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Red dot on a carry pistol - worth it to mill a slide or nah?

M1911 said:
Nah. Brought to you by Aaron Cowan. Watch some of his videos. He seems to be on the spectrum, but he does some extensive testing and abuse of red dots, like cycling the slide by smashing the red dot agains a post.
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From what I hear, both him and his followers can have a bit of a cult vibe at his classes. But, he seems to have the best and most impartial information on optic durability and MRD usage.
 
eboos said:
When saying refresh rate are you talking about “shake awake”? I have no experience with that. The SCS is always on. Currently the SCS is Glock MOS exclusive. Other cuts may come in the future.View attachment 661536
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do you find this model to be working fine so far? see the first and last reviews there. i was just looking over it, as i have DPP on my MOS G34 slide now. i could move it to ruger and put holosun on the g34 but - now dunno if it is worth it.

www.eurooptic.com

Holosun SCS-MOS Multi-Reticle 32MOA Green Circle & 2MOA Dot MOS Pistol Cut Solar-Charging Reflex Sight SCS-M-GR

FREE SHIPPING on Holosun SCS-MOS Multi-Reticle 32MOA Green Circle & 2MOA Dot MOS Pistol Cut Solar-Charging Reflex Sight SCS-M-GR
www.eurooptic.com www.eurooptic.com

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RA May 27, 2022
Emitter diode shifted within the housing and lost focus within one mag on a G17, optic is INOP within 5 minutes of install.

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robert August 12, 2022
The site had a critical fallure after the first 100-150 rounds of standard pressure 115gr 9mm FMJ rounds were put through it. The reticle became severely distorted, misaligned and unusable. The emitter was clean, new battery installed. The scs mos was installed exactly zper the instructions in the user manual. I was really looking forward to using the SCS Mounted onto my primary daily carry. I’m not sure what Holosun is going to do about it, I just submitted the online warranty for today. I do know that I will not be able to trust a Holosun SCS for daily carry duty. I wish I would have gone with the Trijicon RMR instead. Very unfortunate…
 
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paul73 said:
you are getting to what i dislike the most. a distraction. with irons when it is critical - you draw and plant a shot. with a dot - you draw and then cannot stop but think, hmm, where is my dot there? ohh, here it is. ok. bang.
for most with a well practiced draw it means that your off shot with irons could have been 5-7 inches lower/higher before you adjusted it, but usually with not that much of the horizontal off. matters not on a human sized target at 15yds. with a dot - it may end up to be a no shot, as you will be thinking of where did the dot go. and, well, may be already dead by that time.

i never argue with facts - and it is a fact that once you got on a dot - the next target acquisition speed is much faster, it is way more accurate, all the good things.
if you carry for a duty, gun is always warm and clean - and check the status of the device religiously - why not.

but if one carries sporadically, gun sits in the dark safe with dot left 'always on' always - it is not going to end well, it is only logic. it will eventually either discharge mid-day, or will be forgotten to be turned off/on. but i think no matter what i say here the other side is on the stubborn mode now, so, to each their own.
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The RMR battery will last multiple years when left on all the time. The same is true for Holosun. Put a reminder in your calendar on repeat, so that you replace it once per year. It won’t run out of power during that time. They are designed to be left on all the time. I replace the batteries in all of my optics in August, so I just did that for this year. They are good to go until next year.

I was taught by Ayoob at LFI that each time I pick up my carry gun to holster at the start of the day, that I should check that there is a round in the chamber and that each magazine is full. I do that every single time. I know there is a round in the chamber and the mags are full because they were full when I unholstered yesterday and I haven’t messed with it. But I still check every day.

Now that I have a red dot, I also look at the dot to make sure that the dot is visible and that the glass is clean. It’s not hard. It doesn’t take more than a second or two to check the dot. I’m not the most disciplined guy, but even I can manage this.

The chance of the dot failing between the time that I checked it in the morning and sometime later that day during a defensive encounter is slim. But if that does happen, I’ve got backup iron sights.
 
Quite_Exasperated said:
I would bet most defensive encounters are less than 7 yards (in a convenience store, getting mugged or car jacked, intruder in your home). At that distance, on a man sized object, carrying a carry-size gun (<4” barrel; if you’re rockin‘ a 5” 1911 on a daily basis my hat’s off to you), in a high stress situation that most do not have adequate training or practice for, elevated heart rate, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, and the fact that most shooters way over-estimate their abilities (oh yeah? Well I can shoot the balls of an ant at 50 yards with my 9mm gack), having to make split second decisions about how, when, and if, to engage, planning a route to cover or concealment, trying to create space between you and the attacker to give you time to draw your gun, worrying about bystanders, disengaging safeties if you have one, covering the target with the front of the gun is about the most you’ll likely get no matter how many “save the day“ 50 yard shot fantasies one might have.
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None of these are valid reasons to not carry a gun with an optic on it. Most speed limits in the US are 65mph do you drive a car that tops out at 65?

