Road Rage Shooting in WA- Female rider kills driver

[Matt-CZ]

Riding in Boston, I’ve thought a lot about what to do and how. You need both hands to operate the bike, so you have to decide almost instantly whether to stay on the bike and get out of there, or get off it. You have to dismount to the left and lower the kickstand, or drop the bike. Carrying in a place that’s secure and accessible with riding gear on isn’t that easy.

“Drop a gear and disappear” isn’t always an option in heavy traffic, commuters will try to kill you for lane splitting.

Agreed. My riding jacket was hip length. So I'd have to remove my thick gloves (especially if cold weather) and fully unzip my jacket if I wanted to draw. Of course, I can't use the throttle if I go for my pistol, so it's a choice like you say.

Of course, "drop a gear and disappear" carries a lot of risk for the rider. If I'm going 10-20 mph faster than traffic, I risk slamming into a car that changes lanes without noticing me. Running never struck me as the best option, even though most bikes widely outrun most cars.

 

[dingbat]

In the past, I've carried a collapsible baton for s.d. on the bike. Much easier to handle with gear on. Obviously has drawbacks when compared with a firearm, but some advantages as well imo.

 

[namedpipes]

Where you been man?

I don't get out much :/

 

[dingbat]

Unfortunately for those of us who ride, this event will probably cement in many drivers minds the opinion that we deserve to die simply because of the vehicle we choose to use. Drivers who hold that opinion already exist in droves, but I think they will use this story to rationalize acting on their impulses.

 

[namedpipes]

You basically have to submit to the beating in MA, since the courts typically hold both sides responsible no matter what. Shoot someone in that situation, especially if you're on a bike and can maneuver your way out through the breakdown lanes, and you've got a good chance of being charged with murder. We don't need self help here, remember.

The dead guy was parked IN the breakdown lane. She might not have had the ability to go past him without risking being rammed and once he was out the car and coming at her, she HAD to get off. It doesn't take much to destabilize a slow moving** motorcycle.

I'm going with two counts of Not Guilty. One on the "innerweb facts as we heard 'em" and one on the basis of her inherent innocence.

** I don't mean her bike is slow, just that she's starting from a dead stop and even if she had a vector to go in, if he managed to push her or the bike frame in the wrong way, she would go down.

 

[Matt-CZ]

Unfortunately for those of us who ride, this event will probably cement in many drivers minds the opinion that we deserve to die simply because of the vehicle we choose to use. Drivers who hold that opinion already exist in droves, but I think they will use this story to rationalize acting on their impulses.

Non-riders don't truly appreciate this. I've had so many drivers screw with me on the roads for literally no reason. People would swerve at me and tailgate even though I was in the far right lane on an empty road. For many, the allure of a vulnerable motorcycle is too tempting. Now that I drive a car, no one gives me grief.

 

[dingbat]

Non-riders don't truly appreciate this. I've had so many drivers screw with me on the roads for literally no reason. People would swerve at me and tailgate even though I was in the far right lane on an empty road. For many, the allure of a vulnerable motorcycle is too tempting. Now that I drive a car, no one gives me grief.

Yup. It always amazes me the point people are willing to go to over some imagined slight based on the vehicle you choose to operate. I've had some great conversations with a friend of mine who is a contractor and alternates between driving a Ram 3500 with a ladder rack and a Toyota Prius depending on his needs for the day. The difference in how he is treated by others when driving either vehicle is astounding. Being on the bike is just a whole other level and yeah, nobody gets it until they've experienced it.
Ever notice how you don't run in to a whole lot of antis on motorcycles?

Eta: Where following too closely is concerned, I often give that one a pass as I believe it is due to an optical effect many do not pick up on. When following another car or truck, the amount of visible pavement reduces sharply as you get too close to the vehicle in front of you. Behind a bike, that doesn't happen because of the narrowness, and open sides of the vehicle allowing more light to illuminate the pavement below them. You just don't have the visual cues behind a bike that you do behind a car. Hell, Without making a deliberate effort to maintain proper space, I sometimes find myself too close to a motorcycle in front of me. When I'm being followed too closely, I start doing some mild counter steering excersise while keeping to my lane. Folks tend to back wayyyyy the f*** off, and quick!

 

[Matt-CZ]

Yup. It always amazes me the point people are willing to go to over some imagined slight based on the vehicle you choose to operate. I've had some great conversations with a friend of mine who is a contractor and alternates between driving a Ram 3500 with a ladder rack and a Toyota Prius depending on his needs for the day. The difference in how he is treated by others when driving either vehicle is astounding. Being on the bike is just a whole other level and yeah, nobody gets it until they've experienced it.
Ever notice how you don't run in to a whole lot of antis on motorcycles?

