Ridgeline May 2021 Scoped Carbine Class

[xtry51]

If I was going to update my rifle, I would get one of these.

Mark 8 1.1-8x24mm CQBSS M5B1 Front Focal​

Mark 8 CQBSS 1.1-8x24 M5B1 Illum. FFP H-27D

From close quarters to long-range engagements, the Mark 8® CQBSS® 1.1-8x24mm incorporates everything military, law enforcement, and professional shooters need into one extremely versatile riflescope. The illuminated first focal plane reticles provide accurate range estimation throughout the...

www.leupold.com

 

[PappyM3]

If I was going to update my rifle, I would get one of these.

Mark 8 1.1-8x24mm CQBSS M5B1 Front Focal​

Mark 8 CQBSS 1.1-8x24 M5B1 Illum. FFP H-27D

From close quarters to long-range engagements, the Mark 8® CQBSS® 1.1-8x24mm incorporates everything military, law enforcement, and professional shooters need into one extremely versatile riflescope. The illuminated first focal plane reticles provide accurate range estimation throughout the...

www.leupold.com

Those are good, but very expensive considering their age. Even with a hefty .mil discount. An ATACR 1-8 or Razor Gen III 1-10 are pretty easily arguably better optics and the same or less money.

 

[paul73]

Those are good, but very expensive considering their age. Even with a hefty .mil discount. An ATACR 1-8 or Razor Gen III 1-10 are pretty easily arguably better optics and the same or less money.

for the .223 - that one is pretty much a scaled down razor glass. very well made and good quality.

Viper PST Gen II 1-6x24

Please Select Reticle | 30mm Tube

vortexoptics.com

i got now that one in SFP on the .223 and got a 5-25 MOA FFP for the 6.5CM rifle. those 2 gen PST scopes are excellent.
i do not say razor is worse, but, the new PST is still excellent.

at 1x, with SFP - it is great for tactical and CQC - the eye relief is huge and you can keep both eyes open while moving easy and still see the reticle fine and clear through the scope, all very easy and comfortable.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

for the .223 - that one is pretty much a scaled down razor glass. very well made and good quality.

Viper PST Gen II 1-6x24

Please Select Reticle | 30mm Tube

vortexoptics.com

i got now that one in SFP on the .223 and got a 5-25 MOA FFP for the 6.5CM rifle. those 2 gen PST scopes are excellent.
i do not say razor is worse, but, the new PST is still excellent.

at 1x, with SFP - it is great for tactical and CQC - the eye relief is huge and you can keep both eyes open while moving easy and still see the reticle fine and clear through the scope, all very easy and comfortable.

For the context of this class, you would get more out of a scope with exposed turrets. It is not really required, but it will be easier to dial in your range calls and give you a baseline into using a scope in precision shooting.

 

[Matt_SERE]

For the context of this class, you would get more out of a scope with exposed turrets. It is not really required, but it will be easier to dial in your range calls and give you a baseline into using a scope in precision shooting.

Per Vortex they are capped for safety when shooting in hallways, 4 gun competition and such.

Cued to uncapped:

 

[ChevyGuy91]

Per Vortex they are capped for safety when shooting in hallways, 4 gun competition and such.

Cued to uncapped:

I had one of these scopes and sold it, I am aware of how they work. Like I said, not required, but if someone is setting up a rifle for this class, I would go for traditional turret scope that you can slip for your zero.

Also, skip MOA and just go for a mil/mil scope. Rudy explains how to use it and why it is way better/easier then MOA in his classroom portion of this class. By the end of the weekend, I felt like a chump with an MOA scope.

 

[243Proto]

I had one of these scopes and sold it, I am aware of how they work. Like I said, not required, but if someone is setting up a rifle for this class, I would go for traditional turret scope that you can slip for your zero.

Also, skip MOA and just go for a mil/mil scope. Rudy explains how to use it and why it is way better/easier then MOA in his classroom portion of this class. By the end of the weekend, I felt like a chump with an MOA scope.

The other thing I would add to the MOA comment would be FFP vs SFP

I could live with an MOA reticle so long as it was FFP

With a FFP scope 1mil = 1mil no matter what the maginification

In other words....1mil at 100=3.6"....at 200 its 7.2", at 500 its 18"....easy peasy so long as you can memorize or do basic math in your head

On a SFP scope 1mil=1mil only at one magnification......and it varies at all other magnifications.....

 

[Matt_SERE]

Thanks guys. I have that scope and though it seems capable it doesn't seem ideal for this course.

I don't have cause for and little occasion to shoot out past 2 yards. Long range precision shooting is somewhat of a bucket list skill for me.