The 7 yard average shooting thing is quite frankly something that people who suck at shooting past 7 yards say. It needs to die. I cant wait for that recent indiana shooting to bring the "average" statistic up to 10yds or whatever and watch the sweat beads build on all the point shooter bros foreheads.

Also the "oh well im just your average guy, im carrying to stop myself from getting mugged" thing needs to go, nah man, you have invested interest in this enough to join a forum and discuss this shit daily, you're already above average, why limit your capabilities based on averages? f*** that, i want to train for distance shooting so when i need to ive got subconscious competence that will enable me to get hits at 25-50 in high stress situations instead of saying "oh well statistically ill never have to shoot past 7 so f*** it, guess ill die." This mindset needs adjustment. A 20 year old, reacting to a situation, just took out a dude with a rifle with a g19 from 40yds out recently, that kid should be the average. Proper training and use with RDS will make everyone better, hence upping the average.
 
Quite_Exasperated said:
Just one more thing to snag as the gun leaves holster. I assume daily carry you’ve got a snug IWB or OWB on the strong side under some layer of clothing and are not carrying Han Solo style..
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Carrying in a quality holster solves this. Moot point.

Idk what han solo style is but yes i carry and have trained combatives with this setup AIWB daily in a Tenicor Malus Sol holster with Discreet carry concepts clips.
 
M1911 said:
It certainly has a learning curve. I can say that for some months after I first got one, I was doing the dot lasso game. It's all down to training -- lots and lots of dryfire draws to a target in the basement. If you're done not willing to do that, if you're not willing to change the battery once a year, if you're not willing to check that the dot is working and the glass is clean, then yes, it isn't for you. They are also expensive, so that's an issue as well. Advantages and disadvantages.

I suspect that it might be easier for new shooters to adapt to a red dot than for us troglodytes who have been shooting irons for decades.
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I struggled at first and thought about giving up on dots early on myself. The way to overcome that is slow shooting B8s for score and comparing your results. The alignment and all the other alien things about shooting an rds will all come with repetition, but the first, pretty much immediate noticeable improvement anyone will see when they first switch is accuracy.

I honestly think new shooters nowadays should start on dot guns.
 
paul73 said:
you are getting to what i dislike the most. a distraction. with irons when it is critical - you draw and plant a shot. with a dot - you draw and then cannot stop but think, hmm, where is my dot there? ohh, here it is. ok. bang.
for most with a well practiced draw it means that your off shot with irons could have been 5-7 inches lower/higher before you adjusted it, but usually with not that much of the horizontal off. matters not on a human sized target at 15yds. with a dot - it may end up to be a no shot, as you will be thinking of where did the dot go. and, well, may be already dead by that time.

i never argue with facts - and it is a fact that once you got on a dot - the next target acquisition speed is much faster, it is way more accurate, all the good things.
if you carry for a duty, gun is always warm and clean - and check the status of the device religiously - why not.

but if one carries sporadically, gun sits in the dark safe with dot left 'always on' always - it is not going to end well, it is only logic. it will eventually either discharge mid-day, or will be forgotten to be turned off/on. but i think no matter what i say here the other side is on the stubborn mode now, so, to each their own.
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With that thinking wouldn't iron sights be distracting? You still have to bring the gun up and line up the sights etc. As long as you practice presentation as people have said the dot should always be seen. No lining up with anything but the target. I will admit that with my G17 grip angle it doesn't point as natural to me so it still takes some getting used to.
 
Soundwave said:
With that thinking wouldn't iron sights be distracting? You still have to bring the gun up and line up the sights etc. As long as you practice presentation as people have said the dot should always be seen. No lining up with anything but the target. I will admit that with my G17 grip angle it doesn't point as natural to me so it still takes some getting used to.
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I’d argue it is less distracting. With iron sights, you have to deal with three different focal planes — the target, your rear sight, and your front sight. Your focus has to rapidly shift between all three.

With a red dot, you focus on the target and the dot appears. So you never have to change focus and you are more aware of what the target is doing.

One way to ensure that you are focusing on the target while training is to use an occluded dot. You can put a plaster on the downrange side of the optic, so that you can’t see through it. I have a plastic cover for my SRO and I’ve cut away the up range side of it. Your dominant eye will see the dot. Your support eye will see the target. Your brain will superimpose the two.
 
