Red Dots… are they total bs on a compact?

[M1911]

One consideration with red dots is that they don't work for folks with astigmatism, or amblyopia.
Astigmatism makes red dots look blurry. It can be corrected/fixed with lenses/glasses but if your vision is 20/20 and you have astigmatism, chances are you're not even aware of it.
Amblyopia is condition where one eye is slower to focus than the other. Extreme case of amblyopia is called "lazy eye". This condition makes it difficult to find the dot with both eyes open and cannot be corrected with glasses. The good news is that you can just use the one eye closed approach. Also, mild cases of amblyopia can be corrected by regular training. I have amblyopia and it took me a good 6 months(I'm old) of training before I could shoot red dot both eyes open without double vision.

That depends upon the extent of your astigmatism. I've got astigmatism but I can still use red dots.

 

[allen-1]

One consideration with red dots is that they don't work for folks with astigmatism, or amblyopia.
Astigmatism makes red dots look blurry. It can be corrected/fixed with lenses/glasses but if your vision is 20/20 and you have astigmatism, chances are you're not even aware of it.
Amblyopia is condition where one eye is slower to focus than the other. Extreme case of amblyopia is called "lazy eye". This condition makes it difficult to find the dot with both eyes open and cannot be corrected with glasses. The good news is that you can just use the one eye closed approach. Also, mild cases of amblyopia can be corrected by regular training. I have amblyopia and it took me a good 6 months(I'm old) of training before I could shoot red dot both eyes open without double vision.

I have astigmatisms in both eyes. I wear corrective lenses, (progressive bi-focals). My primary comp gun is a G34 with a Trijicon SRO. I don't have any problems finding the dot, seeing the target, putting the dot on the target and hitting it. A good eye doctor, a proper exam and a proper prescription all make this happen.

If your dot is blurry, try another dot. If it's blurry too - go see an eye doctor.

 

[Supermoto]

not "almost", that's exactly what happens.

Or to put it another way, it's easier to see the smaller dot dancing around the target.

I've been using a dot now for a while. Started using one about 8 or 10 years ago to shoot bowling pins with; moved to CarryOptics in IDPA/USPSA/SC the last couple of years. If you're a bullseye shooter and focusing on that perfect shot - you're going to be too slow for any action pistol sports. But - you need to get wobble contained within the target area.

Best way to stop the wobble is to actively move the gun. Instead of trying to hold the dot on target. Bring the dot up to the target and break the shot when it gets there. Then start working on moving the dot up faster and faster.

 

[M1911]

I was focused on the dot- I need to properly zero it and try again.

The problem isn't the zero. Shoot the gun from a bench, rested on a bag. Put a black paster on the target so that you have a clear point of aim. Aim at that paster. DO NOT CHANGE YOUR POINT OF AIM IF THE SHOTS DON'T HIT THE PASTER. Do this at a close range, say 10 yards. You should be able to get a good group, even though the group might not be centered on the paster.

If you don't get a good group, the possibilities are:

1. Your red dot is broken.
2. Your red dot isn't properly mounted.
3. Your marksmanship is the problem.

 

[Supermoto]

Yeah, that's never worked for me.

Do you think it would take you more practice to shoot with a target focus with iron, same as you do with a dot. Or learn a perfect index to make a laser useful? I'm guessing if you shoot a dot enough, you won't even realize you are using a target focus with irons

 

[M1911]

Do you think it would take you more practice to shoot with a target focus with iron, same as you do with a dot. Or learn a perfect index to make a laser useful? I'm guessing if you shoot a dot enough, you won't even realize you are using a target focus with irons

I mostly shoot a Glock these days, and it doesn't really match my natural point of aim.

 

[Supermoto]

I mostly shoot a Glock these days, and it doesn't really match my natural point of aim.

That really kills being able to shoot fast and accurately.

 

[LakeTrout]

One consideration with red dots is that they don't work for folks with astigmatism, or amblyopia.

This is simply not true when put that simply.

Red dots look very blurry to me. Within 50 yards, its no big deal. In fact, I like red dots for 100 and in unless I am shooting for real precision. I wouldn't be able to bullseye shoot with it, but for defensive purposes, its fine. Thats not my problem at all with red dots. Having it a bit blurry actualy helps me put the dot on target easier. Sure, someone can go with a larger dot if thats what they want. But some people with astigmatism can also go with a smaller dot to help reduce the size of the blur or halo that they might get.

It really depends on the individual, their eyes, and what type of shooting they intend to do with it. And it is worthwhile to try each option and not rely on the claim that this type of optic simply won't work for someone with XYZ.

 

[paul73]

This is simply not true when put that simply.

