Redding FL Sizer vs Type S Neck vs Competition Neck dies

paul73

NES Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2020
Messages
15,528
Likes
18,462
Location
MA
Feedback: 6 / 0 / 0
Hi,

I still circulate through options on what to proceed with and lack general understanding of how exactly to deal with it.
Based on what i did read so far, opinions do really split on the factual benefits of choosing a particular method/die.
a usual FL sizer goes for $47, Type S bushing neck sizer die is at $72 something, competition bushing is $148. The latter seems to have a micrometer on top - for what purpose i actually fail to understand fully, as it is a bushing sizer that is supposed to be setup once and locked in, but, ok. May be there is some important function to it there.
A bushing for it would be an another $30 or so.
Reviews are also not helping much, a lot of people seem to both like and bash both type S and competition dies.

So, as the theory goes that if - and for me it is a big if - if you fire same brass from a same dedicated gun only, then it fireforms into ideal shape for that chamber and you should benefit from doing a neck sizing only, not touching the body. to what degree it actually holds true? is it something that is worth to be obsessing about :) - or will a usual full length sizer be more than adequate with no loss of accuracy?
A lot of folks seem to be saying they do a full body as they saw no real benefits from doing a neck sizing only and FL sizing is safer and does all the same, pretty much.

Is there anybody here who went to those type s or competition dies for precision rounds and saw an actual difference worth the, what, a $140 premium above regular FL sizer die?

Dies i spoke of are these, i look at 6.5CM versions only:

 
Last edited:
Hi,

I still circulate through options on what to proceed with and lack general understanding of how exactly to deal with it.
Based on what i did read so far, opinions to really split on the factual benefits of choosing a particular die.
a usual FL sizer goes for $47, Type S bushing neck sizer die is at $72 something, competition bushing is $148. The latter seems to have a micrometer on top - for what purpose i actually fail to understand fully, as it is a bushing sizer that is supposed to be setup once and locked in, but, ok. May be there is some important function to it there.
A bushing for it would be an another $30 or so.
Reviews are also not helping much, a lot of people seem to both like and bash both type S and competition dies.

So, as the theory goes that if - and for me it is a big if - if you fire same brass from a same dedicated gun only, then it fireforms into ideal shape for that chamber and you should benefit from doing a neck sizing only, not touching the body. to what degree it actually holds true? is it something that is worth to be obsessing about :) - or will a usual full length sizer be more than adequate with no loss of accuracy?

Is there anybody here who went to those type s or competition dies for precision rounds and saw an actual difference worth the, what, a $140 premium above regular FL sizer die?

Dies i spoke of are these, i look at 6.5CM versions only:

I'm going to guess that this will be an inadequate response right from the "get go". I have 3 precision rifles in the same chambering (.308 Win) that I reload for. That precluded me from relying on fire formed/neck sized processing simply because I'm too lazy to set up three different sizing dies to match the three rifles (and keep brass segregated for each rifle after that). I did buy into the bushing die propaganda in terms of minimizing the working of the brass. So, I use a type S full length sizing die with the expander button removed. I opted for a bushing that sized ~3 thousandths less than measured neck width of my reloaded rounds, and then added a mandrel expanding die that is 2 thousandths under bullet diameter. I've actually measured minimal spring-back from these expected dimensions after the sizing and expanding steps (separately). Concentricity of the rounds have ended up with less than 1 thousandth runout, and I noted better ES and groups (in my reloads and my rifles) with the ~ 2 thousandths neck tension when compared to 1 thousandth neck tension (which was my initial set-up using a different mandrel).

As to the difference between the "standard" type S and the competition type S die, the micrometer acts to limit the upward travel of the bushing in the competition die. This lets you "Control" the length of the neck that gets sized inside the bushing. I saw no need for that step as you can somewhat control the length of neck sizing in the "standard" type S by how far down you screw down the bushing retaining plug. I tried varying the length of new sizing from essentially full length to just more than half the neck length. I noted no differences in velocities or precision on target over that range. There is discussion of the "less than full neck length bushing sizing" leading to formation of the "dreaded doughnut", but I haven't encountered that (yet).

