Red dot on a carry pistol - worth it to mill a slide or nah?

paul73

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it is a rather absurd statement.

i looked again at what was in the media about that incident. i do not see where from did you make a presumption about confirmed clean line of fire. he fired 10, missed 2. got most hits done well, great outcome for his young age and steady arm.

an officer in his place would most likely try to cut the distance increasing potential harm for himself, but reducing probability of misses. to expect a civilian bystander to execute that, having his own family and kids by his side - ok, it gets difficult to talk about morals.

for the said less trained bystander to begin thinking - i`ve got an invincible red dot sight now that will not let me miss anything from 50yds and start emptying his mag into the wild - it is what 'unethical' definition is.
 
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eboos

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it is a rather absurd statement.

i looked again at what was in the media about that incident. i do not see where did you make a presumption about confirmed clean line of fire. he fired 10, missed 2. got most hits done well, great outcome for his young age and steady arm.

an officer in his place would most likely try to cut the distance increasing potential harm for himself, but reducing probability of misses. to expect a civilian bystander to execute that, having his own family and kids by his side - ok, it gets difficult to talk about morals.

for the said less trained bystander to begin thinking - i`ve got an invincible red dot sight now that will not let me miss anything from 50yds and start emptying his mag into the wild - it is what 'unethical' definition is.
When arguing from an absurd position, well, there isn't anything to argue.

Means, ability and opportunity: in a situation where there is some mass shooter randomly taking lives and those three elements are present - I don't care who you are - you have an obligation to respond. Is it a legal obligation - no. But, whatever. I guess that is just my humble opinion.

A noob as you described may have the means, may have the opportunity, but does not have the ability and you know this.
 

paul73

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but does not have the ability and you know this.
there is nothing worse than a sense of a false self-assurance. and i see nothing else in that red dot install topic than boosting precisely that, for most.

at least i am not that naive to think that if i cannot reliably do 10/10 at a certain distance because my damn hands wobble - then a new sight system will cure it. as it will not, as i still got same damn wobbly 50 yr old muscles now, not a 19 yr old ones.
 

eboos

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there is nothing worse than a sense of a false self-assurance. and i see nothing else in that red dot install topic than boosting precisely that, for most.

at least i am not that naive to think that if i cannot reliably do 10/10 at a certain distance because my damn hands wobble - then a new sight system will cure it. as it will not, as i still got same damn wobbly 50 yr old muscles now, not a 19 yr old ones.
Who said it would?
 

JRT

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you are getting to what i dislike the most. a distraction. with irons when it is critical - you draw and plant a shot. with a dot - you draw and then cannot stop but think, hmm, where is my dot there? ohh, here it is. ok. bang.
for most with a well practiced draw it means that your off shot with irons could have been 5-7 inches lower/higher before you adjusted it, but usually with not that much of the horizontal off. matters not on a human sized target at 15yds. with a dot - it may end up to be a no shot, as you will be thinking of where did the dot go. and, well, may be already dead by that time.

i never argue with facts - and it is a fact that once you got on a dot - the next target acquisition speed is much faster, it is way more accurate, all the good things.
if you carry for a duty, gun is always warm and clean - and check the status of the device religiously - why not.

but if one carries sporadically, gun sits in the dark safe with dot left 'always on' always - it is not going to end well, it is only logic. it will eventually either discharge mid-day, or will be forgotten to be turned off/on. but i think no matter what i say here the other side is on the stubborn mode now, so, to each their own.
Respectfully, I think you may be the one in stubborn mode. I get being stubborn, I will not use a WML on a self defense pistol. This is all because Massad Ayoob gave me a bunch of reasons why its bad in a class in 1999, for all I know he has changed his mind in 23 years but I haven't!

My point for the most part remains, the people against RDS' seem to have little to no experience and haven't spent the time to try to become proficient, they use old tenets for why they are bad. In the end, it doesn't matter, you do what makes you happy but there may be a better way.
 

Soundwave

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Being cross eye dominant the red dot has really helped me. I still need to practice more with it but it's only on my HD Glock 17 for now not my P365x EDC.
 
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I think it’s funny how some people are saying a rds isn’t necessary since incidents are likely to occur at short distances. That’s like saying no one needs more than 10 rounds. A rds is an advantage and you should use whatever you can.
 

allen-1

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I've seen your scores, no way it took you 11.48 seconds.

For four runs:

1663175496999.png


And for the doubters of red dots - my SC gun is the same gun I shoot in USPSA/IDPA/pins/plates... It's a G34 with a Trijicon SRO. Took me a while to get used to it, now I just look at the target and the dot falls onto it. Lots and lots of dryfire practice to get to that point.


