RI dealer selling long gun to Mass Resident

Knob Creek

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In the past a dealer in Rhode Island could sell to a non-resident from Massachusetts. Do the NICS check and have the customer wait the seven days. Then the buyer could receive the gun. The Dealer also had to fill out a form and bring it to the local PD. Now I'm told that now the Dealer must bring that form to the PD in the town when the buyer lives. How does that work for non-residents? Or doesn't it?
 
The remote in RI rats on you to your PD. Don’t do it. Get the gun shipped to an MA or NH dealer instead.
 
In the past a dealer in Rhode Island could sell to a non-resident from Massachusetts. Do the NICS check and have the customer wait the seven days. Then the buyer could receive the gun. The Dealer also had to fill out a form and bring it to the local PD. Now I'm told that now the Dealer must bring that form to the PD in the town when the buyer lives. How does that work for non-residents? Or doesn't it?

The remote in RI rats on you to your PD. Don’t do it. Get the gun shipped to an MA or NH dealer instead.

I remember that there was talk about enacting the requirement for the town background check to be sent to the buyer's town last year but I don't see any language in RIGL 11-47-35.2(b) indicating such a change:

11-47-35.2

(b) The person who is selling the rifle or shotgun shall, on the date of application, sign and forward by registered mail or by delivery in person, the original and duplicate copies of the application to the superintendent of the Rhode Island state police or the chief of police in the city or town in which the seller has his or her residence or place of business. The superintendent of the Rhode Island state police or the chief of police in the city or town in which the person has his or her residence or place of business shall mark or stamp the original copy of the application form with the date and time of receipt and return it by the most expeditious means to the seller. The triplicate copy duly signed by the seller shall within seven (7) days be sent by him or her by registered mail to the attorney general. The person shall retain the original copy duly receipted by the police authority to whom sent or delivered for a period of six (6) years with other records of the sale. It shall be the duty of the police authority to whom the duplicate copy of the application form is sent or delivered to make a background check of the applicant to ascertain whether he or she falls under the provisions of § 11-47-5, 11-47-6, 11-47-7, or 11-47-23. If, after the lapse of seven (7) days from twelve o'clock (12:00) noon of the day following application, no disqualifying information has been received from the investigating police authority by the person who is selling the rifle or shotgun, he or she will deliver the firearm applied for to the applicant. Upon the finding of no disqualifying information under the provisions of the above cited sections of this chapter, and in no case later than thirty (30) days after the date of application, the duplicate and triplicate copies of the application will be destroyed. Retention of the duplicate and triplicate copies in violation of this chapter or any unauthorized use of the information contained in them by a person or agency shall be punishable by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000). The provisions of this section shall not apply to bona fide sales at wholesale to duly licensed retail dealers, nor to purchases by retail dealers duly licensed under the provisions of § 11-47-39.

I'll double check into this tonight after work. Note that a receiver, like an AR receiver, would be handled like a handgun under RI law and would be subject to RIGL 11-47-35.
 
I remember that there was talk about enacting the requirement for the town background check to be sent to the buyer's town last year but I don't see any language in RIGL 11-47-35.2(b) indicating such a change:

11-47-35.2



I'll double check into this tonight after work. Note that a receiver, like an AR receiver, would be handled like a handgun under RI law and would be subject to RIGL 11-47-35.
Isn't there a Federal ATF ruling as well for any stripped lower receiver? Because of the ability of making an stripped virgin lower into a pistol it needs to go through a FFL of the state of the non resident? I believe an out of state dealer can sell a complete ar15 to a non resident in person without going through a FFL in a non resident state?
 
Isn't there a Federal ATF ruling as well for any stripped lower receiver? Because of the ability of making an stripped virgin lower into a pistol it needs to go through a FFL of the state of the non resident? I believe an out of state dealer can sell a complete ar15 to a non resident in person without going through a FFL in a non resident state?
Yes, a stripped lower is a firearm and must be transferred in a state where one can show residence. Presumably it like you stated, it can be made into a pistol.
 
I remember that there was talk about enacting the requirement for the town background check to be sent to the buyer's town last year but I don't see any language in RIGL 11-47-35.2(b) indicating such a change:

11-47-35.2



I'll double check into this tonight after work. Note that a receiver, like an AR receiver, would be handled like a handgun under RI law and would be subject to RIGL 11-47-35.