So, I like the standard bushing die, and don't think the competition micrometer is needed. You CAN get a standard die milled to a specific neck diameter which would make the whole bushing thing irrelevant (but wouldn't allow experimentation with different diameters if you had the urge). Hope this helps.

YMMV.
 
i had a stupid question, but found a good video that explained it all - i did misunderstand indeed of what and why.
just wonder, still, if the bushing die should - or should not be also used for depriming. the die is out of stock anyway, do, it will have to wait.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMeXxE5ag6U
 
Last edited:
so, what gets me confused - in a situation with multiple rifles and those bushings - like i have 2 rifles in that caliber - you have 3.
isn`t the point of having the bushing in the die is to match a specific bushing to a specific chamber in a specific gun?
as if we use same bushing for all 3 guns - what is the point to have the bushing die and not the regular $47 non-bushing die? What benefit will a bushing die provide if we have 3 different chambers producing different brass?
or do i misunderstand something global of what the bushings design die is for?
Paul,

My take is that the bushing is responsible for sizing (resizing) the neck (or the portion of the neck you set up by adjusting the bushing retaining plug or the micrometer). That resizing is to set up a desired neck tension to hold your bullet in the case. So, the diameter of the neck has nothing to do with your particular rifle or chamber. It is a function of the diameter of the bullet + the thickness of the casing brass surrounding the bullet. IF (silly) you had a chamber with a neck that was MUCH larger than the diameter of a reloaded round, you couldn't use the chamber diameter to resize your brass. If you did, there would be NO neck tension and the bullet would just fall out of the case. Neck sizing (as opposed to full length sizing) allows the fire-formed brass to retain the dimensions of your rifle's chamber (diameter/shape of the chamber body, length of the chamber from the bolt-face to the shoulder). If reloading for a single rifle, some think it ideal to just keep using the fire-formed body size and resize only the neck to set up neck-tension/concentricity to accept the new bullet.

EDIT: sorry, was writing this when you posted the video. No intention to patronize!
 
EDIT: sorry, was writing this when you posted the video. No intention to patronize!
no, it is all helpful as it is a new to me field of science. :)
a confusing part - all shot brass i have, and i have 4 types of it now - ends up at .296 neck diameter.
the small primer federal with hornady bullets, loaded - measures its neck at .292- and some few show as .291.5, those i will reload first.
large primer creedmoor sports with hornady bullets measures to .290-.289.5
large primer with nosler - to .291
large primer S&B - .292

bullets if measured, in any of those come to .264, as it is a 6.5CM, so , duh.
therefore the question - how many bushings sizes, other than a .291 one do i need?
 
Last edited:
no, it is all helpful as it is a new to me field of science. :)
a confusing part - all shot brass i have, and i have 4 types of it now - ends up at .296 neck diameter.
the small primer federal with hornady bullets, loaded - measures its neck at .292-.291.5
large primer creedmoor sports with hornady bullets measures to .290-.289.5
large primer with nosler - to .291
large primer S&B - .292

bullets if measured, in any of those come to .264, as it is a 6.5CM, so , duh.
therefore the question - how many bushings, other than a .291 one do i need? :)
Take it all with a grain of salt - refer to my handle (grin), and prepare for a LONG response. I think you'll quickly understand the answer to your question when you think of what leads to each of these measured outside neck diameters. The components are (1) the bullet itself, and (2) the thickness of the brass in the neck wall times 2. Again, I don't intend to patronize. The material between your caliper or micrometer jaws is a sandwich of the the brass case wall on each side of the bullet, with the bullet in the middle. If the bullet itself is always the same diameter (.264 in this case), the different measured sizes you're getting are caused by differences in the thickness of brass in the 4 different brands of cases you're using.

