Return of the Glocks?

[drgrant]

If the cop was a NH State Trooper, and sold privately directly to a MA resident, then that's a Straw Purchase as well. Because they didn't go through a FFL.

That would not be prosecuted as a "straw purchase" however, it would
be under whatever part of the GCA that prohibits sales across state lines
by non licensees. A completely different law. (edit: I suppose they could
try to get them on BOTH charges, but the interstate thing would be far
more likely to "stick". )

A straw purchase is (usually) when someone buys a gun from an FFL for
someone else that can't legally buy it, because the end recipient of the
firearm is a prohibited person.

It can also be any other "direct" third party acquisition of a
firearm from an FFL. EG, joe and jack are not prohibited persons, but
jack pays joe $500 to get him a glock from the local store, and joe gives
the gun to jack. That's still a straw.

The more degrees of separation, however, the harder it gets
to prove a straw. If joe buys that glock with his own money, and
then decides to sell it to jack a month later, in another, wholly separate,
transaction, then it gets a LOT more difficult for someone to say that
it was indeed a "straw purchase." (Then it becomes an issue of
"intent" which gets murky, at best. )

A good case to look at about these 2nd type of straw purchases is
the Michael Lara case. The ATF put him through hell for an indirect
transfer. This case will give you an idea of the extremes the ATF
will go to... but it also gives you an idea of what constitutes a huge
red flag. In this case, the lady that ended up with the gun, had a copy
of Lara's 4473 with his name on it, with the gun! So the ATF instantly
thought "This guy strawed her this gun!". I believe he was acquitted,
but it is important to realize the mistakes both of them made so none of
us end up in the same type of scenario. (Despite his acquittal, I believe
his LE career was essentially ruined and had to pay all kinds of money).

Link to Lara's ATF oversight testimony about his case:
http://judiciary.house.gov/OversightTestimony.aspx?ID=582

-Mike

 

[C-pher]

Yet, I can buy a gun as a gift without issues...

I can, can't I?

 

[drgrant]

Yet, I can buy a gun as a gift without issues...

I can, can't I?

In MA it's sort of a pain in the ass unless you just send the recipient to
the FFL to go fill the paperwork out and pick it up. (Which begs the
question, I'm guessing that even on a gift-exemption style transfer
in MA, that FA-10s still have to be filed from the giver to the recipient...
course that's a state issue, as I don't think MA has any gift exemption
whatsoever.) And MA has the other issue that free states never
have- which is the dumb licensing requirement on both parties.

-Mike

 

[Len-2A Training]

Yet, I can buy a gun as a gift without issues...

I can, can't I?

Only MAYBE! Need lots more info to answer this question correctly and legally.

 

[jkelly]

Yet, I can buy a gun as a gift without issues...-C-pher

Why don't you buy one of those SVIs that are mass legal, and just as a test, give to me as a gift. Of course I'll give it back in a little while, honest!


Respectfully,

jkelly

 

[Joe R.]

Mass. legal Glocks.

1) I paid $720+ for having the privilage of owning my carry pistol, a Glock 29, because it passes the pre-98 garbage of the AG's office. Anywhere else that pistol would have been somewhere near $550.

2) I think this is the gist of the reasons Glock lost it in Mass. - you can change anything on a Glock with some punches. The Mass-legal Glocks came with a New York 2 trigger package ( orange spring clip ) that could be changed by the end user with some cash and a few minutes of time. AG's office didn't like that along with the loaded chamber indicator not being " visable " enough. Basically the AG's office just kept coming up with stuff it wanted Glock to change and then finally pulled the plug.

For us members of the People's republic, it was a sad day. Four Seasons has a good selection of refurbs but the sub-compacts are priced ridiculiously high!

The S&W M&P will probably have some Mass. teething troubles getting approval - let's see what happens.

Joe R.

 

[drgrant]

The S&W M&P will probably have some Mass. teething troubles getting approval - let's see what happens.

I doubt it. It's been on the roster for some time now, and S+W knows
the "secret formula" down to a science. Not to mention that unless
coakley starts making a big deal out of the AGs regs like reilly did, I doubt
it will get trapped. I mean, the damn thing has a mag safety in it!

-Mike

 

[vellnueve]

FS expects the M&P to be in stock for sale this week.

 

[ktmhans]

WOW, this sort of blows my mind, is I am from CT I guesse things are quite different across state lines. So in Ma I wouldn't (sort of) be able to own my G-23.

 

[drgrant]

WOW, this sort of blows my mind, is I am from CT I guesse things are quite different across state lines. So in Ma I wouldn't (sort of) be able to own my G-23.

Again, posession of "off roster" or "noncomplaint" handguns is not
illegal. You can move into the state with whatever you have, as long
as it doesn't violate the MA AW ban. (and the majority of handguns
don't, unless its like an AR or AK pistol or something. ) The handgun
compliance regs only apply in one context- to an MA licensed dealer
selling or transferring a handgun to an MA resident. (and even at that,
the responsibility is on the dealer, not the consumer. )

-Mike

 

[EddieCoyle]

1) I paid $720+ for having the privilage of owning my carry pistol, a Glock 29, because it passes the pre-98 garbage of the AG's office. Anywhere else that pistol would have been somewhere near $550.

Welcome to the forum Joe R!

It's a pleasure to meet another G29 carrier. Mine has been my constant companion since I picked it up. Not with those wimpy FBI loads either. With 10 rounds of the mighty 10mm and a 15-round backup mag, I can't think of a more powerful and compact carry package. I hope you load 10mm, otherwise it get pretty expensive to shoot.