Please do, there was an MA guy here a few years ago who basically had a deal where his occasion of purchasing an AR in RI ended up with the local kopsch getting tipped off and then stopping by his house and stealing his rifle because they claimed it was an "assault weapon" or some bullshit like that. Not sure what ever happened to that guy but the thread was at least a few pages long.
 
Please do, there was an MA guy here a few years ago who basically had a deal where his occasion of purchasing an AR in RI ended up with the local kopsch getting tipped off and then stopping by his house and stealing his rifle because they claimed it was an "assault weapon" or some bullshit like that. Not sure what ever happened to that guy but the thread was at least a few pages long.

The General Assembly passed and the Governor signed a change to 11-47-35.2(b) in 2020 where the seller of a long gun would provide a copy of the town background check (see 11-47-35.2(a)) to the RI State Police if the buyer was an out of state resident. The town background check DOES NOT include any relevant information about what kind of gun it is outside of the fact that its a shotgun or rifle, or handgun/receiver under 11-47-35.

law20061

If someone's curious, the bill was SB 2154 of 2020:

State of Rhode Island General Assembly

Anything that gets specific about what kind of long gun it is goes beyond the statutory requirement for what a background check consists of. Also, this change happened in July, 2020. Anything before that involved a shop calling the Mass town cops on the shop's initiative.

Just to be clear, the RI state background check (1) does not specify what kind of long gun is being purchased; and (2) goes to the RISP in the case of non-residents.

Isn't there a Federal ATF ruling as well for any stripped lower receiver? Because of the ability of making an stripped virgin lower into a pistol it needs to go through a FFL of the state of the non resident? I believe an out of state dealer can sell a complete ar15 to a non resident in person without going through a FFL in a non resident state?

Yes but that's not relevant here - my point is that RI has one statute for the sale of long guns, 11-47-35.2, and one for the sale of handguns including unfinished receivers, 11-47-35. Two different statutes, both are largely the same in substance. Federal law is for another thread.
 
Although most gun dealers in Rhode Island aren’t aware, it is unlawful for a non-resident of RI to acquire a firearm in RI unless

1. they are active duty military stationed in RI.

or

2. they are license to carry under 11-47-11.

RIGL 11-47-35.2(a) clearly states

”Any citizen of the United States and/or lawful resident of this state who is eighteen (18) years of age or older, and any nonresident member of the armed forces of the United States who is stationed in this state and who is eighteen…”

In reality, no one in RI knows this and the state police probably wouldn’t even pick up on it as RI FFLs will sell long guns to non-residents.

That said, in most cases, the only legal way for a non-resident to do so is to be exempt by virtue of being licensed under 11-47-11.
 
Although most gun dealers in Rhode Island aren’t aware, it is unlawful for a non-resident of RI to acquire a firearm in RI unless

1. they are active duty military stationed in RI.

or

2. they are license to carry under 11-47-11.

RIGL 11-47-35.2(a) clearly states

”Any citizen of the United States and/or lawful resident of this state who is eighteen (18) years of age or older, and any nonresident member of the armed forces of the United States who is stationed in this state and who is eighteen…”

In reality, no one in RI knows this and the state police probably wouldn’t even pick up on it as RI FFLs will sell long guns to non-residents.

That said, in most cases, the only legal way for a non-resident to do so is to be exempt by virtue of being licensed under 11-47-11.

No, you're reading the statute wrong.

Let's break down the second sentence of -35.2(a).

"Any citizen of the United States" means a US citizen.
"lawful resident of this state" means a Rhode Island resident, typified as someone with a Rhode Island driving license.
"and/or" means (1) either someone's a US citizen and not a RI resident; or (2) someone's both a US citizen and a RI resident.
"eighteen (18) years of age or older" means adults.
"and any nonresident member of the armed forces of the United States who is stationed in this state and who is eighteen (18) years of age or older" is an inclusive addition of military members who aren't RI residents who are adults
" may, upon application, purchase or acquire a rifle or shotgun" means that a person who is either:

*A US citizen who isn't a RI resident
*A US citizen who is a RI resident
*A US servicemember who may or may not be a US citizen (Larry Thorne) and isn't a RI resident, but is stationed in RI

may apply through filling out the form drawn out in 11-47-35.2(a) to purchase a rifle or shotgun. Meaning, that a nonresident who is a US citizen may buy a rifle or shotgun in RI.