Red dots look very blurry to me. Within 50 yards, its no big deal. In fact, I like red dots for 100 and in unless I am shooting for real precision. I wouldn't be able to bullseye shoot with it, but for defensive purposes, its fine. Thats not my problem at all with red dots. Having it a bit blurry actualy helps me put the dot on target easier. Sure, someone can go with a larger dot if thats what they want. But some people with astigmatism can also go with a smaller dot to help reduce the size of the blur or halo that they might get.

It really depends on the individual, their eyes, and what type of shooting they intend to do with it. And it is worthwhile to try each option and not rely on the claim that this type of optic simply won't work for someone with XYZ.

nope.

it is simply because none of you are good shots, that`s what.

 

[allen-1]

Best way to stop the wobble is to actively move the gun. Instead of trying to hold the dot on target. Bring the dot up to the target and break the shot when it gets there. Then start working on moving the dot up faster and faster.

Thank you.

 

[allen-1]

I mostly shoot a Glock these days, and it doesn't really match my natural point of aim.

If you like the Glock platform, but don't like the grip angle, take a look at Lone Wolf's "Timberwolf" frame.

Edited to tag @M1911

 

[paul73]

Thank you.

so, now you finally do know how to shoot? or should we post here some youtube video, to show how good shots do that and where is the trigger on the gun?



ok, i am stopping now. it was all fun, but, enough is enough.

 

[allen-1]

so, now you finally do know how to shoot? or should we post here some youtube video, to show how good shots do that and where is the trigger on the gun?



ok, i am stopping now. it was all fun, but, enough is enough.

I do very well at Steel Challenge, less well at IDPA and USPSA - all using the same platform. When I shoot Steel Challenge, I'm focused on making very fast transitions and shooting as soon as I have the dot on the steel. What @Supermoto has just brought to my attention is that I need to do the same when I'm shooting IDPA and USPSA - I tend to "aim" more than I really need to. I also need to continue to work on my stage movement - but I already knew that.

 

[maltc]

The problem isn't the zero. Shoot the gun from a bench, rested on a bag. Put a black paster on the target so that you have a clear point of aim. Aim at that paster. DO NOT CHANGE YOUR POINT OF AIM IF THE SHOTS DON'T HIT THE PASTER. Do this at a close range, say 10 yards. You should be able to get a good group, even though the group might not be centered on the paster.

If you don't get a good group, the possibilities are:

1. Your red dot is broken.
2. Your red dot isn't properly mounted.
3. Your marksmanship is the problem.

Will do. And my marksmanship with irons is excellent. With the rds not so much. Will take your advice and try again.

 

[Supermoto]

I also need to continue to work on my stage movement - but I already knew that.

Thread drift..but, think about moving sooner and less. Don't use a solid 2 foot stance unless absolutely necessary for difficult shot. Starting and stopping takes a lot of time and each step is .2s. Count your step.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

That depends upon the extent of your astigmatism. I've got astigmatism but I can still use red dots.

Without glasses?

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

I mostly shoot a Glock these days, and it doesn't really match my natural point of aim.

If the dot is correctly zerod, AND your are not "fishing" when you aim, you will not have ANY difference in the aim.
Most people, when trying to speedrun the aiming process, will bring the front sight on target by pointing the barrel up just a tiny bit with the rear sight sort up "bringing up the rear". From the side it looks like fishing motion. This is actually inefficient and cannot be corrected easily, unless... Unless you switch to a red dot! Red dot does not let you "cheat" on how you bring the gun into line of sight. A few hundred reps with a reddot and you will find that your draw/aim/fire time will improve even with iron sights. No more "fishing"!

 

[M1911]

If the dot is correctly zerod, AND your are not "fishing" when you aim, you will not have ANY difference in the aim.
Most people, when trying to speedrun the aiming process, will bring the front sight on target by pointing the barrel up just a tiny bit with the rear sight sort up "bringing up the rear". From the side it looks like fishing motion. This is actually inefficient and cannot be corrected easily, unless... Unless you switch to a red dot! Red dot does not let you "cheat" on how you bring the gun into line of sight. A few hundred reps with a reddot and you will find that your draw/aim/fire time will improve even with iron sights. No more "fishing"!

Oh FFS.

The discussion was iron sights vs red dots. I can’t see the irons anymore. I can see the red dot. I’ve practiced enough that I don’t fish for the dot, Go give your advice to a red dot noob.

Since I can’t see the iron sights, Supermoto’s suggestion to just point shoot relies more heavily on natural point of aim. The Glock’s unnatural grip angle is much less of an issue for me when using a red dot, which I can see.

 

[M1911]

Without glasses?

I’m nearsighted. My correction is -14. I don’t do anything without glasses or contacts. if you were across the room and I wasn’t wearing a correction then I couldn’t see your head. No, I’m not saying that I couldn’t recognize your face; I’m saying that I couldn’t SEE your head.

My contacts don’t give me a great correct for my astigmatism, but I can still use a red dot.