AllaSnackbah said:
I honestly think new shooters nowadays should start on dot guns.
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I think new shooters have issues finding the dot, it is much easier to "find" irons. It takes longer with a dot as they have no natural reference point. But really, everyone can line up irons or a dot on a target. It isn't the problem. Keeping it there until the shot breaks is the problem
 
I started with optics so I’m a little biased, but it’s so awesome that I don’t see why anyone would not use one. It’s faster, more accurate, adds negligible bulk, and in the unlikely event where the dot fails, you still have backup iron sights. The only downside for me is that the optic prints a little when I wear fitted shirts, but not enough to make a difference. Just don’t wear tight clothing when carrying.

I have no issues with my Holosun SCS so far. Only downside is that MOS sucks, and there’s a small .008 inch gap in the rear due to glock’s tolerance. But it’s not the optic’s fault, the MOS plates also have this gap.
 
I really hadn't given much thought to an optic on an EDC before this thread. Sure, I know about them and have seen them but my eyesight is fine as is my shooting w/ iron sights. I'm generally in the shots inside 10 yards for defensive civilian concealed carry camp so it hasn't really been a priority for me. I use dots on rifles and like them a lot. My initial thoughts are that for the average civilian CCW defensive situation they wouldn't add much value to me personally to justify the expense/training/things that could . That being said, I have seen enough compelling arguments (on both sides) to make me think about looking into it further.

Does anyone know if the kid in the mall used an optic? I'd say that situation is such an outlier that criticizing anyone who doesn't prepare for it or wouldn't be comfortable doing it is simply wrong. Yeah, I can shoot pistol proficiently at 25 & 50 yards but not everyone can (most people can't) and that doesn't mean they shouldn't carry.
 
Buck F said:
I really hadn't given much thought to an optic on an EDC before this thread. Sure, I know about them and have seen them but my eyesight is fine as is my shooting w/ iron sights. I'm generally in the shots inside 10 yards for defensive civilian concealed carry camp so it hasn't really been a priority for me. I use dots on rifles and like them a lot. My initial thoughts are that for the average civilian CCW defensive situation they wouldn't add much value to me personally to justify the expense/training/things that could . That being said, I have seen enough compelling arguments (on both sides) to make me think about looking into it further.

Does anyone know if the kid in the mall used an optic? I'd say that situation is such an outlier that criticizing anyone who doesn't prepare for it or wouldn't be comfortable doing it is simply wrong. Yeah, I can shoot pistol proficiently at 25 & 50 yards but not everyone can (most people can't) and that doesn't mean they shouldn't carry.
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Nobody here is arguing that if you cant pop a dudes grape at 40 with 80% accuracy that you shouldn't carry. But we do have people who say you shouldnt even consider such a shot even in an emergency and for that reason putting an optic on your ccw that will improve your accuracy at all ranges is a bad idea. That mindset is fundamentally flawed.
 
I stopped reading comments after the first two pages. There is so much goddamn boomer-derp being regurgitated my head is still spinning.
Put a dot on your carry gun if you want, I do. It's great.
I also regularly carry a S&W J-frame with non-existant-sights so there is a time and place for everything.
I shoot faster and more accurately with a red dot. Mileage may vary. You do you.
Change the battery once a year, use quality fasteners, the right threadlocker and torque to spec and you wont get kiltinthestreets.
Real life is open division and you dont know what the fight will be. Use every advantage you can to win, cheat, dont die, blah blah blah...
 
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Concealed carry is a personal thing. Age has little to do with it and those bashing boomers or millennials over it are just being dicks. Two of the guys that have weighed in against it or are lukewarm about it who’s opinion I respect immensely are millennials. There are others who have made valid points on both sides who’s ages I don’t know so I don’t make stupid assumptions. When I see shit like boomer this or millennial that I tune the rest out because at that point you invalidated anything intelligent you may have said.

Make your f’n point and leave the generational garbage out of it, there are plenty of dicks in every generation and they’re usually the ones who think they’re making their point by bashing the other.
 
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Buck F said:
Concealed carry is a personal thing. Age has little to do with it and those bashing boomers or millennials over it are just being dicks. Two of the guys that have weighed in against it or are lukewarm about it who’s opinion I respect immensely are millennials. There are others who have made valid points on both sides who’s ages I don’t know so I don’t make stupid assumptions. When I see shit like boomer this or millennial that I tune the rest out because at that point you invalidated anything intelligent you may have said.