There are some pretty well-off gun shops making good amounts of money from sales to nonresidents. Those gun shops aren't going to skirt the law because their livelihood and substantial investments are on the line. Especially in RI's political climate where gun shops and owners are always under threat. 11-47-35.2(a) is pretty clear that nonresident US citizens or servicemembers may buy guns in RI.

More importantly, remember that RI has no licensing requirements for ownership, purchase, or possession of long guns. I don't know why Mass people make this assumption because very few states have mandatory licensing for long guns. If someone can pass the application laid out in 11-47-35.2(a), they're good to possess a long gun in RI.
 
No, you're reading the statute wrong.

Let's break down the second sentence of -35.2(a).

"Any citizen of the United States" means a US citizen.
"lawful resident of this state" means a Rhode Island resident, typified as someone with a Rhode Island driving license.
"and/or" means (1) either someone's a US citizen and not a RI resident; or (2) someone's both a US citizen and a RI resident.
"eighteen (18) years of age or older" means adults.
"and any nonresident member of the armed forces of the United States who is stationed in this state and who is eighteen (18) years of age or older" is an inclusive addition of military members who aren't RI residents who are adults
" may, upon application, purchase or acquire a rifle or shotgun" means that a person who is either:

*A US citizen who isn't a RI resident
*A US citizen who is a RI resident
*A US servicemember who may or may not be a US citizen (Larry Thorne) and isn't a RI resident, but is stationed in RI

may apply through filling out the form drawn out in 11-47-35.2(a) to purchase a rifle or shotgun. Meaning, that a nonresident who is a US citizen may buy a rifle or shotgun in RI.

There are some pretty well-off gun shops making good amounts of money from sales to nonresidents. Those gun shops aren't going to skirt the law because their livelihood and substantial investments are on the line. Especially in RI's political climate where gun shops and owners are always under threat. 11-47-35.2(a) is pretty clear that nonresident US citizens or servicemembers may buy guns in RI.

More importantly, remember that RI has no licensing requirements for ownership, purchase, or possession of long guns. I don't know why Mass people make this assumption because very few states have mandatory licensing for long guns. If someone can pass the application laid out in 11-47-35.2(a), they're good to possess a long gun in RI.

11-47-35.2 dealers with transfers, not possession.

I’m reading it correctly due to the legislative history of 11-47-35.1 and 11-47-35.2 You either have to be a

1. US Citizen and/or a lawful resident of RI.
2. a non-resident military member stationed in RI.

Furthermore, pursuant to 11-47-35.2(b), the state form has nowhere to go for a non-resident. The State police can only process forms from Exeter residents or non-resident active duty military members. States don’t have extraterritorial jurisdiction so it’s not like the RI FFL can mandate a form goes to a Mass police chief and then assume obligations on an out of state actor.

As a historical legislative note. “And/or Lawful resident” was added when Perry Wheeler (deceased NRA lobbyist) told the AG Jeff Pine that he was going to sue over the former version Of RI 11-47-7 so the assembly changed it to be narrowly tailored to illegal aliens. When 11-47-7 was modified in the 1990’s, so was 11-47-35 and 11-47-35.2 and that’s when they added ”and/or” to category 1.

I’m aware RI doesn’t have possession licensing (except for machine guns). That doesn’t change that 11-47-35 and 11-47-35.2 have blanket exemptions for people licensed under 11-47-11 (town permits). That exemption has been around since Linda Cushner was upset and watered it down to just town permits.

You’re correct that very few states have possession licenses, numerous states (RI included) make it easier to buy firearms if you are licensed to carry.
 

It’s not a competition. 20 years ago I had a difficult enough time getting FFLs to accept 11-47-11 permits as an exemption to the state waiting period. Now people just take it for granted.

I’m just glad to see more people involved. 20 years ago it was only Archer and myself pushing town permits, no one else knew or cared… now it’s taken for granted.
 