The assertion was made that if you have astigmatism you can’t use a red dot. That assertion is exaggerated. Some folks with astigmatism may not be able to use a red dot, but other folks like myself with astigmatism can use a red dot.

 

[Supermoto]

I’m nearsighted. My correction is -14. I don’t do anything without glasses or contacts. if you were across the room and I wasn’t wearing a correction then I could see your head. No, I’m not saying that I could recognize your face; I’m saying that I wouldn’t SEE your head.

My contacts don’t give me a great correct for my astigmatism, but I can still use a red dot.

The assertion was made that if you have astigmatism you can’t use a red dot. That assertion is exaggerated. Some folks with astigmatism may not be able to use a red dot, but other folks like myself with astigmatism can use a red dot.

 

[paul73]

The Glock’s unnatural grip angle

hmm. most target pistols have even more aggressive grip angle, it does not make them any less effective.
it is all built based on the angle of your palm if you point an index finger at anything with the extended arm - look at your hand at this moment.

most of my youth i was taught and trained to shoot one handed, really, and later at bi-annual qualifications it was allowed to use other hand for support only, usually with an open palm of left hand under the gun.
instructors did not want us to grab it tactical style like here in states most teach to handle it. you were supposed to be proficient within 50 meters shooting off hand one hand.

 

[M1911]

hmm. most target pistols have even more aggressive grip angle, it does not make them any less effective.
it is all built based on the angle of your palm if you point an index finger at anything with the extended arm - look at your hand at this moment.

1911s simply point more naturally to me. Glocks point high. Most guns grip angle is closer to a 1911 than a Glock.

 

[paul73]

1911s simply point more naturally to me. Glocks point high. Most guns grip angle is closer to a 1911 than a Glock.

i meant something like that. looks quite a bit more than a 1911 to me.
i do not say that i do not prefer the 1911 angle - the 22/45 ruger is the one, standard mk4 is more like below and i do like 22/45 better now, somewhat.

from same article - damn, i want this thing now. may not even be custom fit for my hand:

 

[mac1911]

Let me preface this saying I may have not properly zeroed it… however:

Recently picked up a sig 229. I tried with close to 100 rounds to zero it in… Around 90 rounds at 20 feet things were finally looking accurate.

Took it out to the steel targets and couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn (or plate). Btw I am a very good shot with normal sights and can hit up to 100 yards with reasonable ease.

Are RDS’s possible of point- shoot- hit target?

I’ll probably go back to the irons- Maybe a lazer would be fun.

It’s a holosun 407k properly attached.

Appreciate your insight.

what is looking accurate at 20 ft, more specific and how far where the plates. At 20 feet what was the target , aim point, groups. At the steel what size steel , what distance, aim point

 

[M1911]

i meant something like that. looks quite a bit more than a 1911 to me.
i do not say that i do not prefer the 1911 angle - the 22/45 ruger is the one, standard mk4 is more like below and i do like 22/45 better now, somewhat.

That’s not “most guns”.

 

[paul73]

That’s not “most guns”.

we ain`t 'most shooters'.

 

[mac1911]

Lasers are a waste of money in my opinion. I saw one guy using one in USPSA, it was funny AF, dude was super slow trying to get the laser on target.

When you sight it in, how far are you sighting it in?
Are you holding the gun the same way every time?

Sight it in close at like 10 yards. Then move the target further out 5 yards until you reach your desired distance.

It shouldn't take 90 rounds to sight in a handgun. 10 rounds max.

After that, if you can't hit plates and the dot is properly mounted, it is not the dot or the gun, it is the shooter.

zero your pistol for point blank range. Near zero and far zero . not to hard to figure out. then just hold center and let them rip. of course much better if you stay with the same ammo ballistics

example take good old 45 acp 230 fmj BC .200 vel 850 ish holding on a 8" target @ 10 yards center mass if you center of your group or shots are about 1-1.5" high you "should be able to hit a 10" plate with a center hold from 2 - 80 yards with in reason ....... now actually holding on the 8" plate center when the trigger is pulled is the key....

of course this is hits on target "accuracy" not trying to hit a X ring at any distance

 

[mac1911]

Best way to stop the wobble is to actively move the gun. Instead of trying to hold the dot on target. Bring the dot up to the target and break the shot when it gets there. Then start working on moving the dot up faster and faster.

the longer you hold the more you wobble

 

[maltc]

what is looking accurate at 20 ft, more specific and how far where the plates. At 20 feet what was the target , aim point, groups. At the steel what size steel , what distance, aim point

I attempted to zero at 20 feet on paper at indoor. Outdoor steel were 25-75 ft. Even missed the 25 ft steel (most 8 inch)

 

[allen-1]

Dot; no dot.

Back and forth for a couple hundred rounds.