The smallest OD you've measured is with the Creedmoor sports brass. This measures up to .0025 less than the Federal or S&B cases. That difference gets divided by two (because the brass is on both sides of the bullet), indicating that the brass in the neck walls of the Creedmoor Sports cases is approximately .00125 (1.25 thousandths) thinner than the brass of the other two cases. IF your goal is to set a constant neck tension of 1 thousandth on the reloaded .291 diameter bullets, you want to set the INSIDE diameter of the resized case .001 less than .291, or at .290 before you seat a bullet. Your sizing dies don't set the inside diameter of resized cases directly. Rather they set the OUTSIDE diameter of the cases. So, the bushings you need are different to get the same inside diameter.

Redding instructs bushing selection based on measurement of a finished round using your bullets and brass. Alternatively, they advise to measure the thickness of the neck brass and add twice that thickness to one thickness of the bullet. Since you already have measurements of your finished rounds with the 4 kinds of brass, the first method is easiest. You merely subtract the desired neck tension from the measured outside diameter. I.E., if you're using the large primer S&B brass and you want to set a 1 thousandth neck tension, you would order a bushing that is 1 thousandth smaller than the .292 you measured for the finished round (.291 bushing). Squeezing the outside diameter down by 1 thousandth ALSO squeezes the INSIDE diameter by the same amount.

So, to directly answer your question, you need to first decide how much neck tension you want in your rounds. Then, subtract that from the measured diameters you list above. Crudely, if you have a .291 bushing, that will create cases with 1 thousandth of neck tension with either the S&B or Federal brass; it will set ZERO neck tension with the Nosler brass; and potentially, it won't even resize the Creedmore Sports brass to a size smaller than the bullet diameter, so that bullets will simply fall into the case. To get equivalent neck tension with all of your differing brass, you would need at least 3 bushings (.291 for Federal and S&B, .290 for the Nosler, and .288 or .289 for the Creedmoor Sports. Remember, these measurements are ONLY for the situation where you've decided that you want to create .001 neck tension. If you want a different tension (say two thousandths), the bushings would also need to be different sizes (.001 smaller than the numbers above in each case).

I ordered several bushings when I started with my .308 reloading because I didn't know at that time what neck tension would be "optimal". I was ONLY using one kind of brass, but I ordered 3 bushings (sizes that would produce .001, .002, .003 neck tensions) so I could try them out to see which worked "best" for my rifle (best ES and best precision). I also decided to set the final neck tension with mandrel expansion, but some experts suggest that isn't necessary if your neck sizing is consistent, and you're not getting concentricity problems with your dies.

Last, you can minimize the number of different bushings you "need" if you either turn your necks or set neck tension with a mandrel. Turning the necks can make all of the different brass have the SAME neck wall thicknesses, so they will all be sized to the same dimensions with the same bushings (but neck turning is a whole other ball of wax). Using a mandrel to set the INSIDE neck diameter means that you don't CARE what the outside neck diameter is. In this case, if you want .001 neck tension on a .264 bullet, means you need a mandrel with .263 diameter. This is oversimplified as it ignores "spring back" of the worked brass which becomes more pronounced as the brass gets work hardened, but I have not found spring back to significantly impact my results when using once, twice or even thrice-fired cases.

Sorry for the long message. Hope this is helpful.
 
I actually ordered bushings from .288 to .291 exactly as you stated, so I hope I understood it all correctly. It just hurts to pay for all of that.
I got them from Amazon, so, will experiment with all brass types when it will come.
Thx again, it was a very good explanation. The whole topic of that bushings selection is a chicken and egg issue- you ideally need to measure a loaded round to make a selection, but to load it correctly you need a bushing. :)
 
Dies arrived today, and with them came a question.
Those are from .223 kit that had FL and a neck die.
Lower one is from the neck, upper one is from FL.
Are those inserts interchangeable? The little expander barrel bushing diameter on top is same as the longer solid one below.