 

[boilermaker]

I had one of these scopes and sold it, I am aware of how they work. Like I said, not required, but if someone is setting up a rifle for this class, I would go for traditional turret scope that you can slip for your zero.

Also, skip MOA and just go for a mil/mil scope. Rudy explains how to use it and why it is way better/easier then MOA in his classroom portion of this class. By the end of the weekend, I felt like a chump with an MOA scope.

So if you were to take the class again, what would you be using for a scope?

 

[xtry51]

I would not buy a Vortex and the money is worth it for me to stick to Leupold. That scope I'm using was literally on an upper that blew up about 7 years ago and disintegrated. I took it and the LaRue mount it was on, bolted it to another upper and it was still basically zeroed. I'll try to find the pic of the rifle after.

 

[xtry51]

So if you were to take the class again, what would you be using for a scope this go round?

I would use the same scope. I'm fact these are discontinued, but see them pop up occasionally for around $800 and one of these days I'm going to buy another.

 

[PappyM3]

I had one of these scopes and sold it, I am aware of how they work. Like I said, not required, but if someone is setting up a rifle for this class, I would go for traditional turret scope that you can slip for your zero.

Also, skip MOA and just go for a mil/mil scope. Rudy explains how to use it and why it is way better/easier then MOA in his classroom portion of this class. By the end of the weekend, I felt like a chump with an MOA scope.

The exception to that for me is that I don't mind MOA adjustments if the reticle is strictly BDC/wind holds calibrated for your intended caliber and barrel length.

But if I'm going to be dialing knobs to match reticle stadia lines, MIL reticle with MIL knobs all the way.

For those not familiar with the benefits of the base-10 system. Say you know your dope is the 650 yard shot is 5.2 mil. Your MIL scope adjustments are in .1 increments. You simply hold on the 5 mil stadia line and click two times.

Whereas if you use MOA, you need to convert your MOA hold into 1/4 increments and figure out to which quarter you're going to round up or down. Sitting at a quiet computer, it's not bad at all. But put yourself into a time sensitive, stressful situation, and the base-10 system really starts to make sense.

For the context of this class, you would get more out of a scope with exposed turrets. It is not really required, but it will be easier to dial in your range calls and give you a baseline into using a scope in precision shooting.

Interesting. Reading up on the course, I would have thought it'd be optimized for BDC/wind hold reticles.

for the .223 - that one is pretty much a scaled down razor glass. very well made and good quality.

Viper PST Gen II 1-6x24

Please Select Reticle | 30mm Tube

vortexoptics.com

i got now that one in SFP on the .223 and got a 5-25 MOA FFP for the 6.5CM rifle. those 2 gen PST scopes are excellent.
i do not say razor is worse, but, the new PST is still excellent.

at 1x, with SFP - it is great for tactical and CQC - the eye relief is huge and you can keep both eyes open while moving easy and still see the reticle fine and clear through the scope, all very easy and comfortable.

That's definitely a combat proven optic. It saw a decent amount of service as a personally procured optic within SOF. I just wish they would give it the AR-BDC3 reticle of their current Strike Eagle line. Though, maybe they thought that would syphon off too much from the interest in their Razor Gen 3.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

So if you were to take the class again, what would you be using for a scope?

Me personally? I am not sure, I haven't been tracking the market. What I would want would be something with 10x+ power, FFP, mil/mil, and slippable locking turrets with an RMR mounted offset.

Money no object? A Leopold Mk6 3-18 with an RMR, but that is what I would set up my rifle with if I pissed money.

But, like xtry is saying, you can do it with almost anything if you know your rifle/load/scope.

 

[paul73]

The other thing I would add to the MOA comment would be FFP vs SFP

you are missing the whole point of why to have a 1-6x scope in SFP. or, why to have a 1-6x scope at all.
if those guys would train you on running drills and tactical exercises, shooting while moving - you will see where SFP works. that specific 1-6x viper is very good for that.

in the end - all those scopes and reticles are only as good as your knowledge of shortcuts and an ability to operate them correctly. get one kind, get used to it, learn it well and then just shoot it.

 

[paul73]

Whereas if you use MOA, you need to convert your MOA hold into 1/4 increments and figure out to which quarter you're going to round up or down. Sitting at a quiet computer, it's not bad at all. But put yourself into a time sensitive, stressful situation, and the base-10 system really starts to make sense.

core of MOA - 1" per 100yds, 3" at 300yds. your 5-25x in 1/4 deg, so, knowing distance - that you also can use your reticle for, at 25x on FFP on a person wide target - you set the distance and then just rotate as many clicks as needed - NOT LOOKING at the scope.
once you learned that - who the hell would need to re-learn into a different system? not at my almost 50yr old, anyway. younger folks who did not shoot - go ahead, why not. plus, i think all military now switched to the same mil/mil - so, it may be beneficial on some level for those who just getting into it all.