Make your f’n point and leave the generational garbage out of it, there are plenty of dicks in every generation and they’re usually the ones who think they’re making their point by bashing the other.
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Don’t be so sensitive, people are so soft these days, it’s 90% busting balls. Nobody should be offended.
 
Yeah, I've just got to jump into this sh!tshow of a thread now.

1. I'm Gen X and under 50, so neither a millennial nor boomer. Why's that matter? Not sure.

2. My eyes just started to go such that I probably need bifocals or reading glasses. As far as shooting goes, the front post is getting difficult to focus on. The red dot makes that a non-issue.

3. I have a Trijicon RMR on my G17 along with co-witnessed suppressor-height sights. My EDC are either a G19 or HK45C, neither with an RMR.

4. Why have an RMR on my G17? To practice with and get better with the red dot. I have BUIS on all my rifles, but run red dots or holos as the primary optic unless it has a scope. Why not train up on a red dot pistol and get all the benefits of red dot on a platform that is more difficult to master/use.

5. Will I convert all my handguns to have dots? Nope. One, if my wife or kids need to use one, they haven't trained pistol with a dot. They have shot with irons. Second, too expensive. I'll either have to replace slides or have slides milled and I just don't see the need. I have a perfectly capable G17 with one when I feel like using it. I'd rather spend the money on another pistol or rifle. Then there is the whole holster thing? I've got OWB for all my handguns and IWB for my carry guns. Last thing I want to do is buy a bunch more holsters to handle a dot on all of them.

6. Will I run a dot on my EDC eventually? Yes. As I said above, I'm just starting to deal with my eyes going. As they get worse, I'll need the dot on my EDC. What I will probably do is pick up another G19 MOS and mount another Trijicon RMR to that. Then I have options as far as CC goes.

I agree with everyone that has said it is an adjustment to find the dot properly. It takes practice, hence why I made the decision to start working on it. You don't have to put it on everything. Just make sure you practice with and without it. Perfect setup is cowitnessed irons so you can practice with both.

For those who talk about being fast, accurate, etc with a dot, that's cool. I agree with the folks here that if you aren't shooting all the time, you're likely just an average shooter. I don't have the time to shoot as much as I would like. That may change next year or once we move from MA, but for now that is reality. I also don't particularly like handguns as weapons. They are secondary... a means of fighting your way to your rifle. I spent very little time in the service with a handgun and the reality is they are ineffective in modern combat as anything other than a backup or for doing the silent nasty when suppressed, given the common usage of soft body armor and helmets defeating pistol rounds.

Yeah, yeah, we CCW with pistols. Sure, and that's why we should practice with them. I just don't forget that my handgun is secondary to my rifle when it comes to home defense. The reality is anyone could own soft armor today. Hell, I was looking at armor inserts for backpacks for my kids. That mall shooter is lucky the dude he shot wasn't wearing body armor else he would have been lit up by that dude's rifle.

Anyway, this thread was all over the place. To those posting against dots on handguns, I recommend you set one handgun up with it. Doesn't have to be your EDC. For those who say dots are the only way to go, I'd agree to a point. If you have an unlimited budget for this particular hobby or absolutely love pistol shooting or have eyes so bad you just can't see the damn front post anymore. For the rest of us with competing interests for our fun budget or aren't a boomer with bad eyes, I'd say nope.

Now for some gun porn:
G17_1.jpg

G17_2.jpg
 
You don’t need to buy a whole new Glock 19. I would argue that the MOS system kinda sucks. Instead, you can just buy a new RDO milled slide, safety plunger and spring, extractor, extractor plunger assembly, striker, and slide cover plate. When you want to convert from red dot to irons (or vice versa), just field strip and move the barrel and recoil spring to the other slide.
 
M1911 said:
You don’t need to buy a whole new Glock 19. I would argue that the MOS system kinda sucks. Instead, you can just buy a new RDO milled slide, safety plunger and spring, extractor, extractor plunger assembly, striker, and slide cover plate. When you want to convert from red dot to irons (or vice versa), just field strip and move the barrel and recoil spring to the other slide.
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Great idea. I may still buy another G19. My EDC is a Gen 3 I've had for what seems like forever. I won't get rid of it, but I could see picking up a Gen 4 or 5. I'll keep that in mind if I don't get an MOS variant. I also find I'm now looking more closely at HK's, and especially HK compacts as I love my HK45C. Whatever I end up with next for an EDC will be set up for a dot or I will have the slide modified.

*Edit* Damn it. I wish I never posted in this damn thread... now M1911 has me looking at Brownells and some other places for G19 slides. LOL.
 
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