1663175436146.png
 

PappyM3

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there is nothing worse than a sense of a false self-assurance. and i see nothing else in that red dot install topic than boosting precisely that, for most.

at least i am not that naive to think that if i cannot reliably do 10/10 at a certain distance because my damn hands wobble - then a new sight system will cure it. as it will not, as i still got same damn wobbly 50 yr old muscles now, not a 19 yr old ones.

Steady aim is just one factor. Trigger squeeze another. But then you have sight picture, and inconsistent sight picture of pistol iron sights at distance can be a HUGE factor in poor accuracy. And those factors are additive.

Also, here are some data aggregated gathered from force on force training. It doesn’t lie. Red dot hits are more likely to be incapacitating shots. I cropped out the rear view because neither had hits there and I couldn’t frame it on my screen well.
6F356A36-1E7D-485C-981B-A7F95F5E5BA3.jpeg
D56DF725-6EC8-46F6-987A-7DC4C3BB5BF0.jpeg
 

meh

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I will not use a WML on a self defense pistol. This is all because Massad Ayoob gave me a bunch of reasons why its bad in a class in 1999, for all I know he has changed his mind in 23 years but I haven't!
He just did a video on that the other day. What he said was: WML good for aiming, very bad for searching. Use a flashlight for searching, not WML.
 

allen-1

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I expect this is a lot of it. There seem to be some assumptions that probably include "You won't have time to turn it on" that are obviated by Shake-Awake or other always-on solutions.

My two delaying tactics remain my (admittedly minor) astigmatism in both eyes, and (like Mike) I don't want to spend the money. I then excuse it with "I still have young enough eyes that irons are ok."

I have astigmatisms in both eyes. I started shooting a dot a year or two ago, and initially had a LOT of trouble with it. The trouble that everyone has - finding the damn dot when you go from holster or low ready to getting a sight picture.

I did a bit of research and a bunch of dryfire. Problem gone. I can close my eyes, draw from my holster, present the gun and when I open my eyes - I see the dot. The gun is in the correct place relative to my eyes. That comes from practice, lots of practice.

I was shooting bowling pins the other day, over at Ledyard, and realized that of the five guns on the table - ALL of them had dots.
Browning Buckmark - Burris FastFire III
GP100 - Burris FastFire III
G34 - Trijicon SRO
G31 - Trijicon RMR
G41 - Trijicon SRO

The Burris FastFire's aren't horrendously expensive, but I think of them as more fragile than the Trijicons. The guns they're on are range toys - so I'm not concerned if they fail.

The Trijisons ARE horrendously expensive - but it's a "buy once - cry once" situation. The G31 is a carry gun for me, which is why it has the RMR on it. The two with SROs are for competition and pins. The SRO doesn't feel as "rugged" as the RMR - but it's wicked fast to acquire the dot through the glass.

I leave the Trijicons on all the time, swap the batteries out every six months, (it's on my calendar).

I still like shooting irons - but the reality is that I can shoot dots faster and more accurately.
 

meh

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Steady aim is just one factor. Trigger squeeze another. But then you have sight picture, and inconsistent sight picture of pistol iron sights at distance can be a HUGE factor in poor accuracy. And those factors are additive.

Also, here are some data aggregated gathered from force on force training. It doesn’t lie. Red dot hits are more likely to be incapacitating shots. I cropped out the rear view because neither had hits there and I couldn’t frame it on my screen well.
View attachment 661687
View attachment 661688

It's not that I doubt the point your making. I don't. Not at all. But as a scientist interpreting data that is purported to prove something, I need to ask how does this data deals with the variance in shooter skill. What makes us confident the RDS shooters wouldn't outperform the iron sight shooters on average even with irons?
 
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I went to red dots a year ago And never want to go back. Noticeably fast first shot and tighter groups at speed. I run a deltapoint pro by Leupold and a trijicon RMR. both are nice, but the deltapoint has a much larger window and easier to acquire the dot. A good pair of tritium backups help acquire the dot in lowlight conditions
 

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Mesatchornug

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but it's a "buy once - cry once" situation.
per firearm ;)

To be sure, I actually agree with everything you're saying. I just need to keep my back against the wall so I can stop spending money on anything for a bit. At least until I get back on budget.

Man I suck. I need to start sucking less.
same.
 

JRT

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He just did a video on that the other day. What he said was: WML good for aiming, very bad for searching. Use a flashlight for searching, not WML.
I'm not going to carry both and to this point my light use has thankfully been searching and not self defense. I had lost touch with Massad, thanks for tip, I found the video.
 