That's definitely a combat proven optic. It saw a decent amount of service as a personally procured optic within SOF. I just wish they would give it the AR-BDC3 reticle of their current Strike Eagle line. Though, maybe they thought that would syphon off too much from the interest in their Razor Gen 3.

i looked at razors and those gen2 pst in the shop, could not see any damn difference in the glass. turrets on razors are better, so, may be - by some small margin, a 5-25x still would be beneficial to go with a razor. for a capped 1-6x - no freaking way. it is internally a same damn thing, 95% of it.

i like my 5-25x also very much, turrets are very solid and feel very good, i have no ragrets whatsoever on both choices.

 

[243Proto]

you are missing the whole point of why to have a 1-6x scope in SFP. or, why to have a 1-6x scope at all.
if those guys would train you on running drills and tactical exercises, shooting while moving - you will see where SFP works. that specific 1-6x viper is very good for that.

in the end - all those scopes and reticles are only as good as your knowledge of shortcuts and an ability to operate them correctly. get one kind, get used to it, learn it well and then just shoot it.

Different strokes for different folks......If you're happy with a SFP scope then great

I cannot tolerate a reticle where the value of the hash marks differ on each magnification level

Doesnt really matter if all you're doing is shooting at 100 or even 200 yards......but as distance grows and bullet drop increases you get an incoherent mess and its impossible to calculate holdover

 

[PappyM3]

core of MOA - 1" per 100yds, 3" at 300yds. your 5-25x in 1/4 deg, so, knowing distance - that you also can use your reticle for, at 25x on FFP on a person wide target - you set the distance and they rotate as many clicks as needed - NOT LOOKING at the scope.
once you learned that - who the hell would need to re-learn into a different system? not at my almost 50yr old, anyway. younger folks who did not shoot - go ahead, why not. plus, i think all military now switched to the same mil/mil - so, it may be beneficial on some level for those who just getting into it all.


i looked at razors and those gen2 pst in the shop, could not see any damn difference in the glass. turrets on razors are better, so, may be - by some small margin, a 5-25x still would be beneficial to go with a razor. for a capped 1-6x - no freaking way. it is internally a same damn thing, 95% of it.

i like my 5-25x also very much, turrets are very solid and feel very good, i have no ragrets whatsoever on both choices.

The military has been mil based for A LONG time. The ACOGs and red dots are MOA adjustment, but those are set it and forget it. Anybody using non-BDC reticles and dialing knobs in the military is using MILs.

For zeroing and Service Rifle competitions, I still think in MOA. MILs may be hard to learn for range estimation if you're used to MOA, but the MIL system for reticle holds is super easy to learn and implement, even for those hardcore MOA folks.

 

[PappyM3]

depends upon your rifle.
1-6x is a 25-200yds scope, ideal for tactical and cqc engagements. i have it in the tavor x95, .223 and 5.56NATO
on a long range rifles - from 300yds+ - 5-25x, 5-30x, whatever - long heavy glass. bergara lrp 2.0 in 6.5CM

an in-between 3-15x is a neither one - some set it up on .308 rifles, as 15x is much nicer to shoot at 300yds, but, it lacks benefits of both 1-6x and 5-25x.
when i will make my .308 AR10 it will be set with a 3-15x - but only because i already have 2 other scopes i can use as well.

ideally a tavor needs to be on a prism or red dot for ideal work on up to 100yds engagements, and a .308 can use 1-6x. but, it depends upon your preferences.

for a class you can use either glass, as they will be covering basics and it will not matter what you got, fundamentals are the same.

You answered his question like you actually took the class already. You didn't and should probably let someone who took the class provide an answer.

Also, 6x will take you WAAAY past 200 yards. I've stretched 4x out past 800 yards. The only limiting factor is if you need a better target ID.

 

[paul73]

For zeroing and Service Rifle competitions, I still think in MOA. MILs may be hard to learn for range estimation if you're used to MOA, but the MIL system for reticle holds is super easy to learn and implement, even for those hardcore MOA folks.

every time i read about working MIL i do remember it 1-2 weeks max, then forget it all again.
it may be great, but, not a my cup of tea.

 

[paul73]

You answered his question like you actually took the class already. You didn't and should probably let someone who took the class provide an answer.

also true.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

for a class you can use either glass, as they will be covering basics and it will not matter what you got, fundamentals are the same.

This is not a fundamentals class.

 

[243Proto]

every time i read about working MIL i do remember it 1-2 weeks max, then forget it all again.
it may be great, but, not a my cup of tea.

