lr pistols that cycle the slide. Or maybe if you’re shooting powder puff loads for a competition.
 
The thing is, 40 yards is a long way to shoot with a CCW type gun. I was shooting at 50 with a G17 with some goodies on it. I shot my G43x today for the first time. 40 yards with that gun would definitely be a challenge, shooting it 'fast' would be more than I could handle at that range. I wouldn't bet on myself getting solid hits at second par times between shots.

I'm going to ask to borrow the range guys' 43 with a red dot. I've just always felt they were like lasers, you see so much jitter, unless you are comfortable with the jitter, it'd be a distraction. That said, I know a bunch of high level shooters that are transitioning to dots, there must be something to it. I know they work on rifles, maybe just need to bite the bullet and ride the learning curve.
You will see wobble with your red dot. You get used to it in the same way you get used to using iron sites at various distances. At 5 yards, you know you don’t need an perfect iron site picture to hit the target — a flash of the front site on the center of the target and you are good. For head shots at 50’, you know you have to settle the sights and focus hard on the front sight.

Dealing with wobble of a red dot is the same sort of thing. At 5 yards if the dot is anywhere near the middle of the target you just hammer the trigger. For harder shots, you have to settle the dot more.

As for shooting at 40 yards, I can’t shoot fast at that distance whether with a dot or back when I could see iron sites. A good trigger helps and my Glock 43x certainly doesn’t have what I would call a good trigger.
 
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2.7 from a 'real' holster, or low ready?

I have a somewhat similar steel setup at the range I shoot at. Smaller targets, but still fun to try. Range is closed on Weds, so I got time to set up my excuses.
Holster. OWB.
 
1) not if you have old eyes like mine.
2) not all defensive encounters happen within 15 yards.
I would bet most defensive encounters are less than 7 yards (in a convenience store, getting mugged or car jacked, intruder in your home). At that distance, on a man sized object, carrying a carry-size gun (<4” barrel; if you’re rockin‘ a 5” 1911 on a daily basis my hat’s off to you), in a high stress situation that most do not have adequate training or practice for, elevated heart rate, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, and the fact that most shooters way over-estimate their abilities (oh yeah? Well I can shoot the balls of an ant at 50 yards with my 9mm gack), having to make split second decisions about how, when, and if, to engage, planning a route to cover or concealment, trying to create space between you and the attacker to give you time to draw your gun, worrying about bystanders, disengaging safeties if you have one, covering the target with the front of the gun is about the most you’ll likely get no matter how many “save the day“ 50 yard shot fantasies one might have.
 
I would bet most defensive encounters are less than 7 yards (in a convenience store, getting mugged or car jacked, intruder in your home). At that distance, on a man sized object, carrying a carry-size gun (<4” barrel; if you’re rockin‘ a 5” 1911 on a daily basis my hat’s off to you), in a high stress situation that most do not have adequate training or practice for, elevated heart rate, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, and the fact that most shooters way over-estimate their abilities (oh yeah? Well I can shoot the balls of an ant at 50 yards with my 9mm gack), having to make split second decisions about how, when, and if, to engage, planning a route to cover or concealment, trying to create space between you and the attacker to give you time to draw your gun, worrying about bystanders, disengaging safeties if you have one, covering the target with the front of the gun is about the most you’ll likely get no matter how many “save the day“ 50 yard shot fantasies one might have.

Most of that may be true but that still doesn't make an RDS on a carry gun a horrible idea. I may not be into the TV set thing but it is trivially easy to see why other people are. Its a system and if you havent used an RDS heavily there is a "curve" to it.
 
Dots don’t just sprinkle magical unicorn jizz on your shooting. You still need to have proper and at very least decent shooting mechanics. Dots are the way to go, been pushing them for years.

Honestly 95% of the reason I dont have an RDS on my larger carry guns (eg G19 or larger - I still think the thimble sized red dots on things like 43x 365 are dumb, its just too small) is I know that if I go down that road its going to cost me a shitload of money because I'd probably end up converting a lot of guns. [laugh]
 
We have the recent mall shooting in Indiana where Dickens engaged the target at between 30 and 40 yards.