Is one better than another? I plan to use FL die only.
6F490566-D8B5-4973-993D-103AF943B05F.jpeg
 
Dies arrived today, and with them came a question.
Those are from .223 kit that had FL and a neck die.
Lower one is from the neck, upper one is from FL.
Are those inserts interchangeable? The little expander barrel bushing diameter on top is same as the longer solid one below.

Is one better than another? I plan to use FL die only.
View attachment 536797
Yeah, they are interchangeable, except, the one on the top has an expander ball separate from the decapping pin collar, while the one on the Botton has the expander integrated as part of the decapping pin collar. So, you can remove the expander ball from the stem on the top while retaining the decapping function of the sizing die, but you can't do that with the stem you show on the bottom.

If you constrict the neck much below the final desired size, you need to pull the expander ball/collar back through the case neck on the return stroke to, obviously, re-expand the neck to the final desired size for bullet seating. The whole point of using bushing dies is to NOT overly constrict the case neck during sizing so that the process of constricting and then re-expanding the neck brass doesn't excessively "work" the brass and harden it. Many people who use bushing dies simply remove the expander ball from the die so that there is no re-expansion of the case neck.

Another concern of the expander ball relates to the fact that the shell holders don't hold the case perfectly concentric to the case on the return stroke (the shell holder is open on one side, where you insert the shell, so the shell can rock up on that side as the case is pulled up by the expander ball being pulled up through the case neck on the return stroke). This can reshape your case so that the neck is not concentric, introducing runout issues with the final seated bullet. If you use a bushing that just squeezes the neck down to the final diameter you're looking for, there is no need for an expander at all. The theoretical benefit of this approach is that your brass may last longer without reannealing the necks.

So, on my press I'm using the stem you show on the top in my FL Type S bushing die. I unscrewed the decapping collar from the bottom of the stem, removed the button, and reattached the collar/decapping pin.
 
Many people who use bushing dies simply remove the expander ball
yep, i intend to do that when my 6.5CM set will come - this one on the picture is for .223.
i am not sure now, may be i will eventually buy a bushing set for .223 as well, but right now it is just too much $ at once.
plus i am not as obsessed with precision for my ARs as for bolt rifles.

last question left - for the ARs specifically, i read that most people say you DO need to crimp, even if you use a precision bullets like hornady eld match - is it true?
or will crimp die scratch those bullets no matter what? i guess i will find out myself soon enough :) - but, just curious of what the best practice is there.
 
last question left - for the ARs specifically, i read that most people say you DO need to crimp, even if you use a precision bullets like hornady eld match - is it true?
I load two "kinds" of .223 Rem. One is for range plinking exclusively in ARs. For those, I load 55 gr Hornady FMJs with cannelure. For those, I have my toolhead set up with a combined bullet seating/crimping die in station 8. Even in this setup, I've set a minimal crimp. As you've read, many recommend crimping .223/5.56 for ARs for both safety (so the bullets don't get forced back into the case neck in these magazine-fed rifles) and some people believe it aids with accuracy(?). I've never seen one of my bullets forced back into the case, and I never was able to see a difference in accuracy that depended on the extent of crimping.

I separately load .223 Rem for precision in a bolt rifle. I load that on a turret press, use heavier bullets without cannelures, and do not crimp. Again, I'm sure you've read the controversies as some people think that crimping the case can damage the precision bullet (perhaps crimping excessively?). My approach Is the same as for the .308 precision rounds. I set the neck tension with good dies/components and seat the match bullets for consistent depth, tension, and concentricity. So, regardless, I don't crimp my precision rounds.

Again, I'm hoping these messages are useful, but there are people on this forum that are FAR more experienced with reloading, precision rifles, ARs, and just about everything else related to firearms than I am. I'm just an enthusiast!
 
I'm hoping these messages are useful
it was very useful, as for me it is all too new to be capable to ask actual well formulated questions - as to be able to ask a good question one needs to know at least the half of the answer and i am not there yet. :)
but i am working on getting there. should be fun winter.
 
Back
Top Bottom