If you look around, you can still find decent deals in Mass, even on compact Glocks. I picked up my G29 from the "Classifieds" section of this very forum for the princely sum of $550.

 

[Joe R.]

Eddie,

Got mine at the Tombstone Trading table at a Springfield show last year. They had the best looking and the cheapest one of the 2 at the show. I wasn't patient enough to look for a deal.

Don't reload for it - yet. I have enough of a budget that PMC and Remington are on supply at the house. Good thing is the brass I'm piling up for reloading! Sure wish that someone here in MA sold Double Tap ammo in 10mm. I would like to see it out of both the Glock and the Delta Elite I have!

I see I made a mistake on the M&P as far as MA-approved list - hey, I'm human and I admit my mistake!

Joe R.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Again, posession of "off roster" or "noncomplaint" handguns is not
illegal. You can move into the state with whatever you have, as long
as it doesn't violate the MA AW ban. (and the majority of handguns
don't, unless its like an AR or AK pistol or something. ) The handgun
compliance regs only apply in one context- to an MA licensed dealer
selling or transferring a handgun to an MA resident. (and even at that,
the responsibility is on the dealer, not the consumer. )

-Mike

Mike what you say is correct, but you didn't address mags.

Possession of ANY newer than 9/13/94 hi-cap mags (pistol, rifle or shotgun) are illegal unless you are LE. This includes anyone in MA for any reason except FOPA (just driving thru).

So his G23 may be OK, but the mags he has with it may or may not be OK.

 

[Glennzo]

LenS How can you tell the date on a large cap mag? I don't recall seeing a date on any mag?

 

[drgrant]

Mike what you say is correct, but you didn't address mags.

I did, but in a sort of roundabout way- the post-ban mags
are prohibited by the MA AW ban I mentioned.

-Mike

 

[Len-2A Training]

LenS How can you tell the date on a large cap mag? I don't recall seeing a date on any mag?

Many (but not all) new AR mags are date-coded.

All H&K mags that I've ever seen are date-coded.

Glock mags aren't definitive, but #6 followers (as an example) and some other features give every indication of being new (post-ban). Do an Advanced Search on Gun Laws forum for lots of fuzzy info on Glock mags.

Can't speak to other mags, but you get the idea.

 

[drgrant]

All H&K mags that I've ever seen are date-coded.

Well, they have codes on them, but the factory will not
tell anyone what the codes on the mags mean. They are
NOT the same as the codes for the guns themselves,
eg, KG=1996 , etc. It's very possible that those codes
may be of a different format, or may be some sort of internal
code for a given production run.

See:

(from mark23.com):

"However, and this is important, this coding system does NOT apply to nonproofed items. On the parts of the firearms made by HK, one can frequently find another 2 letter code, which indicates which year the part was manufactured. This is an entirely different, and so far secret, code from HK. The code is of particular interest to those seeing 2 letter codes stamped on magazines, but also on other parts. If the stamped code for your part is newer than your firearms proof year, its obviously a replaced part. The users at the HKPro board had gotten their noggins together some time back and tried to reason out what this secret code is. This is a guess at what the secret HK code is for parts:

Guess at HK Secret Parts Manuf. Date Code
93 94 95 96 97 98 99 00 01 02
ir ie is ik io id ii or np jc?

Edit: I just remembered... all my USP .40 (fullsize) mags (I have twelve of
them, all hicaps) all have a real date printed/stamped on the magazine. Says "06/94" or
something like that.

The other problem is newer HK mags don't have any codes on them
at all. EG, most (if not all) of the USPc 10 rounders I have don't have a code.

Newer HK USP post-bans also don't have a code, usually just a model
and caliber.

I'll have to look when I get home, but most of my P7M8 mags, have
codes, but I -think- the two that I got with the gun are codeless. (I have 6 mags
total, and 4 of them are coded, but I think the 2 originals just say P7M8 on them).

-Mike

 

[Len-2A Training]

From HKPro.com
http://www.hkpro.com/symbols.htm

The date coding system is very simple too. It gets tricky when you start talking about non-proofed products like firearm magazines, but the general rule is thus:

A B C D E F G H I K
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

The letter corresponds to the number. The letter 'J' is skipped for proofed firearms, but is present on magazines.

More (see reply #5):
http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52730

The letter "J" is not used in HK firearm date codes. It is used, however, on frames and magazines. Here is the entire list as I have it.
Date codes
Slide=year=frame=mag
KA=90=JA=ja?
KB=91=?=?
KC=92=?=?
KD=93=IR=ir
KE=94=IE=ie
KF=95=IS=is
KG=96=IK=ik
KH=97=IO=io
KI=98=ID=id
KK=99=II=ii
AA=00=OR=or
AB=01=NP=np
AC=02=AC=ac?
AD=03=AD=ad?
AE=04=AE=ae?
AF=05=AF=af?
AG=06=AG=ag?
AH=07=AH=ah?

So far as I know nobody has seen a magazine with a date code after 2001 when the frame date codes started being the same as the slide date codes in 2002.

So, JC is likely 91 or 92, my guess is 92 with 91 being JB, but that is just a WAG. If you can find out for sure let us know so those blanks can be filled in.

I'm just offering the above H&K info, I have no idea how accurate it is (or not).

 

[vellnueve]

Of course, the P7M8 mags aren't an issue since they are all under 10 rounds capacity.

There is a stickied thread in the gun laws forum giving instructions on identifying preban mags. The bottom line is that only non-FML mags can be conclusively identified as pre-94 and only LEO mags can conclusively be proven as post 94.