11-47-35.2 dealers with transfers, not possession.

I’m reading it correctly due to the legislative history of 11-47-35.1 and 11-47-35.2 You either have to be a

1. US Citizen and/or a lawful resident of RI.

Stop there. You said it yourself. If someone's an adult US citizen, which would therefore include a non-resident adult US citizen, they may purchase a rifle or shotgun in RI.

This thread isn't about non-resident non-citizens. That's a different discussion.

If this were to go to court, RI courts would start with the version of the statute in place at the time of the triggering event. The courts wouldn't get into the history of the statute because Rhode Island General Assembly records are very sparse. There's typically the old versions of the statutes but no formal legislative record, absent an explicit legislative intent formulated inside a statute (see RIGL 1-3-3 for an example of the General Assembly expressing legislative intent).

It’s not a competition. 20 years ago I had a difficult enough time getting FFLs to accept 11-47-11 permits as an exemption to the state waiting period. Now people just take it for granted.

I’m just glad to see more people involved. 20 years ago it was only Archer and myself pushing town permits, no one else knew or cared… now it’s taken for granted.

Thank you very much for your efforts.
 
Stop there. You said it yourself. If someone's an adult US citizen, which would therefore include a non-resident adult US citizen, they may purchase a rifle or shotgun in RI.

This thread isn't about non-resident non-citizens. That's a different discussion.

If this were to go to court, RI courts would start with the version of the statute in place at the time of the triggering event. The courts wouldn't get into the history of the statute because Rhode Island General Assembly records are very sparse. There's typically the old versions of the statutes but no formal legislative record, absent an explicit legislative intent formulated inside a statute (see RIGL 1-3-3 for an example of the General Assembly expressing legislative intent).



Thank you very much for your efforts.


Thank you. I sincerely appreciate it. It was a frustrating effort and we had very little support from anyone. We were sadly naive enough to think Archer v McGarry was going to fix it, then we held out hope for Mosby v Devine And thought we won… boy were we wrong 😆. We underestimated the nonsense RI bureaucrats would play.

As far as the non-resident purchasing issue insofar as state law. I was just giving a legislative history for the backstory to why and/or was added. I have paper copies of RI gun laws going back to 1897 buried somewhere in the basement.


The reason FFLs sell long guns to out of state non-town permit holders and the reason the police don’t care is because they are misapplying the Last Antecedent Rule. This is a very common mistake in the legal world. If there was a comma before the and/or, then it would be legal. Since there is no comma, US Citizens and lawful residents both have to be residents.

In other words, “US Citizen, or a lawful resident of this state” would have a very different outcome from the current wording.

I’m aware that many FFLs still sell them. RI police just don’t understand gun laws. For example, before I had a town permit, I bought a handgun via private sale, I mailed the paperwork to the police department to the PD where the private sale took place and I waited 7 days before taking possession. The detective called the seller and said it wasn’t necessary as it was a private sale and “that’s why there are so many guns on the streets.“ Myself and the seller just laughed it off Because 11-47-35 and 35.2 absolutely apply to all firearm transfers, including private sales… but the PD never got the memo.

Even to this day, many RI cops don’t know that AG permit holders can openly carry. Former BCI management used to tell police Who would call them that it was legal. They finally have that on their website and they still get questions about it.

Because of many issues of misunderstanding statutes and poorly worded sections of the RIGL, many dealers and the police just assume it’s legal. Just as some FFLs waive the waiting period/RI paperwork for AG pistol permit holders even though it’s illegal for them to do it, they just assume it’s ok.

It’s common for the assembly to write poorly worded laws. For example, 11-47-18 still explicitly says the AG can issue Pistol permits to illegal aliens because they never repealed that sections reference to 11-47-7 when it was changed from non-US Citizens who resided in the state for less than 10 years to illegal aliens.

In closing, I wish it was legal for non-residents to buy in RI without needing a town permit; however, it’s due to the lack of one comma in that sentence (Last Antecedent Rule). I also think it would be asinine for the AG to ever target an FFL because the language is poorly worded and the Rule of Lenity. The state bureaucrats were too busy for years focusing on permit holders carrying in schools and now they are zeroed in on normal capacity magazines and scary looking rifles. I just don’t think this is on anyone’s radar and the average anti-2A state rep is too dumb to comprehend any of this stuff so there is thankfully no attention on this issue.
 