LuckyGunner addressed this issue far better than I can. At what distances do self defense shootings actually occur? Here is the best analysis I’ve ever seen:


View: https://youtu.be/l81Qs096Nho


Using LAPD’s data for law enforcement shootings (admittedly a bad proxy for self defense shooting), that data shows more shootings beyond 21’ than inside. FBI data showed the reverse.

Tom Givens‘ former students have been in 67 incidents. Most were within 5 yards, but some were at further distances.

As for disengagimg safeties, I was trained to lower the safety on the draw and I practiced it to where it became an automatic. If you have to think about lowering the safety then you haven’t trained enough. But I carry a Glock these days.
 
As for disengagimg safeties, I was trained to lower the safety on the draw and I practiced it to where it became an automatic. If you have to think about lowering the safety then you haven’t trained enough. But I carry a Glock these days.

I still sweep off the nonexistent safety on a glock because I carried officers mods for a couple of years, the thumb sweeps the side... [rofl]
 
Dots don’t just sprinkle magical unicorn jizz on your shooting. You still need to have proper and at very least decent shooting mechanics. Dots are the way to go, been pushing them for years.
Amen to that. I have no problem aiming with iron sights / red dots -- trigger control was much harder for me to learn and do properly.
 
This.

This stage on steel challenge is the fastest stage, no one looks at their sights. The 4 rectangle targets are about a torso size.

When you are that close, you draw and shoot. If you can't do it, you are not practicing enough.

I have shoot that stage in 2.7 seconds with a revolver and never aimed except for the stop plate.

A red dot is nice to have it, but I would train to not rely on it.

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That's FAST. My current best on that stage is 11.48 with a red dot. I'm point-shooting the first four and aiming for the stop plate.
 
That's FAST. My current best on that stage is 11.48 with a red dot. I'm point-shooting the first four and aiming for the stop plate.
I have done 2.7 a handful of times. I am usually at 3.3-3.5.

There is no way you are at 11.4, I saw you shoot it at Area 7. Are you talking about total time?
If you are talking about total time, that makes sense.

11.4/4 = 2.87 ... that is good.
 
Honestly 95% of the reason I dont have an RDS on my larger carry guns …. is I know that if I go down that road its going to cost me a shitload of money because I'd probably end up converting a lot of guns. [laugh]
There is truth here.
I would bet most defensive encounters are less than 7 yards (in a convenience store, getting mugged or car jacked, intruder in your home). At that distance, on a man sized object, carrying a carry-size gun (<4” barrel; if you’re rockin‘ a 5” 1911 on a daily basis my hat’s off to you), in a high stress situation that most do not have adequate training or practice for, elevated heart rate, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, and the fact that most shooters way over-estimate their abilities (oh yeah? Well I can shoot the balls of an ant at 50 yards with my 9mm gack), having to make split second decisions about how, when, and if, to engage, planning a route to cover or concealment, trying to create space between you and the attacker to give you time to draw your gun, worrying about bystanders, disengaging safeties if you have one, covering the target with the front of the gun is about the most you’ll likely get no matter how many “save the day“ 50 yard shot fantasies one might have.
None of that makes red dots a bad idea.

Most defensive shootings and even police shootings have the person reporting that they didn’t even see the front sight because they lose their fundamentals. This incidentally increases SA, but makes accuracy pretty poor. At least with a red dot, you don’t need to worry about that and you have a better chance at placing a bullet in the boiler room instead of hitting the threat … somewhere. Of course, you still need to have proper trigger squeeze, but that is key with any sighting system.
 
Holy shit i dont often read all the comments on a 3 page thread but goddamn did this one deliver. Strong candidate for top 10 out yourself threads of 2022 so far.

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The future is now. Quality RDS are superior to iron sights in Every. Single. Way.
Just one more thing to snag as the gun leaves holster. I assume daily carry you’ve got a snug IWB or OWB on the strong side under some layer of clothing and are not carrying Han Solo style..
 
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