You quoted the wrong person

I never posted that

 

[ChevyGuy91]

You answered his question like you actually took the class already. You didn't and should probably let someone who took the class provide an answer.

Also, 6x will take you WAAAY past 200 yards. I've stretched 4x out past 800 yards. The only limiting factor is if you need a better target ID.

Shit, I have made hits on 12" plate at 650 yards with just an eotech. All you need to know is how far away and where to hold for your rifle/ammo.

 

[paul73]

Shit, I have made hits on 12" plate at 650 yards with just an eotech. All you need to know is how far away and where to hold for your rifle/ammo.

shit, i also did hit a tank once with an SVD a klik away. it was even confirmed.
do whatever you want, i cannot see anything with 6x at 300 or 500 yds now. you win.

 

[PappyM3]

shit, i also did hit a tank once with an SVD a klik away. it was even confirmed.
do whatever you want, i cannot see anything with 6x at 300 or 500 yds now. you win.

We're not blowing smoke up your ass. Disregard the 4x ACOGs being put out to the bottom stadia line, disregard Service Rifle shooters using 4-4.5x out at 600. And look at current U.S. Army procurement for SDM rifles, which doctrinally are supposed to be effective at 600 meters. They chose 1-6x LPVOs. 600 yards -> 600 meters is a sweet spot for a 6x optic.

Are you correctly adjusting focus with the diopter adjustment? Sure, an ACOG may not have it, but most LPVOs and larger scopes do. If you know you're adjusting the diopter correctly, then perhaps you have some astigmatism to correct as well with glasses/contacts. Because I can tell you with certainty, that you are in the minority if you can only bring a 6x out to 200 yards.

 

[DarthRevan]

shit, i also did hit a tank once with an SVD a klik away. it was even confirmed.
do whatever you want, i cannot see anything with 6x at 300 or 500 yds now. you win.

I too, have shot guns before.
In fact, I do win.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

We're not blowing smoke up your ass. Disregard the 4x ACOGs being put out to the bottom stadia line, disregard Service Rifle shooters using 4-4.5x out at 600. And look at current U.S. Army procurement for SDM rifles, which doctrinally are supposed to be effective at 600 meters. They chose 1-6x LPVOs. 600 yards -> 600 meters is a sweet spot for a 6x optic.

Are you correctly adjusting focus with the diopter adjustment? Sure, an ACOG may not have it, but most LPVOs and larger scopes do. If you know you're adjusting the diopter correctly, then perhaps you have some astigmatism to correct as well with glasses/contacts. Because I can tell you with certainty, that you are in the minority if you can only bring a 6x out to 200 yards.

Just to drive this point, I am almost positive Rudy's personal rifle he was teaching with the weekend I was there had the Leopold Mk6 1-6x on it.

I personally like magnification on my SPR for better target ID, but you 100% can take 1-6x scopes well past 600.

 

[PappyM3]

Just to drive this point, I am almost positive Rudy's personal rifle he was teaching with the weekend I was there had the Leopold Mk6 1-6x on it.

I personally like magnification on my SPR for better target ID, but you 100% can take 1-6x scopes well past 600.

I'm on the verge of ordering a Mk6 1-6 since Vortex isn't releasing any Razor Gen IIIs to their mil discount program anytime soon it seems. Doesn't hurt that its a few ounces lighter too.

Agreed on extra magnification for target ID. For a general purpose carbine, if I can't positively ID a threat at range and don't have a broad ROE, I don't need to shoot it. So the extra magnification is more of a nice to have. For an SPR, yeah more specific use cases can make good use of the extra glass.

 

[xtry51]

SFP scopes are IMO completely useless and stupid.

The only reason companies make SFP is it is cheaper because it requires less pieces of glass. If you're looking at a SFP scope, stop. Buy a fixed power scope instead.

 

[PappyM3]

SFP scopes are IMO completely useless and stupid.

The only reason companies make SFP is it is cheaper because it requires less pieces of glass. If you're looking at a SFP scope, stop. Buy a fixed power scope instead.

Eh, I'm an FFP fan, but I have to disagree a bit. If the max magnification is 4x, I like SFP better. If the max magnification is 6x, it depends on my application. It's kind of a 50/50 for me at 6x.

SFP LPVOs are easier to acquire sight pictures at 1x and have larger eye boxes compared to similarly spec-ed FFP. The larger eye box isn't crucial at higher magnifications with a stable postiion, but become very useful when shooting at 1x from unconventional positions. And with the lower max-magnifications, I'm much less likely to need to use BDC/wind holds for anything but my max magnification.

8x+ though, absolutely FFP because you're not always going to be on max magnification when wanting to use BDC/wind holds.