PappyM3

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It's not that I doubt the point your making. I don't. Not at all. But as a scientist interpreting data that is purported to prove something, I need to ask how does this data deals with the variance in shooter skill. What makes us confident the RDS shooters wouldn't outperform the iron sight shooters on average even with irons?
Very worthwhile consideration. This was not an exhaustive study and only included 24 test subjects, but the Sage Dynamics paper has other testing for hits/hit zone percentages from other studies too. Look to the bottom of the quote below for information on participants.


This particular force on force study, pardon the copy/paste reading:


MRDS use in Force on Force
In 2014, Sage Dynamics began an open-ended study of MRDS accuracy compared to iron sights during force on force courses. The testing is performed with a Simunitions FX Glock 17 conversion slide milled to accept a Trijicon RMR RM07 MRDS (6.5 MOA dot) as the only sighting system on the handgun. Generally, backup sights are advised on MRDS equipped handguns in the event that the optic fails, though for testing, Sage Dynamics wanted to remove the backup iron sights so that they could not be used unintentionally or otherwise on the MRDS handgun.
The MRDS performance is tracked against iron sight performance on an otherwise identical Simunitions FX Glock 17 conversion slide. For study purposes, a student will participate in 4 scenarios using either the MRDS FX gun, or the iron sight gun. MRDS experience is not required for those evaluated with MRDS use. Participants undergo the same scenarios regardless of which method of aiming is used.
The following data was gathered on 12 students using an MRDS FX gun and 12 students using traditional iron sights.
The 4 scenarios are designed to cover a wide range of potential use of force situations.
• Scenario A
Well lit room (photopic lighting), student will enter through a closed door with a holstered weapon. A Single roleplayer is positioned in view of the door, instructed to advance on the student with a prop weapon (large hammer) and use threatening language. Threat role player is instructed to not respond to verbal commands and to raise the hammer to strike. Threat role player’s starting position is no less than 12 feet from the door. Threat role player is instructed to
go to the ground/surrender if they take an incapacitating hit, or a strike to an area that may inadvertently remove their ability to otherwise attack (such as a hit to their weapon hand).
• Scenario B
Outdoor area, natural daytime lighting (photopic lighting). Three role players are positioned around the student exit door (student exits from inside to outside). Two role players are instructed to remain near the door and engage in a verbal argument. The third role player (scenario threat) is instructed to approach the arguing couple as soon as the student exits and brandish a firearm (simunitions FX handgun), threatening to kill one of the arguing role players. Threat role player is instructed to not respond to verbal commands and if/when the student draws their firearm, shoot one of the role players and then turn their weapon on the student. Threat role player is instructed to go to the ground/surrender if they take two incapacitating hits, or a strike to an area that may inadvertently remove their ability to otherwise attack (such as a hit to their weapon hand) or a combination thereof.
• Scenario C
Indoor area, dim lighting (mesopic lighting) Two threat role players are positioned in opposing corners of a center fed room (door in center of wall). One threat role player (threat 1) is facing the door, the other (threat 2) is placed opposite the laterality of the student (EG; if a student is left handed, the second threat role player is positioned in the right corner of the entry side of the room). Threat 1 is instructed to remain stationary until the student has entered, at which time they are to lift their shirt and display the butt of a firearm (simuntions FX firearm) while demanding the student’s wallet. Threat 2 is directed to move between the student and the exit door. Threat 2 is armed with a prop weapon (rubber knife). Threat 1 is instructed to advance on student to receive wallet and only draw their firearm if the student draws theirs. Threat 2 is instructed to only advance if student engages threat 1. Both threat role players are instructed to go to the ground/surrender if they take one incapacitating hit, or a strike to an area that may inadvertently remove their ability to otherwise attack (such as a hit to their weapon hand) or a combination thereof.
• Scenario D
Four role players are positioned in a hallway in dim lighting (low mesopic lighting) one role player is given a folding prop knife, the remaining three role players are unarmed. Upon student entry to the hallway, all 4 role players are instructed to verbally assault and threaten the student while crowding the student just outside of arms distance. The threat role player is instructed to get in front of the student’s direction of travel and produce the folding knife with a threat to cut the student while remining outside of arms distance. The role player is instructed to drop the knife as soon as the student draws their firearm and verbally say “I give Up.” The other three role players are instructed to flee when/if the student draws their firearm.
Continuity is maintained to the highest degree in the conduct of all 4 scenarios, with detailed instructions to the role players to not go off script or improvise content in any way. Given the live nature of force on force, it is impossible to ensure that each scenario plays out exactly as the others from student to student, but every effort is made to maintain consistency with role players, leaving the students actions as the only unpredictable aspect of the scenario.
Students are provided with their normal compliment of magazines (the number they generally carry) and use whatever their usual carry method is (IWB, OWB, etc).
Student background (LE/MIL or none) and years of shooting experience (rounded to the year) as well as experience with MRDS handguns (rounded to the year, if any) for those using MRDS in scenarios is also recorded.
Students are given no prior knowledge of the scenarios.
Shot placement on threat role players was recorded after each scenario using FX paint marks and role player identification of regions hit.