I've also noticed a big change in myself driving a car vs riding a motorcycle. Driving a car feels a bit unreal. The road is quiet, there's no wind. You're looking out a window. It's almost like watching a TV screen. With a car, I need to keep a close watch on the speedometer, or else it's easy to lose track of how fast you are driving. When riding a bike, you are very aware that you are moving very fast. Wind blasts over you, road noise and the engine is loud. The bike vibrates. After a while on the same bike, you barely even need the instruments.

I think the disconnect from reality in cars is part of the problem with road rage. It's very easy to forget that you're moving very fast. It's very easy to forget what you're doing is inherently dangerous. The consequences of your actions feel remote, which is the opposite of reality.

 

[slap shot]

Click here to support Aubrey Taylors Legal Fund organized by Justin Campbell

Legal fund for what? No charges being brought. Funny that one person is pasting her tweets though. Lol

 

[Toast]

The whole unarmed thing is newengland nonsense.. put your hands on people expect to get shot

That's a variant on "An armed society is a polite society."

 

[drgrant]

I wouldn't be so sure about mutual combat. On a bike, you're always "outside". You don't have the option to stay inside your locked car and call the police. If someone gets out of your car, the prudent move is to dismount and stop the engine. Don't want to end up pinned under 500lbs of hot motor when some road raging tool pushes you over.

Doesn't sound like her bike was inoperative... then again without context she could have been pinned in... that pretty much changes everything if that was the case...

 

[dingbat]

Doesn't sound like her bike was inoperative... then again without context she could have been pinned in... that pretty much changes everything if that was the case...

In many states, you don't have a duty to retreat if you're in a place you are lawfully allowed to be, so it may change nothing.

Eta: For example where I live justified self defense must pass a four part test:

1. Believe you are about to be killed, seriously injured, or sexually assaulted in a way that could cause you to be killed or seriously injured.
2. A reasonable person would have to agree.
3. You can not be the instigator of the conflict or continue it if the other person disengages.
4. Force can not be excessive or greater than reasonably needed.

Pass all four and you're good to go.

 

[Matt-CZ]

In many states, you don't have a duty to retreat if you're in a place you are lawfully allowed to be, so it may change nothing.

From my reading, Washington state has no duty to retreat. Of course, in stopped traffic, one could argue that retreat is impossible.

 

[drgrant]

In many states, you don't have a duty to retreat if you're in a place you are lawfully allowed to be, so it may change nothing.

That is true, but even with syg in place it's still going to affect how people examine the conflict.

 

[dingbat]

Agreed.

That is true, but even with syg in place it's still going to affect how people examine the conflict.

 

[rwl1955]

I've had more than one cager come after me while riding because they did something stupid almost killing me and I let then know it. Once traffic comes to a stop you're screwed because the cager has a deadly weapon, his vehicle, and you're pretty defenseless. Some drivers are just stupid and some think it's fun to f*** with a motorcyclist. I ride a BMW and wear full gear so it's not like I'm some Hell's Angel wannabee weaving in and out of traffic and acting like an ahole. Incident on RT.2 years ago a driver pulls onto 2 from 495 and decides to move into left lane while I'm there. I swerve, beep my horn, make eye contact and he goes crazy. Played dodge the car all the way to State Police Barracks in Concord where I pulled in and went to the desk. The driver was sitting in traffic out front, told the Statie what happened and he told me my word against his. He slid me a copy of a RMV complaint form and told me to send it to Registry. I did and never heard from them. Last time I ask the cops for help. I should have beat the shit out of him, but then I would have lost my job and permit. Was not carrying at the time because I was on the way to work.

 

[Boris]

I've had more than one cager come after me while riding because they did something stupid almost killing me and I let then know it. Once traffic comes to a stop you're screwed because the cager has a deadly weapon, his vehicle, and you're pretty defenseless. Some drivers are just stupid and some think it's fun to f*** with a motorcyclist. I ride a BMW and wear full gear so it's not like I'm some Hell's Angel wannabee weaving in and out of traffic and acting like an ahole. Incident on RT.2 years ago a driver pulls onto 2 from 495 and decides to move into left lane while I'm there. I swerve, beep my horn, make eye contact and he goes crazy. Played dodge the car all the way to State Police Barracks in Concord where I pulled in and went to the desk. The driver was sitting in traffic out front, told the Statie what happened and he told me my word against his. He slid me a copy of a RMV complaint form and told me to send it to Registry. I did and never heard from them. Last time I ask the cops for help. I should have beat the shit out of him, but then I would have lost my job and permit. Was not carrying at the time because I was on the way to work.

video registrators are good for these kind of things, but even then don't care.