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There are some pretty well-off gun shops making good amounts of money from sales to nonresidents. Those gun shops aren't going to skirt the law because their livelihood and substantial investments are on the line. Especially in RI's political climate where gun shops and owners are always under threat. 11-47-35.2(a) is pretty clear that nonresident US citizens or servicemembers may buy guns in RI.
Unless something is ultra rare what is the point of buying something in RI from out of state?
 
Unless something is ultra rare what is the point of buying something in RI from out of state?
Some do to close proximity to RI or because something specific is in stock.

The things I find that are nice in RI are older C&R guns or private collections that people inherited or that widows want to sell. Sometimes you can find some good stuff.
 
Here is a simplified version of the discussion above…if you walk into a RI gun store and they will sell it to you, pay the man at the counter, and be happy with your new purchase…
 
Unless something is ultra rare what is the point of buying something in RI from out of state?

There's a lot of cross-border customers for the usual RI gun stores. But this place in particular is basically designed to sell to out-of-state customers:

Homepage - November 2021

When I was in law school, one of my classmates worked there and pointed out that most of their customers were from outside RI, like NY. The average gun guy near that place isn't going to join. Its very expensive and caters to the high end niche. My classmate also pointed out that quite a lot of money went into developing that place.

Besides that, same reason why anyone goes to a gun store - because it's there.
 
You just know that any place with "Shoppe" in it's name is going to be expensive! ;)

There's a lot of cross-border customers for the usual RI gun stores. But this place in particular is basically designed to sell to out-of-state customers:

Homepage - November 2021

When I was in law school, one of my classmates worked there and pointed out that most of their customers were from outside RI, like NY. The average gun guy near that place isn't going to join. Its very expensive and caters to the high end niche. My classmate also pointed out that quite a lot of money went into developing that place.

Besides that, same reason why anyone goes to a gun store - because it's there.
 
Some do to close proximity to RI or because something specific is in stock.

The things I find that are nice in RI are older C&R guns or private collections that people inherited or that widows want to sell. Sometimes you can find some good stuff.
Would it be illegal for a non-RI resident (without a permit) who is a C&R holder to obtain a long gun from a RI FFL?
 
Would it be illegal for a non-RI resident (without a permit) who is a C&R holder to obtain a long gun from a RI FFL?

A 03 making a purchase is a FFL to FFL transfer, you're not buying the gun in your individual capacity, assuming the gun's going into your bound book. You're acting within your capacity as a Federal Firearms Licensee, not an individual citizen. RIGL 11-47-35.2(a) applies to private citizens.
 
I’ve often wondered about that because when you get an 03, the ATF always reminds you that state law must be complied with.

People on C&R pages often say how some state laws are so bad that the 03 is rendered useless when an 03 holder wants to buy something out of state in a private sale.

I think 03 licenses are going to boom in popularity because the 50 year rule now includes nice modern stuff from the early 1970’s. I’m sure that will be a future “loophole” that the antis will cry about.
 
You just know that any place with "Shoppe" in it's name is going to be expensive! ;)

That place is out of reach for most of the RI gun community. Perhaps Sheldon Whitehouse uses them to enhance his massive collection. They do have some cool stuff though.
 
There's a lot of cross-border customers for the usual RI gun stores. But this place in particular is basically designed to sell to out-of-state customers:

Homepage - November 2021

When I was in law school, one of my classmates worked there and pointed out that most of their customers were from outside RI, like NY. The average gun guy near that place isn't going to join. Its very expensive and caters to the high end niche. My classmate also pointed out that quite a lot of money went into developing that place.

Besides that, same reason why anyone goes to a gun store - because it's there.
Thank you for the correction. I went over the language in 11-47-35 and 11-47-35.2. Your analysis is correct.

I came to the wrong conclusion. The / for and/or (very poor to use in statutory law) threw my mind down the wrong path and I was focused on the last antecedent rule and I was viewing option A1 and A2 (US Citizen and lawful resident of RI respectively) as conditions instead of options because I was focused on how those sections originally began in 1929 and how they evolved over the decades.
 
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