…..

…..
Differences in experience between student’s overall years shooting experience was not statistically significant, nor was background of formal firearms training in law enforcement or military a large factor differentiating either test group.
One telling factor between the MRDS test group and the iron sights group was that of the 12 students that used MRDS, only 5 students had prior MRDS experience, and of those 5, the least experience was less than 1 year and the most experience was 3 years.
 

Soundwave

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View attachment 661681

Though, it wouldn’t really bother me if I didn’t have cowitness sights. If the red dot failed and I’m at close distances, I can still get hits on target even if they’re not as precise into vital zones as I’d like. And if the red dot failed and I’m a some distance to the threat, well then I don’t take the shot and I get closer if I can. The latter would suck, but it’s a reasonable risk given the reliability and battery life of modern red dots.
What dot is that? I like the rear sight built in. I still can't find out what sights my G17 needs to 1/3 co-witness my 509t.
 

M1911

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For four runs:

View attachment 661685


And for the doubters of red dots - my SC gun is the same gun I shoot in USPSA/IDPA/pins/plates... It's a G34 with a Trijicon SRO. Took me a while to get used to it, now I just look at the target and the dot falls onto it. Lots and lots of dryfire practice to get to that point.


View attachment 661684
I just got an SRO earlier this summer. Nice big window.
 

paul73

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What dot is that? I like the rear sight built in. I still can't find out what sights my G17 needs to 1/3 co-witness my 509t.
looks like a holosun 407k. which may actually work as a good enough compromise. tech goes forward, it seems, i did not know they started making such models with built-in sights. it is not movable horizontally, though, may be a bit of an issue on a glock.

i somehow missed holosuns completely, may need to check them out.
 

PappyM3

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What dot is that? I like the rear sight built in. I still can't find out what sights my G17 needs to 1/3 co-witness my 509t.
I think 407k. 6 MOA dot. It’s the biggest dot I’ve used, but it works for a concealed carry gun.

Their new EPS Carry (only the Carry variant) has a built in iron sight too. It’s like a scaled down 509t. But I have no experience with the EPS.

Note that the milling should to be a specific height for the built in rear to be functional, or close to that height. I didn’t know if mine would, but I confirmed by lining up my irons and the dot is bisected by the front post. Good for me!
 
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PappyM3

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i somehow missed holosuns completely, may need to check them out.
Some have had issues with their 509t (closed emitter), but I haven’t. Note that Holosun don’t work well with night vision. But if that’s not a factor, they are good in my experience. RMR is still preferred as a duty optic, but the Holosuns are acceptable to me for civilian use. As long as the optic passes the Sage dynamics abuse testing he posts on YouTube. (He seems like a tool, but does the most repeatable/comparable optic testing).
 

paul73

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Some have had issues with their 509t (closed emitter), but I haven’t. Note that Holosun don’t work well with night vision. But if that’s not a factor, they are good in my experience. RMR is still preferred as a duty optic, but the Holosuns are acceptable to me for civilian use. As long as the optic passes the Sage dynamics abuse testing he posts on YouTube. (He seems like a tool, but does the most repeatable/comparable optic testing).
it is a bit odd - just looked at the amazon, i recall now the solar one - the 407C, but it has no embedded rear sights. the one you mentioned 407K-X2 - see it too, at a nice somewhat price of $225 on amazon, 6MOA dot, but, no solar. hmm.

what mount plate do you have on your 22/45 ruger - i get it is there instead of the rail, and RDS sits right there low enough, right?
 

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1) not if you have old eyes like mine.
2) not all defensive encounters happen within 15 yards.
They do get harder to justify at further distances.

Get inside, lock the door. Get in your car and lock the door, drive off. Strip down to nekkid, poop a line in the sand. Most of those are better than drawing a firearm at 15 yards. Most thugs aren't going to break cover until they are danger close. You aren't a cop. Almost every state has a de-escalate clause to the castle doctrine. It's not a blanket case to just:

1663178662686.png
 
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