 

[rwl1955]

Never, EVER, stop that close to the vehicle in front of you. ALWAYS have an escape route. The jack@ss coming up behind you may not see your bike superimposed against the car in front of you because he's too busy changing the radio station and hit you. Having an extra few feet to move up last second or be able to squirt in to the space between lanes (even if there's not enough room to actually GO anywhere) may be what saves your a$$. Ask me how I know...

*******
Yup, me too.

 

[rwl1955]

video registrators are good for these kind of things, but even then don't care.

*********
I would mount a Go Pro but I work on Hanscom AFB and that's a no-go.

 

[Boris]

*********
I would mount a Go Pro but I work on Hanscom AFB and that's a no-go.

it's ok if you keep all the video feeds on your local home server

 

[rwl1955]

it's ok if you keep all the video feeds on your local home server

******
Yup, thinking of a helmet mounted Go Pro but I would have to stop before pulling up to the gate and hide the camera in my saddlebags.

 

[eboos]

Legal fund for what? No charges being brought. Funny that one person is pasting her tweets though. Lol

Not saying that this legal fund is legitimate in any way, but

This thing is not over for her any time soon.

 

[rwl1955]

Not saying that this legal fund is legitimate in any way, but

This thing is not over for her any time soon.

*******
Hard to believe she could possibly be charged since He exited his vehicle and accosted her. She was riding a motorcycle and was blocked in by traffic, had no where to go, female w/a huge size differential. One picture showed her in full leathers and someone said she was a Soldier. For some reason motorcycle riders bring on full road rage from frustrated auto drivers and unfortunately I can attest to that. Hopefully she was fully licensed for the bike and handgun.

 

[eboos]

*******
Hard to believe she could possibly be charged since He exited his vehicle and accosted her.

Even if she is not charged, I doubt that she has seen the end of her legal troubles arising out of this incident. While innocent all day long, that won't stop the family from filing a wrongful death case.

 

[rwl1955]

as a biker i always felt anyone on a bike killed by a car should be considered assault with deadly weapon, or murder.
this should be interesting for sure.....

********
correct, a vehicle is a deadly weapon and it pisses me off that these idiot drivers can wreck someone else's vehicle and injure them and most of the time come away with nothing more than a ticket. If we injured someone with our firearm accidentally we'd be charged, convicted and do time nevermind never being able to own a firearm again.

 

[Rat187]

If your on a bike wearing leathers a full helmet/gloves in stopped traffic woman or not...an enraged driver exiting his 'cage' would on you in seconds. Think of the po-po 21 foot shoot rule. This was a no no brainer apparently for the police on scene, but here comes the tort sh*t storm. Tough lady, nerves of steel, bad luck to run into 'wanna be' tough guy...effhim

45 years of riding

 

[drgrant]

I wouldn't be so sure about mutual combat. On a bike, you're always "outside". You don't have the option to stay inside your locked car and call the police. If someone gets out of your car, the prudent move is to dismount and stop the engine. Don't want to end up pinned under 500lbs of hot motor when some road raging tool pushes you over.

I'm just speaking in general terms WRT road rage (eg, the events leading up to the
altercation) As more details come out about this its apparent that she got trapped.

Also, thinking more critically I'm more likely to give the person on the bike the benefit of the
doubt- most of them aren't going to try to mess with cars when they're that vulnerable- EG, most people
with a bike aren't so retarded as to try to brake check a car or truck with their bike....

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Think of the po-po 21 foot shoot rule. This was a no no brainer apparently for the police on scene, but here comes the tort sh*t storm.

Contrary to popular belief most SD shootings don't end up in civil court, regardless of Mas Ayoob's corner case glue fume articles, etc. I can't see an ambulance chaser taking this one at all.

-Mike

 

[MGnoob]

I hate to say it but she can definitely add the "im a girl defense" to her list of outs..i mean shit if they had ever met or she thinks she saw a picture of him online once.... its a clear case of "domestic violence".

Im sure she's not laughing about it, along with a long list of people who this has affected... quick decision can have quick consequences... so keep your hands to yourself unless its worth dieing over or your defending yourself.

 

[Matt_SERE]

According to her post in https://www.facebook.com/groups/pnwriders/
I am advised to not speak of any details about the case that is not already public knowledge. What I will address is the statement of "both vehicles pulled over" this is 100% false information provided by the news and State Patrol. When the police and news arrived on scene, about 15-20 minutes later the our were already pulled on the shoulder by 2 witnesses to prevent blocking traffic in the HOV lane. At the time of the incident I along with the other vehicle were in the HOV lane stopped when the man got out of his vehicle and approached me. I want to make it 100% clear that I in no way antagonized this man to get out of his vehicle. I was in front of him for a few miles before his initial rage started (because I was leaving a cushion between me and the car in front of me and he did not like that).